776 réponses à ce sujet

[Cantina]

Vivienne is a cold-hearted ****** who cares only for what she can gain out of any situation. I believe she joined the Inquisition just to brag about it to her nobles.

 

 

*Using an ice spell to put a noble in place.

 

Excuse me? What? I get that the gentleman was being rude in your house but this is over the line. You don’t see some noble unsheathing his sword, pointing it a man’s throat and telling him to leave. Vivienne could have simply told the noble to leave. Using magic for this simple spat just shows how much of a hypocrite you are, Vivienne.
 

*Telling me how to run MY Inquisition.

 

I have advisers. I don’t need you chiming in and telling me how to run the place. Also, please stop going behind my back and trying to change the decorations within Skyhold. Vivienne is a guest within my house, maybe I should use an ice spell, perhaps that would put Vivienne in her place.

 

*Complaining to Cullen.

 

Cullen is no longer a Templar, Vivienne. She does need to run to him every time a stupid idea pops in your head, nor should you be giving him orders on what the Templars should be doing. Cullen takes his orders, from my Inquisitor, not you Vivienne, my Inquisitor.

 

*Alliance with the Mages

 

I am sorry, Vivienne your pissed I gave an Alliance with the Mages. Well too freaking bad. Most of my companions say there piece and get over it. Vivienne on the other hand complains non-stop about it. I have other ideas on how to handle Mages, either Vivienne could ask about those or drop the subject entirely.

 

*Hypocrite

 

Vivienne knows full well the dangers of magic. Yet she was envious I walked physically through the Fade. Uh Huh. Right. ‘Magic is dangerous just as fire is dangerous. Anyone who forgets that, gets burned.” Well, swords are dangerous too. Yet you don’t see that person walking around and stabbing everyone they encounter.

 

*Vivienne’s own personal bubble.

 

Vivienne has this attitude that everything she says is right and everything you say is wrong.  If you don’t play along with Vivienne’s game, she throws a fit by……moving furniture. My character lives in the real world of Thedas, not some gilded cage swallowing everything the Chantry feds me.

 

Vivienne’s views are so her-sided and so clouded that it makes my skin crawl. I can put aside her differences on how the Mages should be handled. However I cannot put aside the fact she treats other people including my Inquisitor like crap if you don’t kiss Vivienne’s ass.

 

Look how she treats poor Cole. Cole went out of his way to help the people in Haven, yet if you point this fact out, Vivienne disapproves and disapproves even more if you allow Cole to stay. Vivienne you DO realize there are spirts in the Fade who sometimes seek to help those living in the real world, yes? The Fade is not full of demons nor is every mage in Thedas using demons.

 

But I digress. Vivienne is a well written character, don’t get me wrong, so well written that Vivienne is by far the most loathed companion I have come across in the DA games thus far.

 

Vivienne cares only for herself. As for those around Vivienne, she will care only if it benefits her and/or you kiss her ass.  I bet if you shipped her off to Tevinter, she would fit in perfectly and become an Archon within a few years.

 

 

[mikeymoonshine]

Except that, in Anders' case, we have seen it demonstrated that it is true. To what degree it goes on, I have no idea, but it does happen. In the case of your analogy, which is really uncomfortable for me, but if said people had been oppressing your family for centuries, and have, more than likely lobotomized(made tranquil) or killed lots of your family, are you still going to feel the same way? As an aside here, but Anders wasn't warped by Justice in Awakening. He had some of these views since then, in fact, it's where we learn how many times he's escaped from the circle.

 

When did I say it wasn't true? Are you saying it wasn't true in Fenris's case then? Was he just lying about it all? 

 

The fact that it was true changes nothing, abuses happened in the circle, nobody denies this but that doesn't mean someone like Anders is going to give you a fair and unbiased view that takes the entire circle into account. My point is that Anders is biased and the fact that he has a good reason to be doesn't change that. 

 

Awakening was also where we learned that Anders thought separation from the Chantry was a terrible idea.

[robertthebard]

When did I say it wasn't true? Are you saying it wasn't true in Fenris's case then? Was he just lying about it all? 
 
The fact that it was true changes nothing, abuses happened in the circle, nobody denies this but that doesn't mean someone like Anders is going to give you a fair and unbiased view that takes the entire circle into account. My point is that Anders is biased and the fact that he has a good reason to be doesn't change that. 
 
