776 réponses à ce sujet

[TheLittleBird]

How many mages did she have loyal? Because the 4 in Redcliffe would mean that there weren't a lot of mages voting, eh?

 

Did you read Asunder?

[robertthebard]

So you think those 4 mages in Redcliff were what the loyalists i was referring to? lets use our heads a little shall we? clearly those guys were rebel mages ( despite not wanting to rebels but thats besides the point ) given that they were with the rest , Vivienne's loyalist mages didnt go to redcliff, i cant tell you exactly where they stay but if you talk to Vivienne when recruiting her ( or during your first convo with her ) she tells you about them.

So how many did she have? Because you're saying that the 4, and I'm not sure it's even 4, might be 3 mages in Redcliffe that express they'd prefer to stay, and what Viv has is a majority of the mages. That was my question. How many she has in her pocket, figuratively, pretty sure she doesn't do pockets, to give you the impression she has the majority, because all the info we're given in game would indicate that the majority voted for independence.

[robertthebard]

Did you read Asunder?

No, I didn't. I've read here about some of the events, such as Lambert breaking up the initial conclave, and the rebellion exploding from there. However, I don't have a count of who voted what or when. Making a statement that the mages in Redcliffe we talk to that would rather stay, and Viv's pocket mages would indicate that there is a number comparison, and I was attempting to ascertain what it was. The game implies one thing, I'm being told something else here, so I was looking for clarification.

[Kinsz]

So how many did she have? Because you're saying that the 4, and I'm not sure it's even 4, might be 3 mages in Redcliffe that express they'd prefer to stay, and what Viv has is a majority of the mages. That was my question. How many she has in her pocket, figuratively, pretty sure she doesn't do pockets, to give you the impression she has the majority, because all the info we're given in game would indicate that the majority voted for independence.

Lol are you even reading my posts ? if not let us not waste each other's time my friend anyways here is a video of the first conversation with Vivienne watch from minute 2:13 then youll have the answer to your question.

[TheLittleBird]

No, I didn't. I've read here about some of the events, such as Lambert breaking up the initial conclave, and the rebellion exploding from there. However, I don't have a count of who voted what or when. Making a statement that the mages in Redcliffe we talk to that would rather stay, and Viv's pocket mages would indicate that there is a number comparison, and I was attempting to ascertain what it was. The game implies one thing, I'm being told something else here, so I was looking for clarification.

 

After Lambert broke up the initial Conclave at the White Spire every Circle rose up in rebellion, and was met with swift action from Templar hands. Hundreds, even thousands made their way to Andoral's Reach where, a month after what happened at the White Spire, Fiona called for a new Conclave. Because not every First Enchanter was present (some not being able to make it, some dead), the mages opted to have their votes carried out by the representatives of their respective Fraternities. The Loyalists voted to submit to the Templars and Chantry and go back to the Circles, and each of the smaller fraternities followed. Yet the Libertarians and Aequitarians, together forming the majority, voted to fight. So I guess you could say little over half of the mages voted to fight. Though keep in mind that it's the representatives of each Fraternity we're talking about here. But it should give an estimation of what we're talking about.

[robertthebard]

Lol are you even reading my posts ? if not let us not waste each other's time my friend anyways here is a video of the first conversation with Vivienne watch from minute 2:13 then youll have the answer to your question.

Thanks for the vid, but it doesn't answer my question, there is no number given to make me think that 3 or 4 tipped it to the majority. The other post, however, comes closer to answering my question. One side or the other has just over half, and it would seem that the side with the advantage were the rebels. You see, I wasn't trying to waste your time, I was trying to figure out where you were getting your numbers.

[robertthebard]

After Lambert broke up the initial Conclave at the White Spire every Circle rose up in rebellion, and was met with swift action from Templar hands. Hundreds, even thousands made their way to Andoral's Reach where, a month after what happened at the White Spire, Fiona called for a new Conclave. Because not every First Enchanter was present (some not being able to make it, some dead), the mages opted to have their votes carried out by the representatives of their respective Fraternities. The Loyalists voted to submit to the Templars and Chantry and go back to the Circles, and each of the smaller fraternities followed. Yet the Libertarians and Aequitarians, together forming the majority, voted to fight. So I guess you could say little over half of the mages voted to fight. Though keep in mind that it's the representatives of each Fraternity we're talking about here. But it should give an estimation of what we're talking about.

Yep, that's what I was looking for, a ballpark of mages on either side. So it's safe to say that 3 or 4 mages with the rebels wouldn't tip the scales.

[Kinsz]

Thanks for the vid, but it doesn't answer my question, there is no number given to make me think that 3 or 4 tipped it to the majority. The other post, however, comes closer to answering my question. One side or the other has just over half, and it would seem that the side with the advantage were the rebels. You see, I wasn't trying to waste your time, I was trying to figure out where you were getting your numbers.

This is the problem, you're assuming that i claimed those 4 alone would tip the balance , i didnt, i just used them as an example , you honestly believe they were the only ones who wished they could return to the circles in order to be safe again? the rest of the mages in redcliff might not have gotten screen time but i bet by that point most of them would have shared the same sentiment as their brethren.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Why's that, my darling?

