776 réponses à ce sujet

[Andreas Amell]

Because Sera is a close minded child full of hypocrisy.

Sera is the easiest to misunderstand. If fans thought they were getting THE Red Jenny they'll be sorely disappointed. She has attitude problems but she's also from the poor and downtrodden. I wouldn't say she's the equivalent of Lizbeth Salander because she's not even that smart or that cool. But she was good enough to realize the world was in danger and joined up with the Inquisition. However, she never thought that the current status quo should change either, probably because she also accepts the idea that's the way it is. Think of her as the Dragon Age version of Fagin or the Artful Dodger.

[Shahadem]

Indeed we have pretty clear evidence about that just from the differences between Kirkwall's circle and Fereldan's circle which even after having the tower over run with blood mages, abominations and demons never got remotely as bad as Kirkwall or how Ostwick's circle being known for being sedate, even allowing some of the mages to visit their families with little issue.

 

And yet the mages there felt it was worth risking possession by demons in order to gain their freedom despite living in the more "lavish" Ferelden circle. Anders alone tried to escape 7 times even know he knew that he risked death or torture or stupification for doing so. Simply because conditions weren't as bad doesn't mean they were good. Simpy being denied one's freedom is bad enough.

[TruffleMeister]

Can someone explain in-depth point to point why exactly they hate Vivienne. I'm 76 hours in, and I can't find any reason to hate her as much as everyone else here. Also I've never received any disapproval from her. I always get a "Vivienne Approves" or "Vivienne Greatly Approves" I just don't see how anyone dislikes her. She's like Solas to me, no matter what I do they're always approving of what I do...well not everything, cuz Solas gets a bit whiney at some parts, but still.

[Ashagar]

And yet there were mages who were quite happy and a number of the Templars seemed to care about their charges unlike many of Kirkwall's templars. Also there are other circles like Ostwick which didn't rebel at all, at the very lest it shows that conditions were indeed different at different circles.

[BronzTrooper]

Can someone explain in-depth point to point why exactly they hate Vivienne. I'm 76 hours in, and I can't find any reason to hate her as much as everyone else here. Also I've never received any disapproval from her. I always get a "Vivienne Approves" or "Vivienne Greatly Approves" I just don't see how anyone dislikes her. She's like Solas to me, no matter what I do they're always approving of what I do...well not everything, cuz Solas gets a bit whiney at some parts, but still.

 

It has more to do with their views conflicting with Vivienne's to the point where they can't stand her.  I dislike Vivienne, but I wouldn't go so far as to say I hate her.  It's similar to how people are so varied in their views of Anders, Fenris, Isabela, Merrill, Alistair, Oghren, etc.

[Kreidian]

I will say this about Vivienne specifically. I Love the character, specifically because she's such a terrible person. Not in the simple sense like Corypheus is. 

 

She's selfish, ambitious, power hungry, attention seeking hypocrite. 

 

"Oh yes, look at all those terrible mages who cry about their poor treatment, why they can't even look past the wall of Templars threatening to kill, torture, and/or rape them to see the bigger picture. Which I can see clearly from my suite in the Duke's Massive Mansion." She didn't live under nearly the same conditions as most mages and still blames them for everything that went wrong. ( She all too quickly blames Cole for antagonizing the mages with his early murders but completely refuses to even acknowledge the pain and suffering that attracted Cole there in the first place. ) She clearly doesn't much care about making things better, only about removing the chaos that threatens her precious court standing. 

 

But she's also extremely smart, capable, determined and extremely skilled at dealing with anything that's put in front of her. She will always have good advice for you which she provides in earnest for the simple reason that you asked. She accepts nothing less then the best possible solution, so you always know what you're getting from her even if you don't agree. She handles the people around her with such skill and finesse, and she never allows anything to so much as fluster her. Even Empress Celene couldn't match her in that regard.

 

So I have great respect for Vivienne, and would always welcome her skill and counsel. However I still don't like her and would never be friends with her.

 

But then that's why I think she's such an awesome character.

[TruffleMeister]

My thing is I agree with Vivienne but I don't want to. The lore and history of Dragon Age has never shown us the grey with letting mages live freely. It's either on one side of two extremes, chaos or submission. In Dragon Age II, and if you do certain sidequests in Inquisition it shows how mages abuse their power, use blood magic, or go crazy. Mage freedom will inevitably result in a Tevinter Imperium, and Mage suppression will result in enduring resentment and division. There's no middle ground no way to win. Even if you argue, not all mages are bad, but the majority ruins the view of the minority. It's an endless argument that has no universally beneficial result.

[BronzTrooper]

My thing is I agree with Vivienne but I don't want to. The lore and history of Dragon Age has never shown us the grey with letting mages live freely. It's either on one side of two extremes, chaos or submission. In Dragon Age II, and if you do certain sidequests in Inquisition it shows how mages abuse their power, use blood magic, or go crazy. Mage freedom will inevitably result in a Tevinter Imperium, and Mage suppression will result in enduring resentment and division. There's no middle ground no way to win. Even if you argue, not all mages are bad, but the majority ruins the view of the minority. It's an endless argument that has no universally beneficial result.

