776 réponses à ce sujet

[fizzypop]

Eh I don't think she's all that bad. I don't really agree with her, but she seems like a no shitting around lady. She wants power, she'll take it, and she'll do whatever to get there. I can respect that. At least she's honest about it unlike blackwall.

[BronzTrooper]

I'd say more than a bit. My paraphrased quote from the Chant shows that mages aren't supposed to hold titles, magic is not supposed to rule over man. The Chantry split between the Tevinter and Southern versions over this very issue, and yet, here we are with a mage Divine, just like in Tevinter. The victim of a scam is always the last to know, but Viv straight out scammed anyone that makes her Divine.

 

Tevinter and the White Chantry nations disagree on what that phrase actually means, not whether or not it's true.  The way I see it, it means that those with magic shouldn't let it control their entire lives and, instead, should master it to prevent just that.  Mages aren't the embodiment of magic, lyrium is, so that means that Vivienne being the Divine doesn't really go against that.

 

The White Chantry nations seem convinced that Andraste meant that mages can't hold a position of power (Vivienne kind of covertly breaks this 'rule' by turning her position in the Imperial Court from a jester-type role into a role of power and importance), while Tevinter says that magic should be used to help people, regardless of what they do now.  It's the original premise they had that caused the division, which eventually led to Tevinter returning to the old days.  Vivienne supports the Circle, but she also supports the original premise behind what Tevinter's view on "Magic should serve, not rule" regardless of what they actually do now.  That's why she approves if you say that mages should be allowed to serve in the Chantry, and that's why she accepts the role of Divine.

[London]

I hated her at first but she can be amusing. I loved bringing her to Redcliffe to meet Fiona. Her lines cracked me up.

[electrifried]

She is pretty snobby but her and Solas in a party is hilariously entertaining. I love how they keep sarcastically picking at each other's mage abilities.

[JAZZ_LEG3ND]

Viv is fun. She can stay.

I'm pretty sure anyone who hates her is incredibly naive.

[robertthebard]

Do we even know for sure what Andraste meant by that ? i asked mother Giselle in game and she couldnt tell me but  thats another topic for another day. Anyways me might have a Divine just like Tevinter does but southern mages will not be granted the privileges the magisters enjoy unless Bioware retcon Vivienne.
 
on a related note it is possible for the Inquisitor to be a mage as well but it doesnt mean the south will automatically start handling things like Tevinter does.

True, the Inquisitor can also be Dalish and a mage. However, the Inquisitor isn't taking the seat of the leader of the Chantry, the organization that is the religion based around the chant. If mages aren't allowed to be nobility, how is it vague about the Divine?

[Farangbaa]

I can understand why she's not a romance option, but if she were...

All my playthroughs would be the same in the romance department

[robertthebard]

Tevinter and the White Chantry nations disagree on what that phrase actually means, not whether or not it's true.  The way I see it, it means that those with magic shouldn't let it control their entire lives and, instead, should master it to prevent just that.  Mages aren't the embodiment of magic, lyrium is, so that means that Vivienne being the Divine doesn't really go against that.
 
The White Chantry nations seem convinced that Andraste meant that mages can't hold a position of power (Vivienne kind of covertly breaks this 'rule' by turning her position in the Imperial Court from a jester-type role into a role of power and importance), while Tevinter says that magic should be used to help people, regardless of what they do now.  It's the original premise they had that caused the division, which eventually led to Tevinter returning to the old days.  Vivienne supports the Circle, but she also supports the original premise behind what Tevinter's view on "Magic should serve, not rule" regardless of what they actually do now.  That's why she approves if you say that mages should be allowed to serve in the Chantry, and that's why she accepts the role of Divine.

Because saying that means that you support her, so of course she approves. It's her whole deal, isn't it? To maintain her status in the status quo? She certainly surpasses that, if she becomes Divine.

On a(n) (un)related note, wouldn't magic that involves the use of sacrifice be considered Blood Magic? Just a thought that's been floating around in my head for a few days, that I wanted to get out. Since it directly applies to Viv, figure this is as good a place as any to ask.