[Norwood06]

She's a Fenris with a peculiar but brilliant fashion sense, not sure why people are so up in arms about her; from the beginning she was said to be behind the circle and to strongly disagree with the rebellion, she was said to be Machiavellian and is known as "the Lady of Iron".

 

 

aagree completely.  She's my new Fenris:  she embodies an ideology / political viewpoint that is in direct opposition to my inquisitor.  And she defends her position fiercely.  

 

I didn't take Fenris with me much at all, and I won't take Viv.  But still, great characters.  Fun to argue with.

[Norwood06]

I don't think Fenris is the same. It's more personal and tortured. He thinks he's tainted, and magic in general is filthy. He relishes in hatred.

 

Vivienne doesn't view it that way. She's just quoting the Chant of Light. That magic must serve, not rule. And that mages, of all people, know how dangerous it is. That you don't play with fire. She takes it seriously. Like any First Enchanter worth their title would.

 

Agreed that Fenris and Viv are not similar as characters.  They are only similar in that my Hawke & my Inquisitor utterly disagreed with everything they said.  And both characters irritated me, at least on the first few playthroughs.  But they are great characters, and fun to argue with. 

[Catastrophy]

She's a real ******. Well-written, too. I liked to group up with Sera and Vivy just for the banter.

[Catastrophy]

That was my preferred team (with Cass) before release and it's remained one of my favorites.

I have to admit - at her first appearance I instantly thought: "Well, here comes my new companion. Sorry, Solas."

 

Of course it had nothing to do with her dress. I'm also tempted to give her the "Victim of Fashion" amulet - I just can't bring it over my heart.

[Rifneno]

In that scene can you get physical or maybe simply kick her out of the inquisition? If you so choose ofcourse. If not I am glad I never got it (as I would have hated it) and isn't it a very good reason why Vivienne often is disliked?
 
 Tho I wonder why she decided/dared to taunt the inquisitor....Maybe she feels that she can overpower him/her? Or maybe that she is important enought to escape the consequences (if there are any)?

No. You can't do anything in retaliation to her. You can't kick her out of the group, you can't hit her, you can't even call her a (female mabari). "I wanted to see what you'd do" she says. And yet, you can't do a damned thing. Thanks, BW.

And yet, Sera has a "kick her out" prompt every time you talk to her. Bioware logic. It is not a thing you can comprehend. </Reaper voice>
 

All things considered, it's not hard to see why she feels that way though. The Inquisitor tries to use logic about the role of Wardens in the Blight, but had the misfortune of speaking to an impostor about it. Beyond that, no one really knows exactly why Wardens are useful, and merely assume that they are. Their secretive nature might be seen as a necessity to them, but it clearly has huge drawbacks. I doubt Vivienne would be singing that tune if she knew that the Old Gods could only be slain by a Warden using their tainted blood. I bet Solas knows, that sumbich.

Considering every Blight has ended at the hands of the Grey Wardens, you don't need to be a genius to figure out that they are indeed necessary to end it. You may not know why or how, but it's pretty damn easy to see that they are. Almost every Blight has had the armies of all mankind united against the darkspawn, but every single archdemon, every single one, has been slain at the hands of a small order of people who have dedicated their lives to destroying the darkspawn. There's arguably even records remaining talking about how the first Archdemon, Dumat, was slain repeatedly and kept coming back until he was slain by a Warden.

If her defense is "she's too stupid to put 2 and 2 together", I don't think much more of her.
 

Kind of agree with her views on the Wardens. Mostly because they seriously need a revamping  of the organization and on the treaties that's not a document from a millennium ago that says "We can act and take what we want with almost near impunity because Blights."

Incredibly bad idea is incredibly bad. And pay attention to the lore, they tell you flat out that Grey Wardens only really get impunity during a Blight. In regular times, they have to watch themselves like anyone else. Hell, the entirety of the Warden order was banished from Ferelden in 7:5 Storm, remained banished through the entire Blessed Age, and the banishment was only lifted in 9:10 Dragon.
 

I guess it's kind of hard to see from our perspective because when we've played the game we've mostly seen really shitty circles but from a person that grew up in a fairly liberal circle like it sounds like she's from preserving the status quo for the Circle of Magi isn't really a bad idea. From the good circles people got to see their families pretty often and were free to pursue whatever relationships they wanted to some degree and felt safe from attacks(not everyone in the circle is actually good at magic. some just have the ability to use it). From Vivienne's circle it sounded like exceptional mages could even be invited to attend court balls. So even being against the circles I can see a POV that appreciates what they could be.

It's funny because the pro-Templar group always rants about Ferelden's Circle being one of the good ones. Now "we've only seen the bad ones." Yeah, no. And where are you getting this crap that they let mages out free? No. Ferelden's Circle doesn't even let them outside - and they're surrounded by a goddamn lake. Because one guy made a swim for it. They aren't even allowed outside of the tower.
They get to see their families pretty often? The entire bit with Connor was because Isolde couldn't stand the thought of never seeing her child again if he was taken to the Circle. And he's the son of one of the most powerful men in the country. No, they do not get to see their families often.
Pursue relationships? Mages require Chantry permission to marry. And they're highly discouraged from marrying other mages. Anders plainly states that the templars will use it against mages if they know they're involved with one another. It's another weapon used to control them. And yeah yeah, I know, "not every templar is bad!" It doesn't take all of them. It just takes one. Oh yeah, before we get off relationships, the Chantry steals any children they have. They're not allowed children. It's even implied that the templars sometimes just kill the child. What a wonderful place to be!

