That's assuming every Circle is the same. When not every Circle is. Which is exactly what Vivienne says. Your post, whether intended or not, makes it sound like every Circle's conditions were like those in Kirkwall. When Kirkwall was the absolute worst of the worst, as far as I know.
And yet, that maggot Vivienne lumps them all together and literally says they're "supporting mass murder".
The problem I have with Vivienne is that unlike other characters (Solas, Dorian, Blackwall, Cassandra...) Vivienne doesn't seem to have alternate dialogue for if she's low on approval - so if you disagree with her she just ends up never speaking to you, reminds me of the issue with never finding out Meredeith's motive in DA2 if you didn't side with the templars. In my first playthrough I despised her but in my second playthrough now that she's actually talking to me she's far more interesting.
The problem I have with Vivienne is that unlike other characters (Solas, Dorian, Blackwall, Cassandra...) Vivienne doesn't seem to have alternate dialogue for if she's low on approval - so if you disagree with her she just ends up never speaking to you, reminds me of the issue with never finding out Meredeith's motive in DA2 if you didn't side with the templars. In my first playthrough I despised her but in my second playthrough now that she's actually talking to me she's far more interesting.
You find out Meredith's motives just fine. She's crazy and evil.
... Oh, you mean that crap with her sister? That was a sob story excuse, not a motive. Her motive was crazy and evil.
That's assuming every Circle is the same. When not every Circle is. Which is exactly what Vivienne says. Your post, whether intended or not, makes it sound like every Circle's conditions were like those in Kirkwall. When Kirkwall was the absolute worst of the worst, as far as I know.
Indeed we have pretty clear evidence about that just from the differences between Kirkwall's circle and Fereldan's circle which even after having the tower over run with blood mages, abominations and demons never got remotely as bad as Kirkwall or how Ostwick's circle being known for being sedate, even allowing some of the mages to visit their families with little issue.
And yet, that maggot Vivienne lumps them all together and literally says they're "supporting mass murder".
She says all rebels, meaning the ones who are against the Circles and willing to fight authority for what they believe in (in so, following in the footsteps of Anders from DA2), are supporting mass murder. Which is a perfectly valid perspective considering that what instigated the rebellion in the first place was, in fact, mass murder, during the Kirkwall Rebellion.
She doesn't say it of all Circle mages. Just those that rebel against the system.
She says all rebels, meaning the ones who are against the Circles and willing to fight authority for what they believe in (in so, following in the footsteps of Anders from DA2), are supporting mass murder. Which is a perfectly valid perspective considering that what instigated the rebellion in the first place was, in fact, mass murder, during the Kirkwall Rebellion.
She doesn't say it of all Circle mages. Just those that rebel against the system.
Yes. Mass murder by the templars on a Circle that had nothing to do with Anders. Actually, genocide would be a more appropriate term. That's the authority they're fighting. Anyone that thinks people shouldn't fight for the right to not be murdered on the whims of a crazy drug addict can go to hell.
Well given that Cole can pick up from Vivienne's memory how the rebel mages killed other mages for not joining them and then there's how they treat the tranquil its understandable how other mages can dislike them.
She's great!
I also hate her character. She's great at making me hate her.
Yes. Mass murder by the templars on a Circle that had nothing to do with Anders. Actually, genocide would be a more appropriate term. That's the authority they're fighting. Anyone that thinks people shouldn't fight for the right to not be murdered on the whims of a crazy drug addict can go to hell.
Umm, no. Mass murder by Anders. Who, you know... blew up the Chantry.
Umm, no. Mass murder by Anders. Who, you know... blew up the Chantry.
When he blows up someone that didn't have it coming, I'll care.
When he blows up someone that didn't have it coming, I'll care.
Question: How did Elthina have it coming?
When he blows up someone that didn't have it coming, I'll care.
That's not the point, though. The point is that Anders did commit mass murder and it was this act that instigated the rebellion. In Vivienne's eyes, that means the rebels are simply approving of mass murder because it provided them with an opportunity to rebel.
Vivenne is a well written character, granted, but I still hate her. I had her in my party to see what she would gain approval on;
1. She thinks the goodwill of the peasants is dubious and would rather accept gold. This was the completion of helping the refugees in the Hinterlands. I did NOT gain any approval from her whatsoever by helping people. I get approval from Cassandra, Iron Bull, Sera, Solas and Varric and I think Blackwall to a point. Didn't have Dorian at the time when I completed it. Cole likes it whenever you help people regardless.
Vivenne? Not once. She doesn't care for the people. She cares for herself and want she wants. She is a selfish b****.
2. She is a "Mistress" to a Duke. She believes marriages is for political gain. That is a fancy and misleading way of saying she is a w**** and loves being one.
3. Her beliefs concerning mages and the chantry are essentially irrelevant considering the fact that the entire point behind all the arguments concerning what mages should and should not be allowed to do is a religious/moral one. Not everyone will agree.