[robertthebard]

Viv is fun. She can stay.

I'm pretty sure anyone who hates her is incredibly naive.

Yes, it's incredibly naïve to see through her playing of the Game to her true objectives. Allow me to flip your script: I think anyone that supports her becoming Divine is incredibly naïve.

[Rifneno]

And yet there were mages who were quite happy and a number of the Templars seemed to care about their charges unlike many of Kirkwall's templars. Also there are other circles like Ostwick which didn't rebel at all, at the very lest it shows that conditions were indeed different at different circles.

I don't know what you're on about. Ostwick did rebel. Every Circle rebelled. Every single one. A human mage inquisitor jokes with Josephine about how boring their rebellion was, but they did rebel. Like every other circle.

"You've already lost every Circle" - Varric to Cassandra in DA2, being not at all unclear about the matter.

As for the Wynnes of the world that were happy with the templars and the Circle, it's called Stockholm Syndrome.
 

I personally think that Elthina was trying to make the best of a bad situation. There were a lot of blood magic abuses in Kirkwall so many were willing to convince themselves that Meridith had reasonable cause for her actions. She didn't but it's easy to convince yourself of that in her position rather then risk making things worse.
 
I don't think Elthina deserved to be killed at all. That said, she completely failed her charges by not forcing the issue to be resolved sooner, and peacefully. Both the Circle and the Templars were supposed to be under the authority of the Chantry, so it was her responsibility to bring both Meridith and Orsino in-line. She should have taken action, she decided instead to do nothing.
 
In the end not even The Champion was allowed to choose a neutral option. Believe me, if I had the ability tear down both sides and tell them both they were  being stupid I would have. So if we don't have the option to choose neutrality I don't see why Elthina should be any different.

You know why there were a lot of blood magic abuses in Kirkwall? Because Kirkwall is basically a portal to hell. It's fairly obvious to anyone with an IQ above that of a houseplant (i.e. not most residents of Kirkwall). And yet, the Chantry decided a place that drives people murderously insane was the best place to lock up tons of mages and have them guarded by rapists and murderers.

All the blood mages and abominations in Kirkwall was directly the fault of the Chantry. They kidnap mages and lock them in the house from Poltergeist. My first playthrough, I thought the game was a ham-fisted moral lesson from Gaider and company about TEH DANGERS OF MAGIK but after reading those codex entries, it's pretty clear that the mages were simply victims of Kirkwall's great aura of insanity. And I refuse to believe that in all these years, no one in the Chantry realized Kirkwall's veil was like tissue paper. Especially since the Enigma specifically mentions them having documentation on it.
 

And yet the mages there felt it was worth risking possession by demons in order to gain their freedom despite living in the more "lavish" Ferelden circle. Anders alone tried to escape 7 times even know he knew that he risked death or torture or stupification for doing so. Simply because conditions weren't as bad doesn't mean they were good. Simpy being denied one's freedom is bad enough.

My favorite factoid on the "wonderful" Ferelden circle: when Anders said he's lucky not to have been raped by the templars. He's a man and he's lucky not to have been raped. Just imagine for a moment what it's like for the woman.

On that topic, remember that comic where the "great" knight-commander Gregior beat a pregnant mage because she wouldn't tell him who the father was? Good times. TEH FERELDEN CIRCLE IS LAVISH AND AWESOME!
 

Mage freedom will inevitably result in a Tevinter Imperium

If we let another Austrian lead a country, they'll surely resurrect national socialism! Herp a derp!

[WildOrchid]

I hated her at first but she can be amusing. I loved bringing her to Redcliffe to meet Fiona. Her lines cracked me up.

 

Oh god these lines.... Glorious.

 

 

"Your dementia is showing, my dear."

[daveliam]

Oh god these lines.... Glorious.

 

 

"Your dementia is showing, my dear."

 

And her read on Fiona later:  "We should have just given her a garden to keep her busy" (or something to that effect).  Genius.

 

The library is closed Vivienne, darling. 