Before anyone says it, Wilhelm was a major war hero and was granted lots of special privileges as a result. He is NOT the norm, and 99.99% of mages don't get even one of the freedoms that were granted to him.
 

Vivienne's ambition clouds her judgement. She does not make choices based on the morality of something, but on the best possible outcome for HER. That is not to say she has no morality, that is to say she believes her morality should shape the outcome. This can be observed if she is the Divine; a tyrant. She needs as little power as possible, she reminds me of a politician. lol

So much truth.
 

Cept not , since many of the mages you run into in redcliff tell you how much they loved/missed the life at the circle but cannot go back due to the rebellion.
 
Mages like Fynn from DA O's Witch Hunt DLC also seemed pretty good at the ferelden circle and were allowed to leave the tower to do research and such.

http://en.wikipedia....ckholm_syndrome
 

I don't think Fenris is the same. It's more personal and tortured. He thinks he's tainted, and magic in general is filthy. He relishes in hatred.

I REALLY enjoy it when Fenris sides with the templars and I get to put him down like the mad dog he is.
 

Vivienne doesn't view it that way. She's just quoting the Chant of Light. That magic must serve, not rule. And that mages, of all people, know how dangerous it is. That you don't play with fire. She takes it seriously. Like any First Enchanter worth their title would.

>She's just quoting the chant saying magic should serve and not rule
>Desperately wants to become Divine

Seems legit!

[Shahadem]

Play the quest again, she was making a youth potion for her lover.

 

A youth potion using the venom sac from the most highly poisonous creature in Thedas which when administered instantly killed the drinker. Yep, sounds like a youth potion to me.

 

Plus, if it was just a youth potion, why would she refuse to tell you what the potion was going to do? She only refused to tell you because it was poison and you would stop her if you knew she was going to use it to kill her lover.

[TheLittleBird]

A youth potion using the venom sac from the most highly poisonous creature in Thedas which when administered instantly killed the drinker. Yep, sounds like a youth potion to me.

 

Plus, if it was just a youth potion, why would she refuse to tell you what the potion was going to do? She only refused to tell you because it was poison and you would stop her if you knew she was going to use it to kill her lover.

 

Read the notes in Vivienne's room.

Also, if you give her the fake wyvern heart, the Duke dies immediately without waking up.

[Shahadem]

 

If we let another Austrian lead a country, they'll surely resurrect national socialism! Herp a derp!

 

We also gotta stomp down Germany before they start another World War.

[Rifneno]

I haven't done Vivienne's quest and I never will, but it sounds like it was meant to be ambiguous.

[Shahadem]

Read the notes in Vivienne's room.

Also, if you give her the fake wyvern heart, the Duke dies immediately without waking up.

 

I gave her the real heart and the Duke still died immediately without waking up. Not really sure why that matters though since the result is the same.

[Rykoth]

I hated Viv at first, but when I listened to her reasoning for why mages need templars, why mages are dangerous, and why things should be a certain way... it clicked.

 

When you hear Cullen or another Templar bash the mages, it's easy to think of them as prejudiced asshats. When a *mage* gives a very reasonable explanation, it makes one stop to think.

 

My Mage Noble and Viv are like best pals.

[Shahadem]

They wrote an entire book about other things causing the rebellion.  In fact, the Seekers keeping it secret that the rite of tranquility can be reversed is generally accepted as the primary cause if one had to say a single thing was the cause.  Deal with it.

 

That was so stupid and clearly wrong I don't even know why Bioware wrote that piece of dialogue. The mages were clearly rebelling to gain their freedom, not because they suddenly found out that Tranquility was reversible. That doesn't even matter. Especially since the rebellion had been brewing for quite some time,all the way back to the Ferelden circle in DA:O. And at that time it was thought that Tranquility wasn't reversible. So the mages were ready to rebel long before they thought Tranquility might be reversible. It isn't even clear if anyone knew Tranquility was reversible besides Cassandra because none of the Tranquil in the rebel mage camp had had their Tranquility reversed.

[TheLittleBird]

I gave her the real heart and the Duke still died immediately without waking up. Not really sure why that matters though since the result is the same.

 

If you give her the real heart he wakes up for a few seconds and says something before dying. 

And yes, the result is the same, but it doesn't really make sense that she'd let you get after a Snowy Wyvern's heart, which seems to let him live just a moment longer, whereas a normal wyvern heart would kill him. Why would she go through all the trouble? 

 

"To get the Inquisitor involved", you might say. And true, she did get the Inquisitor involved. But why bring him to see the Duke. Besides, if I remember correctly, Vivienne gets mad if you give her the fake wyvern heart and she realizes you deceived her.