The situation only amounts to whether or not people wish to fight and kill for their beliefs over those who would disagree. On that point, Vivienne's stance is ultimately about her political gain in the first place; which is completely consistent with her character. Good one, Bioware.
Just a few points and I am sure I could come up with more. I find it interesting that the thread took off like wild-fire. At least you guys are passionate about debating the issue.
Hah.
Question: How did Elthina have it coming?
True, Elthina deserved to be crucified or something. Explosion is way too quick. She needed to suffer for what she allowed her templars to do in Kirkwall. At least Meredith had the excuse of being crazy. Elthina was in her right mind.
Oh, let me guess, you buy that incredibly, mindblowingly stupid "neutrality" stance of hers? Yeah, no, authority figures don't get to play "neutral." The Grand Cleric is supposed to keep the templars in line. If you're being mugged and a cop walks up and says "woah, I'm staying neutral!" and walks away while they break your ribs, then the cop isn't doing his job and is responsible for what he allowed to happen. And Elthina allowed countless atrocities, refusing to even condemn the rapist templars publicly.
That's not the point, though. The point is that Anders did commit mass murder and it was this act that instigated the rebellion. In Vivienne's eyes, that means the rebels are simply approving of mass murder because it provided them with an opportunity to rebel.
So you missed the part where they explained there were multiple causes to the rebellion and it would've happened even without Anders? 'kay.
Vivienne should be made tranquil.
So you missed the part where they explained there were multiple causes to the rebellion and it would've happened even without Anders? 'kay.
Vivienne should be made tranquil.
Who's 'they'? What is this 'part' you speak of? Not that it even matters, because in the eyes of a lot of people that still is the case. The Kirkwall Rebellion happened and was the cause, in the end. Whether or not the War would've started eventually is irrelevant to the timeline.
And I'm not even going to comment on that. Though, did you miss the part where they explained the Rite of Tranquility can be reversed?
When he blows up someone that didn't have it coming, I'll care.
Yes because the only remaining reasonable authority figure in the city and countless innocent people along with her clearly needed to be murdered by a insane abomination. I'd hate to think what you think is unjustified murder.
Vivi didn't have a problem with the rebel mages wanting a better life, she had a problem with how they went on about it.
That is, by literally, mass murdering people who had nothing to do with what the templars were doing them.
I find it funny if Vivienne becomes Divine that she is the only candidate who doesn't openly support the Inquisition apart from Negative approval Cassandra.
What does this even mean? You know there's only 3 divine candidates right? 2 out of 3 of them not openly supporting the Inquisition means what?
Oh and pretty sure my ending slide tells me than Divine Vivi and my quizzie are very much still BBFs/we have an alliance.
I also like how when the conscripted mages tried their crap again she was like "nah. not having it." and took care of things. Someone should have made that call back during DA2. 
In regards to that video of her moving furniture, I kind of also agree with Vivienne. What's the big deal if she moves or swaps furniture? It's not the furniture from the quizzie's room so why get in a bother over it? If Vivi is using it, she should be able to pick what she likes. It's coming from her own money and not the Inquisition's coffers. She's right in saying that the quizzie is being petty for confronting her over something so small when there's a lot more going on that should be addressed.
Who's 'they'? What is this 'part' you speak of? Not that it even matters, because in the eyes of a lot of people that still is the case. The Kirkwall Rebellion happened and was the cause, in the end. Whether or not the War would've started eventually is irrelevant to the timeline.
They wrote an entire book about other things causing the rebellion. In fact, the Seekers keeping it secret that the rite of tranquility can be reversed is generally accepted as the primary cause if one had to say a single thing was the cause. Deal with it.
Everytime the topic of Elthina comes up, I'm in awe of how amazingly gullible people are. Her playing "neutral" has literally the exact same effect as her siding with the templars, except it makes her look better than openly supporting people like Alrik. She knows what she's doing. I have no idea how anyone else doesn't, but here we are.
True, Elthina deserved to be crucified or something. Explosion is way too quick. She needed to suffer for what she allowed her templars to do in Kirkwall. At least Meredith had the excuse of being crazy. Elthina was in her right mind.
Oh, let me guess, you buy that incredibly, mindblowingly stupid "neutrality" stance of hers? Yeah, no, authority figures don't get to play "neutral." The Grand Cleric is supposed to keep the templars in line. If you're being mugged and a cop walks up and says "woah, I'm staying neutral!" and walks away while they break your ribs, then the cop isn't doing his job and is responsible for what he allowed to happen. And Elthina allowed countless atrocities, refusing to even condemn the rapist templars publicly.
You do realize that Meredith is known to keep secrets from others when it suits her, right? Who's the say she told Elthina anything about what was really going on in the Gallows?
Cullen says that Meredith nurtured his hatred of mages when he was in Kirkwall, which implies that she also did the same to many other Templars in Kirkwall. The only Templars that seem to have been punished were those who thought like Thrask in that Meredith needed to be replaced. Elthina seemed to be the only authority that Meredith listened to, so not telling her anything would let Meredith run roughshod around Kirkwall.