[NugHugs]

Mmm yeah. . . she kind of feels like she's been ripped out of Desperate House Wives . . or some other modern TV show with prissy women. Morrigan and Velanna are also prickly characters but are still very likable. How I miss characters such as them.

[Ryriena]

I don't know what you're on about. Ostwick did rebel. Every Circle rebelled. Every single one. A human mage inquisitor jokes with Josephine about how boring their rebellion was, but they did rebel. Like every other circle.

"You've already lost every Circle" - Varric to Cassandra in DA2, being not at all unclear about the matter.

As for the Wynnes of the world that were happy with the templars and the Circle, it's called Stockholm Syndrome.


You know why there were a lot of blood magic abuses in Kirkwall? Because Kirkwall is basically a portal to hell. It's fairly obvious to anyone with an IQ above that of a houseplant (i.e. not most residents of Kirkwall). And yet, the Chantry decided a place that drives people murderously insane was the best place to lock up tons of mages and have them guarded by rapists and murderers.

All the blood mages and abominations in Kirkwall was directly the fault of the Chantry. They kidnap mages and lock them in the house from Poltergeist. My first playthrough, I thought the game was a ham-fisted moral lesson from Gaider and company about TEH DANGERS OF MAGIK but after reading those codex entries, it's pretty clear that the mages were simply victims of Kirkwall's great aura of insanity. And I refuse to believe that in all these years, no one in the Chantry realized Kirkwall's veil was like tissue paper. Especially since the Enigma specifically mentions them having documentation on it.


My favorite factoid on the "wonderful" Ferelden circle: when Anders said he's lucky not to have been raped by the templars. He's a man and he's lucky not to have been raped. Just imagine for a moment what it's like for the woman.

On that topic, remember that comic where the "great" knight-commander Gregior beat a pregnant mage because she wouldn't tell him who the father was? Good times. TEH FERELDEN CIRCLE IS LAVISH AND AWESOME!


If we let another Austrian lead a country, they'll surely resurrect national socialism! Herp a derp!

Apparently, Anders isn't a good source since he blew up somthing that seemed Neutral. Which, I don't think the Grand Cleric was neutral.

[Taura-Tierno]

Magic exists to serve man, not to rule over him.

What's that from? Oh yeah, the Chant, right? So now we have a mage Divine, ruling over man, just like in, you guessed it, Tevinter. Sorry that you can't see the base for that, but you know, I actually paid attention to the lore, and what just happened there. That, along with granting mages land and titles? How is that not like Tevinter again? Oh, because it's in Orlais? Hmm.

Vivianne would be Divine because she's Vivianne, who happens to be a mage. Mages would own land because they are people who happen to own land, not because they're mages. In Tevinter, mages are the ruling class by law and custom both. There's a very distinct difference there. As long as Vivianne doesn't start granting special privileges to mages, she's not going to turn anything into modern Tevinter. 

Hell, even having Leliana as Divine and the mages completely free doesn't have to come to that. If the mages band together to form a new organisation whose purpose is not related to ruling over people, the majority of the mages will stick to being scholars or helping people or whatever purpose the mages find for themselves. 

[Sylentmana]

I think the only true reason Vivienne joined was because she saw the Inquisition as a spring board for her to grab at becoming Divine.  Personally, I liked Leliana as divine best since then the mages essentially form Hogwarts.

[AppalachianApex]

I love Vivienne for her haughtiness, ambition, etc. But I swear to all the Gods, Viv, SAY SOMETHING MEAN TO COLE ONE MORE GADDAMN TIME AND YOU ARE OUTTA HERE!!

[daveliam]

Mmm yeah. . . she kind of feels like she's been ripped out of Desperate House Wives . . or some other modern TV show with prissy women. Morrigan and Velanna are also prickly characters but are still very likable. How I miss characters such as them.

 

Wait, what?  Velanna was "very likable"?  In what universe is she "very likable"?

[Rifneno]

Apparently, Anders isn't a good source since he blew up somthing that seemed Neutral. Which, I don't think the Grand Cleric was neutral.

