776 réponses à ce sujet

[Zwingtanz]

I liked Vivienne. Not every character has to be a 100% selfless hero type. Love her voice actress too.

[TheLittleBird]

 

That was so stupid and clearly wrong I don't even know why Bioware wrote that piece of dialogue. The mages were clearly rebelling to gain their freedom, not because they suddenly found out that Tranquility was reversible. That doesn't even matter. Especially since the rebellion had been brewing for quite some time,all the way back to the Ferelden circle in DA:O. And at that time it was thought that Tranquility wasn't reversible. So the mages were ready to rebel long before they thought Tranquility might be reversible. It isn't even clear if anyone knew Tranquility was reversible besides Cassandra because none of the Tranquil in the rebel mage camp had had their Tranquility reversed.

 

There is this wonderful thing called 'perspective', which applies to the people in Thedas just as it does to the people in our universe, 'in real life', if you will. Just because Cassandra says that "The rebellion should never have happened", and that the reversal of the Rite of Tranquility was the cause of the rebellion, doesn't necessarily mean that it's a fact and, therefore, the truth. It's how Cassandra sees it. 

[Rifneno]

I hated Viv at first, but when I listened to her reasoning for why mages need templars, why mages are dangerous, and why things should be a certain way... it clicked.
 
When you hear Cullen or another Templar bash the mages, it's easy to think of them as prejudiced asshats. When a *mage* gives a very reasonable explanation, it makes one stop to think.
 
My Mage Noble and Viv are like best pals.

Is this your first Dragon Age or something? There have been plenty of Circle-supporting mages in the series. The difference between ones like Wynne and Vivienne is that ones like Wynne are worthy of respect because they actually lived the asstastic Circle system. Vivienne was off rubbing elbows with Orlais' elite while real Circle mages were in a cell worrying if they're going to be made tranquil or raped today. Vivienne is scum because she thinks other mages should suffer the Circle system while she wines and dines with the Empress.

Literally no one says that mages don't need to be policed and trained properly. All anyone against the Circle system says is that the a bunch of crazy, drugged up religious fanatics are not the ones to do it.

Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to go back to DA2 and listen to some of the ambient dialogue. Just random dialogue in the Gallows. There's one where a mage freaks out and says she can't talk to you because if the templars catch her talking to outsides, they'll have her tortured. Or how about the one where some guy was worried about his lover because she disappeared for a few days... then he finally finds her, and it turns out some templar made her tranquil so that she'd be his sex slave. Anyone who doesn't think this system needs to be burned to the ground and started over from scratch... I can't even finish this sentence within the rules of the forum.

And I repeat: Vivienne should be made tranquil. She's fine with the system where it happens to other mages for no major offense, so I think she should endure what they have.

[Ashevajak]

I don't despise Vivienne...but I have found her somewhat disappointing.  Her expertise at the Game, thus far, appears to be more of an Informed Ability than anything else.  But thats on me, I guess.  I was expecting someone a little more Machiavellian, ruthless and cunning, a Gaspard (in The Masked Empire) or Loghain of the Game. She had a strong opening....but not much since. 

 

Plus I cannot help but think if she condescended to certain Orlesian nobles the way she does to the Inner Circle, they'd send the Antivan Crows in without a second thought. 

 

Full disclosure: I've not yet completed the game, so this may change.

[TheLittleBird]

I don't despise Vivienne...but I have found her somewhat disappointing.  Her expertise at the Game, thus far, appears to be more of an Informed Ability than anything else.  But thats on me, I guess.  I was expecting someone a little more Machiavellian, ruthless and cunning, a Gaspard (in The Masked Empire) or Loghain of the Game. She had a strong opening....but not much since. 

 

Plus I cannot help but think if she condescended to certain Orlesian nobles the way she does to the Inner Circle, they'd send the Antivan Crows in without a second thought. 

 

Full disclosure: I've not yet completed the game, so this may change.

 

The problem is that Vivienne isn't at court in Skyhold. One can't fully play the Game if those around them aren't playing anyway. 

[Rifneno]

While we're on the topic of her role at court, one has to wonder how she got that role. Most mages aren't allowed outside the Circle at all. She's allowed outside to the point that she's one of Celene's "advisors" and wields considerable political power. There was never given a good reason for all the allowances she has.

My, it's almost as if she used some sort of forbidden magic to persuade people to her side!

[Zwingtanz]

I don't know why anyone would recruit her if they don't like her Circle and Chantry views. She outright tells you what she's about at the start.

 

 

The same way Bull doesn't fit my vision for the Inquisition. Everything he's trying to sell me on is worthless. Merc. Bodyguard. Qunari spy. No thanks..don't have any use for it. I kept him for awhile, but I decided to restart a character (for other reasons). Not happening again.

B-but how can a party be complete without the stereotypical badass merc?

[TheLittleBird]

While we're on the topic of her role at court, one has to wonder how she got that role. Most mages aren't allowed outside the Circle at all. She's allowed outside to the point that she's one of Celene's "advisors" and wields considerable political power. There was never given a good reason for all the allowances she has.

My, it's almost as if she used some sort of forbidden magic to persuade people to her side!

 

She's smart, and a strong player when it comes to the Game. And strong players... well, strong players get anything they want, basically.