 

Considering how a mage living peacefully outside the Circle doesn't leave much in the way of possible side-quests, it makes sense that the mage/magic-related side quests involve magic gone wrong or mages gone insane/power-hungry.  Conflict is what makes a story, not contentment.

[TruffleMeister]

Considering how a mage living peacefully outside the Circle doesn't leave much in the way of possible side-quests, it makes sense that the mage/magic-related side quests involve magic gone wrong or mages gone insane/power-hungry.  Conflict is what makes a story, not contentment.

Granted, yes, I'll give you that, but I still abide by my point, and Vivi is still my sugar momma.

[TheLittleBird]

Granted, yes, I'll give you that, but I still abide by my point, and Vivi is still my sugar momma.

 

Vivienne's everyone's sugar momma, if they want it to be so. ^^

[Andreas Amell]

My thing is I agree with Vivienne but I don't want to. The lore and history of Dragon Age has never shown us the grey with letting mages live freely. It's either on one side of two extremes, chaos or submission. In Dragon Age II, and if you do certain sidequests in Inquisition it shows how mages abuse their power, use blood magic, or go crazy. Mage freedom will inevitably result in a Tevinter Imperium, and Mage suppression will result in enduring resentment and division. There's no middle ground no way to win. Even if you argue, not all mages are bad, but the majority ruins the view of the minority. It's an endless argument that has no universally beneficial result.

 

I thought the Mages' Collective in Origins showed a gray area. They bribed a templar to leave them alone but they also took down anyone who was a blood mage.

 

Inquisition has a more rounded game experience on the issue of mage threats. Let's also not forget that Wynne herself was pro-Circle until her son was framed and Lambert turned on the First Enchanters.

[Treacherous J Slither]

My thing is I agree with Vivienne but I don't want to. The lore and history of Dragon Age has never shown us the grey with letting mages live freely. It's either on one side of two extremes, chaos or submission. In Dragon Age II, and if you do certain sidequests in Inquisition it shows how mages abuse their power, use blood magic, or go crazy. Mage freedom will inevitably result in a Tevinter Imperium, and Mage suppression will result in enduring resentment and division. There's no middle ground no way to win. Even if you argue, not all mages are bad, but the majority ruins the view of the minority. It's an endless argument that has no universally beneficial result.

 

I have played the same games as you and saw no evidence that free mages would result in another Tevinter Imperium. None whatsoever.

 

There are sidequests in which the mages you meet don't try to kill you. Firing the apprentices in DAO, helping the botanist in the woods in DAOA, fetch quest stuff in DA2 and DAI. I'm sure there's more but I cannot recall them all at the moment.

 

Many nations or areas in Thedas don't have mages in Circles like Rivain, the Chasind, and the Dalish. Mages in these areas and groups have autonomy and yet no evil blood magic fueled empire has been created. Some of the mages in Rivain actually allow themselves to become possessed ffs and still no evil empire nor is the place ravaged by monstrous Fade creatures.

 

There was also a time after the fall of the Imerium and before the creation of the Circles in which most mages of Thedas were free. Yet we hear no tales of terrible magic related events taking place.

 

Given the rise of the mage/Templar war one can surmise that the creation of the Circles only made things worse and not better.

Modifié par JSlither, 17 décembre 2014 - 03:44 .

[robertthebard]

My thing is I agree with Vivienne but I don't want to. The lore and history of Dragon Age has never shown us the grey with letting mages live freely. It's either on one side of two extremes, chaos or submission. In Dragon Age II, and if you do certain sidequests in Inquisition it shows how mages abuse their power, use blood magic, or go crazy. Mage freedom will inevitably result in a Tevinter Imperium, and Mage suppression will result in enduring resentment and division. There's no middle ground no way to win. Even if you argue, not all mages are bad, but the majority ruins the view of the minority. It's an endless argument that has no universally beneficial result.

Actually, making Viv Divine will result in the Tevinter Imperium. You now have a mage ruling the second most powerful organization in Thedas. If she were truly interested in preserving the status quo, she would have refused the appointment, and went back to the Circle as First Enchanter. That's not what she was interested in preserving though, she was interested in preserving her ability to lord it over people with her magic, and now she's in the ultimate position to do so.

[Kinsz]

Actually, making Viv Divine will result in the Tevinter Imperium. You now have a mage ruling the second most powerful organization in Thedas. If she were truly interested in preserving the status quo, she would have refused the appointment, and went back to the Circle as First Enchanter. That's not what she was interested in preserving though, she was interested in preserving her ability to lord it over people with her magic, and now she's in the ultimate position to do so.

How exactly would she turn Orlais and Ferelden to Tevinter ( a nation she despises ? if you bothered to have her in your party you'd know that ) , Vivienne's goal is to restore the circle and have templars back to watch the mages thats a fact not some baseless opinion stemming from hate/dislike.