 

You're right, she isn't.  Her "staying out of it" is siding with the templars by de facto.  I'm quite sure she knows it too.  But anyway, it always makes me laugh when people try to dismiss what Anders says because he hates the system so much.  These things are why he hates the system.  It's called cause and effect, people.  Saying Anders was lying about the Circle is like saying Fenris is lying about how slaves are treated in Tevinter.  Being treated like crap is WHY they're so bitter towards these things.  Ugh.

[Shockwave Pulsar]

She really grew on me after I started taking her along. Her banter with Dorian is priceless ("At least we're not Antivan!"). She might have some controversial opinions but she is honest about what she wants and what she's about, that's something I can respect. I could go on, but I think she's just a very well written character. She's far from abominations like Anders or Sera.

[Ryriena]

You're right, she isn't. Her "staying out of it" is siding with the templars by de facto. I'm quite sure she knows it too. But anyway, it always makes me laugh when people try to dismiss what Anders says because he hates the system so much. These things are why he hates the system. It's called cause and effect, people. Saying Anders was lying about the Circle is like saying Fenris is lying about how slaves are treated in Tevinter. Being treated like crap is WHY they're so bitter towards these things. Ugh.

So true, I am more or less incline to side with the Mages since treating people like crap is the cause of this whole war.

[mikeymoonshine]

 

 But anyway, it always makes me laugh when people try to dismiss what Anders says because he hates the system so much.  These things are why he hates the system.  It's called cause and effect, people.  Saying Anders was lying about the Circle is like saying Fenris is lying about how slaves are treated in Tevinter.  Being treated like crap is WHY they're so bitter towards these things.  Ugh.

 

 

It's still a bias "A black man killed my mother in a robbery so now I hate black people" is not valid reasoning even if it is based on a real experience. Anders was warped by hatred and by the spirit possessing him, he is only going to ever see the worst of the circle and the chantry. It's funny how you leave out the fact that Fenris blamed all mages for what one Magister did to him, he believed that mages were ultimately weak and should be locked up to that. He even supported Meredith's incredibly harsh restrictions because of what happened to him. Anders doesn't know what it was like for every mage, Fenris doesn't know what it was like for every slave, Anders doesn't know how every Templar thinks, Fenris doesn't know the personal strength of every mage. So they might not have been lying but they constantly made claims that they did not actually know to be true. 

[robertthebard]

It's still a bias "A black man killed my mother in a robbery so now I hate black people" is not valid reasoning even if it is based on a real experience. Anders was warped by hatred and by the spirit possessing him, he is only going to ever see the worst of the circle and the chantry. It's funny how you leave out the fact that Fenris blamed all mages for what one Magister did to him, he believed that mages were ultimately weak and should be locked up to that. He even supported Meredith's incredibly harsh restrictions because of what happened to him. Anders doesn't know what it was like for every mage, Fenris doesn't know what it was like for every slave, Anders doesn't know how every Templar thinks, Fenris doesn't know the personal strength of every mage. So they might not have been lying but they constantly made claims that they did not actually know to be true.

Except that, in Anders' case, we have seen it demonstrated that it is true. To what degree it goes on, I have no idea, but it does happen. In the case of your analogy, which is really uncomfortable for me, but if said people had been oppressing your family for centuries, and have, more than likely lobotomized(made tranquil) or killed lots of your family, are you still going to feel the same way? As an aside here, but Anders wasn't warped by Justice in Awakening. He had some of these views since then, in fact, it's where we learn how many times he's escaped from the circle.

[Vit246]

Apparently, Anders isn't a good source since he blew up somthing that seemed Neutral. Which, I don't think the Grand Cleric was neutral.

Of course neither Chantry or the Grand Cleric are neutral. The Chantry is the one that slowly molded the young Circles over the centuries into the modern Circle system where the Chantry and Templars had control. The Chantry made the laws and their Templar militant arm enforced them. And Grand Clerics like Elthina held superior authority over the mages and Templars in Kirkwall. But Elthina was weak-willed and did nothing to affect the status quo.