Awakening was also where we learned that Anders thought separation from the Chantry was a terrible idea.

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around what you're saying, but what you seem to be saying is "So what if it's true, that's how it needs to be". I'm not a fan of Anders, and I felt like Fenris was a bit clingy, so I never pursued much with him either. However, who else are we going to talk to about their individual issues? Should we take only the Templar's view of what was going on, in which case "There's nothing to see here, move along"? I'm not going to base my opinion on one side of an argument, no matter what it is, unless I already have a firm opinion. However, if I do have one, I got it somewhere.

The mage rebellion may have been kicked off in Kirkwall, but every single circle voted for independence, even the ones that people think were open about how they dealt with the mages. The fact that abuses exist within the circles means that there's a problem that needs to be addressed. I'm not sure that a revolt was the right idea, but just letting it continue doesn't seem like much of an option either. Nor does saying "But he has had actual experience with it, and so he's biased and should be ignored".

[TheLittleBird]

*Hypocrite

 

Vivienne knows full well the dangers of magic. Yet she was envious I walked physically through the Fade. Uh Huh. Right. ‘Magic is dangerous just as fire is dangerous. Anyone who forgets that, gets burned.” Well, swords are dangerous too. Yet you don’t see that person walking around and stabbing everyone they encounter.

 

I don't understand why everyone keeps bringing that up as being evidence of Vivienne's hypocrisy. Sure, I too think magic is dangerous and all, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little jealous of someone who actually physically entered the Fade. 

 

It's as if those are mutually exclusive. 

[Ryriena]

Of course neither Chantry or the Grand Cleric are neutral. The Chantry is the one that slowly molded the young Circles over the centuries into the modern Circle system where the Chantry and Templars had control. The Chantry made the laws and their Templar militant arm enforced them. And Grand Clerics like Elthina held superior authority over the mages and Templars in Kirkwall. But Elthina was weak-willed and did nothing to affect the status quo.

But Anders is bias against a system that opressed his people so he's not a good source of judgement. You know since he picked a building that added to said oppression by spreading fear and hate of Mages for what a few did a thousand years ago. I would have blown it up right, when my friend was made tranquil which were against his wishes and the law for a Harrowed mage at the time. Also she basicly states that all Mages should like being oppressed since they had food clothing ect. It's like that mage in Redcliff by the statue that states he was happy since at least he had food and a place to sleep. No what you had was Stockholm syndrome. Did you run across that mage girl in origins that hated being a mage because she wanted to be lay sister. Or clicked on a one of the Mages that spouted chantry lines to justify to why he should become a tranquil basicly magical lobotomy.

[mikeymoonshine]

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around what you're saying, but what you seem to be saying is "So what if it's true, that's how it needs to be". I'm not a fan of Anders, and I felt like Fenris was a bit clingy, so I never pursued much with him either. However, who else are we going to talk to about their individual issues? Should we take only the Templar's view of what was going on, in which case "There's nothing to see here, move along"? I'm not going to base my opinion on one side of an argument, no matter what it is, unless I already have a firm opinion. However, if I do have one, I got it somewhere.

The mage rebellion may have been kicked off in Kirkwall, but every single circle voted for independence, even the ones that people think were open about how they dealt with the mages. The fact that abuses exist within the circles means that there's a problem that needs to be addressed. I'm not sure that a revolt was the right idea, but just letting it continue doesn't seem like much of an option either. Nor does saying "But he has had actual experience with it, and so he's biased and should be ignored".

 

I'm saying the fact that Anders isn't wrong about the circle doesn't mean that he is right either. You might not base your opinion on a one sided argument but others do. Vivienne's and Anders both have biases that warp their opinions to some extent but it seems like people can easily spot the bias of the one they don't agree with but conveniently ignore the bias of the one they do. 

 

The circle only voted for independence because of a lot of very specific events and circumstances. It seems like the mages were divided in opinion and only voted to leave when it came to a situation where they had no other choice. I'm not saying that means they didn't want independence, many did but I don't think the majority actually wanted to do it that way if they wanted to at all. I'm not saying Anders should be ignored I am saying you have to take other views into account, like the views of Vivienne and Wynne. 