[Rifneno]

She's smart, and a strong player when it comes to the Game. And strong players... well, strong players get anything they want, basically.

Bull****. Mages aren't suddenly granted all these exemptions simply because they're good at Orlesian politics. The average mage couldn't even get a chance to prove they're good at it because they're restricted to the Circle and surrounded only by templars and other mages.

Either it's bad writing, or she's a skilled blood mage.

[TheLittleBird]

Bull****. Mages aren't suddenly granted all these exemptions simply because they're good at Orlesian politics. The average mage couldn't even get a chance to prove they're good at it because they're restricted to the Circle and surrounded only by templars and other mages.

Either it's bad writing, or she's a skilled blood mage.

 

Celene of House Valmont managed to become Empress to Orlais by being good at Orlesian politics. Who says a mage with a similar set of skills couldn't acquire a more... luxurious lifestyle?

 

As for how she even got to participate in the Game, Vivienne herself literally says this:

"Most Circles allowed mages to live away from the tower, either on their own or in service to the nobility. All that was required was permission from the First Enchanter."

 

Please don't suggest she used blood magic on the First Enchanter.

[Rifneno]

The average mage isn't as restricted as you make it to be. You pay attention to Kirkwall too much...which was a hellhole.

We've seen two Circles. Even the "good" one didn't let the average mage out of the tower. Yes, they are HEAVILY restricted. Besides which, we're not just talking about letting her out of the Circle for a while. We're talking about letting her gain major political power. FFS, she can wind up DIVINE. The entire schism between the two Chantries is that the southern Chantry believes the mages are not meant to rule in any capacity. And they make a mage the leader of the Chantry. Oh yeah, that doesn't smell fishy at all!

[Pee Jae]

Ehh. I like her. I'd like her a lot more if she wasn't so patronising to my Inquisitor. Matronising? Yes, my dear.

[Rifneno]

They didn't. You do. If you are so inclined to push the issue.

You have gotten better at avoiding the issue! (+1 skill)

[Rifneno]

How am I avoiding the issue?
 
You're the Inquisitor. You'll make her divine by your own political moves, power/influence level, and other various choices. It has nothing to do with blood magic.

No, she can become Divine without the Inquisitor intentionally favoring her at all. Besides which, she's the only strange candidate that can become Divine. Why would the Inquisitor's support mean more than the very principles the Chantry was founded on (i.e. magic is to serve man, not rule over him)? Ever asked Cassandra why you're not a candidate if you're a human mage? She literally laughs at you and says if they appoint a mage Divine, they might as well just declare themselves part of Tevinter. A large part of the Chantry doesn't even like the Inquisitor and thinks they're a heretic. Yet their maybe-ish support can overrule the single most important part of their religion? That's completely asinine.

[MrGDL87]

We've seen two Circles. Even the "good" one didn't let the average mage out of the tower. Yes, they are HEAVILY restricted. Besides which, we're not just talking about letting her out of the Circle for a while. We're talking about letting her gain major political power. FFS, she can wind up DIVINE. The entire schism between the two Chantries is that the southern Chantry believes the mages are not meant to rule in any capacity. And they make a mage the leader of the Chantry. Oh yeah, that doesn't smell fishy at all!

 

The Ferelden Circle let various mages outside the tower. There was Wynne, Iona, Finn, mages fighting the blight, that one mage with two apprentices fighting darkspawn on the road. Vivienne said the mage only needs the First Enchanter permission and I didn't get the impression that Irving was unreasonable. (BTW, I am not so blind to think that the Ferelden Circle was perfect)

 

It is not as if Vivienne was handed power on a plate. She is non-orlesian and used The Game to work her way up to an influential position (and not through blood magic). Vivienne would need to work extra hard in the Game just because she is an outsider.

 

Even by making Vivienne Divine could work as she is 'serving the faithful' by providing religious guidance. The 'ruling over man' would be left to the country leaders such Anora or Celene.    

 

 

[ApplesauceBandit]

Sure she's snob, and i don't agree with all of her views or how she treats other companions, but i actually really like Viv. Her party banter is great.

[prosthetic soul]

The problem with Vivienne is she's kind of like one of those black Republicans who looks down on all those poverty stricken African-Americans from her balcony in her 3 story mansion and says "TRY HARDER" while simultaneously sipping on vintage wine and sitting on the most expensive couch ever.  But it gets worse from there.  Then she tries to wrangle all the "African-Americans in poverty" who know how to shoot fire from their fingertips and put them back into separation camps.   She's a mage who gets to live in luxury while the other mages have to live in the circles. So she really shouldn't get to make that decision for anyone else. In other words, she's a bloody hypocrite.

 

So, at this point, I'm having a hard time figuring out who I hate more as a character: Sera or Vivienne.  Also, as one Yuji Kaido put it on another forum. 

 

"Vivienne is funny to me. I have never seen someone take so much pride in being a guy's side chick."

[prosthetic soul]

Mages end up with more freedom than they did before. All 3 divines change things.

 

She just doesn't allow freedom willy nilly, like Leliana. I'm assuming it's meritorious... seeing that her philosophy in general is about the responsibilities of magic. She values that first. Not freedom.

Okay, this is off topic but I love your avatar.   It's how 99% of my fights end up when I'm playing.  Cass is UNSTOPPABLE