[Thiefy]

Actually, making Viv Divine will result in the Tevinter Imperium. You now have a mage ruling the second most powerful organization in Thedas. If she were truly interested in preserving the status quo, she would have refused the appointment, and went back to the Circle as First Enchanter. That's not what she was interested in preserving though, she was interested in preserving her ability to lord it over people with her magic, and now she's in the ultimate position to do so.

Yeah I'm pretty sure my slide didn't say that when I got her as mine divine. 

 

She also never said everything needs to go back to exactly as it was before the Inquisition. She did say the circle system needed reform. That's exactly what she does.

[DarthEmpress]

I love Vivienne.  She's gorgeous, intelligent, fierce, arrogant, and a ******.  I can't tell if she's insulting me or praising me, and somehow I  LOVE HER  She's the only one I truly hope never becomes an antagonist.  She's like the Wicked Queen meets Maleficient meets Galadriel.  You don't want to mess with that.

[FaWa]

I LOVE Vivienne. She's a star. I could rant for hours but I'll spare everyone the fantarding.

 

That is all.

[robertthebard]

How exactly would she turn Orlais and Ferelden to Tevinter ( a nation she despises ? if you bothered to have her in your party you'd know that ) , Vivienne's goal is to restore the circle and have templars back to watch the mages thats a fact not some baseless opinion stemming from hate/dislike.

Magic exists to serve man, not to rule over him.

What's that from? Oh yeah, the Chant, right? So now we have a mage Divine, ruling over man, just like in, you guessed it, Tevinter. Sorry that you can't see the base for that, but you know, I actually paid attention to the lore, and what just happened there. That, along with granting mages land and titles? How is that not like Tevinter again? Oh, because it's in Orlais? Hmm.

[spinachdiaper]

Magic exists to serve man, not to rule over him.

What's that from? Oh yeah, the Chant, right? So now we have a mage Divine, ruling over man, just like in, you guessed it, Tevinter. Sorry that you can't see the base for that, but you know, I actually paid attention to the lore, and what just happened there. That, along with granting mages land and titles? How is that not like Tevinter again? Oh, because it's in Orlais? Hmm.

Vivienne would go Andrew Ryan on Orlais if threatened

[Kinsz]

Magic exists to serve man, not to rule over him.

What's that from? Oh yeah, the Chant, right? So now we have a mage Divine, ruling over man, just like in, you guessed it, Tevinter. Sorry that you can't see the base for that, but you know, I actually paid attention to the lore, and what just happened there. That, along with granting mages land and titles? How is that not like Tevinter again? Oh, because it's in Orlais? Hmm.

The poster you replied to brought up Tevinter as in Mages running around doing blood sacrifices or whatever they please which you replied to implying that Vivienne ruling as  Divine would enable just that and you are wrong , nice try however with the whole chant of light thing.

[robertthebard]

The poster you replied to brought up Tevinter as in Mages running around doing blood sacrifices or whatever they please which you replied to implying that Vivienne ruling as  Divine would enable just that and you are wrong , nice try however with the whole chant of light thing.

Right, because we don't have a mage as Divine, right? Got it...

[Kinsz]

Right, because we don't have a mage as Divine, right? Got it...

It doesnt mean she will let mages do what they want as they do in Tevinter, she has made it clear time and time again that her goal is to restore the circles in order to bring things back to order whats so hard to understand about that ? im a bit confused here.

[Leoroc]

Every time Vivienne opens her mouth in the game, this is immediately what comes to my mind:

[robertthebard]

It doesnt mean she will let mages do what they want as they do in Tevinter, she has made it clear time and time again that her goal is to restore the circles in order to bring things back to order whats so hard to understand about that ? im a bit confused here.

I'd say more than a bit. My paraphrased quote from the Chant shows that mages aren't supposed to hold titles, magic is not supposed to rule over man. The Chantry split between the Tevinter and Southern versions over this very issue, and yet, here we are with a mage Divine, just like in Tevinter. The victim of a scam is always the last to know, but Viv straight out scammed anyone that makes her Divine.

[Kinsz]

I'd say more than a bit. My paraphrased quote from the Chant shows that mages aren't supposed to hold titles, magic is not supposed to rule over man. The Chantry split between the Tevinter and Southern versions over this very issue, and yet, here we are with a mage Divine, just like in Tevinter. The victim of a scam is always the last to know, but Viv straight out scammed anyone that makes her Divine.

Do we even know for sure what Andraste meant by that ? i asked mother Giselle in game and she couldnt tell me but  thats another topic for another day. Anyways me might have a Divine just like Tevinter does but southern mages will not be granted the privileges the magisters enjoy unless Bioware retcon Vivienne.

 

on a related note it is possible for the Inquisitor to be a mage as well but it doesnt mean the south will automatically start handling things like Tevinter does.