[robertthebard]

I'm saying the fact that Anders isn't wrong about the circle doesn't mean that he is right either. You might not base your opinion on a one sided argument but others do. Vivienne's and Anders both have biases that warp their opinions to some extent but it seems like people can easily spot the bias of the one they don't agree with but conveniently ignore the bias of the one they do. 
 
The circle only voted for independence because of a lot of very specific events and circumstances. It seems like the mages were divided in opinion and only voted to leave when it came to a situation where they had no other choice. I'm not saying that means they didn't want independence, many did but I don't think the majority actually wanted to do it that way if they wanted to at all. I'm not saying Anders should be ignored I am saying you have to take other views into account, like the views of Vivienne and Wynne.

The problem I have with taking Viv's view is that she's interested in preserving the status quo, where she's living like a queen in a mansion, not in the circle. "How dare you use that language, in my house, to my guest"(rough paraphrase). It's even her party. So of course she wants to preserve the status quo. I wonder, however, if she weren't living the life of privilege that she is, how she'd really feel. Wynne liked it in the circle, but she had more freedom than most too, although nothing like what Viv has. So wouldn't her view be warped, since she's really not in the Circle?

[Malkavian]

After her introduction scene i actually liked her. Sure she was a ******, but i still liked her, that is, until i took her with me and she started talking down on people. I immediately switched party and actually forgot about her. 

 

On my second playthrough i decided to actually talk to her and see what she's all about.

 

As someone who presents herself as all-knowing, she clearly lacks any vision. After all that has happened with the chantry and between mages and templars, she still wishes for things to go back as they were. It's pretty much like Sera when she says " i just want everything to go back to normal so i can play". And to think that she could actually become divine is just another disaster.

 

She is also ignorant. As seen when she tells you how knight-enchanters are elite chantry guards etc. clearly knowing nothing about the origins of it, even though shes one.

It's also amusing to see her attitude towards the inquisitor after her approval is low enough. She still acts like something depends on her or that the inquisitor actually needs her or that she is in any way relevant.

It was quite pitiful.

 

Still, she is a well written character. Obviously one who managed to awake strong emotions of hate and disdain in so many people.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

After all that has happened with the chantry and between mages and templars, she still wishes for things to go back as they were.

 

Actually, she gives the mages greater freedom and reins in the Templars more tightly than before as Divine.

[Uhh.. Jonah]

I bring her along just so I can use her as my person-who-must-sacrifice-their-health-so-that-we-can-jump-off-this-cliff.

You think you can just shade me and get away with it. HA! Let's take a trip to the Hinterlands, shall we?

[Star Reborn]

She's a white man's bloody concubine. No respect.

[lyin321]

If she doesn't like you :

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 In that scene can you get physical or maybe simply kick her out of the inquisition? If you so choose ofcourse. If not I am glad I never got it (as I would have hated it) and isn't it a very good reason why Vivienne often is disliked?

 

 Tho I wonder why she decided/dared to taunt the inquisitor....Maybe she feels that she can overpower him/her? Or maybe that she is important enought to escape the consequences (if there are any)?

[JJDXB]

She's a white man's bloody concubine. No respect.

 

Why is this relevant?  Skin colour isn't an issue in Thedas; species is.

 

Furthermore.  It's really easy to get Vivienne to like you.  All you have to do is pick really sensible things in literally the first two cut scene conversations with her after joining like:

-"The mage-templar war benefits no-one". It doesn't, no matter what side you support -  the mages are most definitely on the losing side (so much for freedom, eh?), hence Redcliffe and the Templars are now feared, not to mention the chaos and civilian deaths

-"The mages should have a place in the chantry" i.e. they should not be excluded.  Which is *gasp* a pro-mage position to take.

 

That's 2x Greatly Approves already.  Freeing the mages nets a disprove, conscripting them gives you greatly approve.  She isn't as opinionated about your judgements or decisions as you think.  She'll only slightly disapprove if you ally with the Wardens and only if she's with you.  She rarely nets anything above "slightly" anything with judgements - in fact, she actually (slightly) approves if you sentence Florianne to work on a farm to understand the commoner life.  Not to mention, despite telling you in Haven that saving the townsfolk shouldn't be a priority, she does slightly approve if you do.