If she was truly pro-Templar, she would've supported the Divine sending an Exalted March on Kirkwall. She knew that the situation between the mages and Templars was going to reach a boiling point and she stayed regardless because she wanted to help the people caught in the middle. If she knew what was exactly going on in the Gallows, I'm pretty damn sure she would've stepped in. Meredith likely would've been replaced, which supports why Meredith probably didn't tell Elthina anything.
Also, that Tranquil comment? Kind of hypocritical for someone so focused on being pro-mage. Just saying.
They wrote an entire book about other things causing the rebellion. In fact, the Seekers keeping it secret that the rite of tranquility can be reversed is generally accepted as the primary cause if one had to say a single thing was the cause. Deal with it.
Oh, so by 'they' you mean BioWare. Alright, got it.
The problem is, though, Vivienne didn't read Asunder. It could be that when Vivienne speaks of the mass murder (I'm not sure when exactly this happens in the game), she has no clue about the reversal of the Rite of Tranquility as being kept a secret. I'm not stating here what I think to be the cause of the war. I'm simply approaching the matter from Madame de Fer's perspective. As in, her being an inhabitant of Thedas, one without the knowledge a player would have about certain events.
Oh, so by 'they' you mean BioWare. Alright, got it.
The problem is, though, Vivienne didn't read Asunder. It could be that when Vivienne speaks of the mass murder (I'm not sure when exactly this happens in the game), she has no clue about the reversal of the Rite of Tranquility as being kept a secret. I'm not stating here what I think to be the cause of the war. I'm simply approaching the matter from Madame de Fer's perspective. As in, her being an inhabitant of Thedas, one without the knowledge a player would have about certain events.
How could she not know about it? In order for it to be a cause of the rebellion, it had to be public knowledge. Otherwise, the mages don't know about it and thus they can't get angered by it and rebel over it. She was a First Enchanter. She knew.
Assumption is the mother of all errors and great engineering disasters.
How could she not know about it? In order for it to be a cause of the rebellion, it had to be public knowledge. Otherwise, the mages don't know about it and thus they can't get angered by it and rebel over it. She was a First Enchanter. She knew.
You did read Asunder, didn't you? Because the search for a cure for Tranquility wasn't exactly public knowledge. Wynne, Rhys and Evangeline did what they did under orders from the Divine, and meanwhile the tensions in the White Spire rose. When they got back, they presented what they had found to the Divine, who then had the information sent to every Circle of Magi and proceeded to call for a conclave between the First Enchanters at the White Spire.
Elven of them arrived. Fiona then called for a vote on independence, but before the vote could be held the Lord Seeker interrupted, accusing Rhys for having murdered Pharamond, who was the one mage that had managed to reverse his own Tranquility. He attempted to disband the Conclave, but the mages refused to belive Rhys had actually done it and they stood up for him. Fighting breaks out, and there we have it. Rebellion.
The rebel mages then proceed to travel to Andoral's Reach in the northwest and officially declare their independence, while the Lord Seeker declares the Nevarran Accord null and void.
Nowhere in the book has it been said that the Seekers knew about the reversal of the Rite. That revelation only came in Inquisition. So no, Vivienne did not know.
But this all irrelevant because, once again, what truly instigated the rebellion in Vivienne's eyes is Anders' act of mass murder.
True, Elthina deserved to be crucified or something. Explosion is way too quick. She needed to suffer for what she allowed her templars to do in Kirkwall. At least Meredith had the excuse of being crazy. Elthina was in her right mind.
Oh, let me guess, you buy that incredibly, mindblowingly stupid "neutrality" stance of hers? Yeah, no, authority figures don't get to play "neutral." The Grand Cleric is supposed to keep the templars in line. If you're being mugged and a cop walks up and says "woah, I'm staying neutral!" and walks away while they break your ribs, then the cop isn't doing his job and is responsible for what he allowed to happen. And Elthina allowed countless atrocities, refusing to even condemn the rapist templars publicly.
So you missed the part where they explained there were multiple causes to the rebellion and it would've happened even without Anders? 'kay.
Vivienne should be made tranquil.
I personally think that Elthina was trying to make the best of a bad situation. There were a lot of blood magic abuses in Kirkwall so many were willing to convince themselves that Meridith had reasonable cause for her actions. She didn't but it's easy to convince yourself of that in her position rather then risk making things worse.
I don't think Elthina deserved to be killed at all. That said, she completely failed her charges by not forcing the issue to be resolved sooner, and peacefully. Both the Circle and the Templars were supposed to be under the authority of the Chantry, so it was her responsibility to bring both Meridith and Orsino in-line. She should have taken action, she decided instead to do nothing.
In the end not even The Champion was allowed to choose a neutral option. Believe me, if I had the ability tear down both sides and tell them both they were being stupid I would have. So if we don't have the option to choose neutrality I don't see why Elthina should be any different.
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