 

It's stupidly easy.  If anything, Solas is the stubborn hypocrite.  Vivienne understands that life is difficult for most people in Thedas.  If working towards keeping the population safe fits her ideology, even better.  No mistake, she's always thinking about how to improve her position, but she's not as removed from the masses as you think.

[MrGDL87]

<snip> 

 

That's 2x Greatly Approves already.  Freeing the mages nets a disprove, conscripting them gives you greatly approve.  She isn't as opinionated about your judgements or decisions as you think.  She'll only slightly disapprove if you ally with the Wardens and only if she's with you.  She rarely nets anything above "slightly" anything with judgements - in fact, she actually (slightly) approves if you sentence Florianne to work on a farm to understand the commoner life.  Not to mention, despite telling you in Haven that saving the townsfolk shouldn't be a priority, she does slightly approve if you do.

 

<snip>

 

I love Vivienne and I still learn new information about her character that makes me adore her more.  
 

[Daerog]

Didn't read the previous 18 pages.

 

Just wanted to point out that I agree with the OP that she is a good character, but unlike the OP, I really like her.

 

I also really like Sera, which I find kind of funny, especially if I have both in my party.

 

I like that even though she puts up a cold front and acts as the Lady of Iron, she does seem to greatly care for others. Her losing her position won't help others, so she won't risk it, but she can do better by getting more power, and as far as I've seen, she hasn't used other people as tools. She could have just sent Loyalist mages to aid the Inquisition, but no, she jumps into the front lines as well. She hates that Fiona has used other mages as tools and threw them into a war many did not want. She greatly loved a man and I found it kind of adorable when she was being all "mother-like" when trying to clean up the Inquisitor and asking how the Inquisitor is doing.

 

She is the Divine in my canon.

[mikeymoonshine]

The problem I have with taking Viv's view is that she's interested in preserving the status quo, where she's living like a queen in a mansion, not in the circle. "How dare you use that language, in my house, to my guest"(rough paraphrase). It's even her party. So of course she wants to preserve the status quo. I wonder, however, if she weren't living the life of privilege that she is, how she'd really feel. Wynne liked it in the circle, but she had more freedom than most too, although nothing like what Viv has. So wouldn't her view be warped, since she's really not in the Circle?

 

I don't think it's fair to say she wants to preserve the status quo. She supports reform and enacts it if you make her the Divine. We don't know how mages are treated in the new circles other than that are given a lot more power than in the old system. Vivienne lives in a mansion because many circles (including Ferelden) allowed mages to leave. I wouldn't say Wynne "liked" the circle I would say she believed in the circle. She only had more freedom due to being very well respected and then she had even more after the blight because she had helped the Warden, she suffered in the circle though and even lost her child to it. Everyone's view is warped in one way or another.

[BronzTrooper]

Because saying that means that you support her, so of course she approves. It's her whole deal, isn't it? To maintain her status in the status quo? She certainly surpasses that, if she becomes Divine.

On a(n) (un)related note, wouldn't magic that involves the use of sacrifice be considered Blood Magic? Just a thought that's been floating around in my head for a few days, that I wanted to get out. Since it directly applies to Viv, figure this is as good a place as any to ask.

 

The thing is, Vivienne thinks like a noble, so advancing/preserving her position in the political world is her main priority.  Unlike many, many mages, she's been exposed to the world of political intrigue and has practically absorbed into it to the point that she's a master of The Game.  This is why she approves if you plan to make her Divine.

 

Since the use of a sacrifice usually implies that someone's life force is used to power the spell, that would mean that it is blood magic.  In a way, the magic used to create phylacteries can be considered blood magic too, but that's a debate for another time and place.  Plus, how does it apply directly to Vivienne?  To me, it seems like she feels that anyone who resorts to blood magic and demon summoning is weak.  In a way, I sort of agree with her, but blood mages like Merrill who don't succumb to insanity/possession while using blood magic possess a strength that many other mages don't have.  Not to mention that Merrill only used blood magic because she didn't have enough lyrium to cleanse the pieces of the Eluvian.  Then again, Vivienne would likely still think poorly of her for using blood magic at all, so meh.  (to be clear: I'm not trying to start an argument about Merrill and the Eluvian, I was simply using her as an example)

[robertthebard]

The thing is, Vivienne thinks like a noble, so advancing/preserving her position in the political world is her main priority.  Unlike many, many mages, she's been exposed to the world of political intrigue and has practically absorbed into it to the point that she's a master of The Game.  This is why she approves if you plan to make her Divine.
 
Since the use of a sacrifice usually implies that someone's life force is used to power the spell, that would mean that it is blood magic.  In a way, the magic used to create phylacteries can be considered blood magic too, but that's a debate for another time and place.  Plus, how does it apply directly to Vivienne?  To me, it seems like she feels that anyone who resorts to blood magic and demon summoning is weak.  In a way, I sort of agree with her, but blood mages like Merrill who don't succumb to insanity/possession while using blood magic possess a strength that many other mages don't have.  Not to mention that Merrill only used blood magic because she didn't have enough lyrium to cleanse the pieces of the Eluvian.  Then again, Vivienne would likely still think poorly of her for using blood magic at all, so meh.  (to be clear: I'm not trying to start an argument about Merrill and the Eluvian, I was simply using her as an example)

It's the whole heart of the wyvern thing, and really, just an idle thought that had to escape before it drove me insane bouncing around in my head, but not really worth a whole topic.

[BronzTrooper]

It's the whole heart of the wyvern thing, and really, just an idle thought that had to escape before it drove me insane bouncing around in my head, but not really worth a whole topic.

 

Oh, that's what you meant?  Vivienne was just making a potion or something like that.  It wasn't a whole magical ritual.  Pretty much anyone can make a potion, it's not a magical skill.

[JAZZ_LEG3ND]

Yes, it's incredibly naïve to see through her playing of the Game to her true objectives. Allow me to flip your script: I think anyone that supports her becoming Divine is incredibly naïve.

How'd we go from "I don't hate her" to "I support her being Divine"?

Obviously she has ambition, but so does everyone... except maybe Cassandra--all about what needs to be done there--Viv is a powerful ally, and I never found her personality bugged me, she actually gets really fond of the Inquisitor if you say nice things.

[Shahadem]

I don't understand why everyone keeps bringing that up as being evidence of Vivienne's hypocrisy. Sure, I too think magic is dangerous and all, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little jealous of someone who actually physically entered the Fade. 

 

It's as if those are mutually exclusive. 

It's simple. If Vivienne believes magic is so dangerous, why would she be envious of someone doing something exceptionally dangerous and likely to get themselves turned into an abomination according to Viv? She's envious because she secretly desires having greater and greater power and wishes that she was there as she would have used that oppurtunity to increase her own power.

 

See she doesn't really think magic is dangerous, she simply thinks that everyone else should be put under her control, whether by legal means or through force, preferably force controlled by her.

[Shahadem]

Oh, that's what you meant?  Vivienne was just making a potion or something like that.  It wasn't a whole magical ritual.  Pretty much anyone can make a potion, it's not a magical skill.

 

She was making a poison to kill her lover. Yep. She claims magic is really dangerous, but apparently instant kill poisons are even more dangerous, especially when they are administered by your lover and you drink it thinking it's really medicine.

[Ashagar]

The trouble with the idea of it being a poison is that the duke will die regardless the only difference between using the snowy wyvern heart and not is that with the real heart he wakes up, so unless she was killing him to end his suffering the poison angle falls flat.

[KaiserShep]

I had assumed that she required the specific heart to make the formula that could make him lucid enough in his final moments to say goodbye. He was going to die anyway so what's the point? If she simply wanted to kill him, there's any number of fast acting poisons someone could whip up without having to go through the trouble of snagging a snowy wyvern. I'm pretty certain the notes you can read in Vivienne's room hints at this. Considering how she clearly seemed to feel, if she was going to have someone go through all that effort, she probably would have preferred to make something that would cure him outright, but it was beyond her reach.

[Thiefy]

She was making a poison to kill her lover. Yep. She claims magic is really dangerous, but apparently instant kill poisons are even more dangerous, especially when they are administered by your lover and you drink it thinking it's really medicine.

Start 6:08

 

Basically, nah. It was a cure. Supposed to be, but her lover was too far gone.