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[Rifneno]

The Ferelden Circle let various mages outside the tower. There was Wynne, Iona, Finn, mages fighting the blight, that one mage with two apprentices fighting darkspawn on the road. Vivienne said the mage only needs the First Enchanter permission and I didn't get the impression that Irving was unreasonable. (BTW, I am not so blind to think that the Ferelden Circle was perfect)

Like you said, they all had special permission. And if you think Irving would give that special permission to every decent mage, you're gravely mistaken. Even if he wanted to, he wouldn't keep his position long if the templars thought he was too lenient.

Tell me something, have you ever played a mage warden that ratted on Jowan to Irving? Irving tells you to go along with it. Everything plays out the same until you leave and run into the templars waiting for you outside the basement. Greagoir wants to execute you. Irving then tells him that you weren't really in on it and were working as Irving's spy. This is where it gets fun. Greagoir doesn't care and still wants to execute you. You only live because Duncan invokes the Right of Conscription. Otherwise, Greagoir would have your head for following the rules and doing as your superiors told you to do, even at the cost of your friend.

This is the kind of "reasonable" person that Irving has to answer to. If he gives away too many passes, he's not going to be First Enchanter anymore.

It is not as if Vivienne was handed power on a plate. She is non-orlesian and used The Game to work her way up to an influential position (and not through blood magic). Vivienne would need to work extra hard in the Game just because she is an outsider.
 
Even by making Vivienne Divine could work as she is 'serving the faithful' by providing religious guidance. The 'ruling over man' would be left to the country leaders such Anora or Celene.

I don't know how you guys aren't getting this. This is not a matter of "being good at the game." This is like a Saudi national with sketchy ties to terrorism being elected President of the United States. It's not a matter of political skill, it's a matter of not being allowed to be a candidate to begin with.

[prosthetic soul]

Like you said, they all had special permission. And if you think Irving would give that special permission to every decent mage, you're gravely mistaken. Even if he wanted to, he wouldn't keep his position long if the templars thought he was too lenient.

Tell me something, have you ever played a mage warden that ratted on Jowan to Irving? Irving tells you to go along with it. Everything plays out the same until you leave and run into the templars waiting for you outside the basement. Greagoir wants to execute you. Irving then tells him that you weren't really in on it and were working as Irving's spy. This is where it gets fun. Greagoir doesn't care and still wants to execute you. You only live because Duncan invokes the Right of Conscription. Otherwise, Greagoir would have your head for following the rules and doing as your superiors told you to do, even at the cost of your friend.

This is the kind of "reasonable" person that Irving has to answer to. If he gives away too many passes, he's not going to be First Enchanter anymore.


I don't know how you guys aren't getting this. This is not a matter of "being good at the game." This is like a Saudi national with sketchy ties to terrorism being elected President of the United States. It's not a matter of political skill, it's a matter of not being allowed to be a candidate to begin with.

This honey badger is good at debate. 

[ZoliCs]

Wait, what?  Velanna was "very likable"?  In what universe is she "very likable"?

 

I'd take her over Vivi anyday everyday. (I actually quite like her)

[TheLittleBird]

Like you said, they all had special permission. And if you think Irving would give that special permission to every decent mage, you're gravely mistaken. Even if he wanted to, he wouldn't keep his position long if the templars thought he was too lenient.

 

No one said he's giving that permission to every decent mage. The point here is that such a permission exist, and it was obviously granted to Vivienne.

 

I don't know how you guys aren't getting this. This is not a matter of "being good at the game." This is like a Saudi national with sketchy ties to terrorism being elected President of the United States. It's not a matter of political skill, it's a matter of not being allowed to be a candidate to begin with.

 

You asked how she got her role at Court, right here. I and several other people answered by explaining how she worked her way up through the Game. As for how she, a Circle mage, became a player of the Game, that has to do with the aforementioned permission by the First Enchanter to live outside the Circle, in the service of a noble.

 

Her candidacy for becoming Divine is another matter. Not entirely, because it is connected to her having the power she has...  but the reason she, a mage, is even one of the people to potentially become Divine has to do with the state of southern Thedas. Which isn't much, if anything good to speak of. Corypheus left a lot of ruin and death in his wake. Now, I don't disagree with you on that a mage sitting on the Sunburst Throne goes against Chantry law. You are right in that. However, these are dark times, and maybe the rules need to be mended, if not broken, to allow for a brighter future.

[robertthebard]

I don't despise Vivienne...but I have found her somewhat disappointing.  Her expertise at the Game, thus far, appears to be more of an Informed Ability than anything else.  But thats on me, I guess.  I was expecting someone a little more Machiavellian, ruthless and cunning, a Gaspard (in The Masked Empire) or Loghain of the Game. She had a strong opening....but not much since. 
 
Plus I cannot help but think if she condescended to certain Orlesian nobles the way she does to the Inner Circle, they'd send the Antivan Crows in without a second thought. 
 
Full disclosure: I've not yet completed the game, so this may change.

You're mistaken. She's a master at the game, just look at the general trend of this thread for proof: She not only played these people's Inquisitors, she played them as well. To wit:

I have been told that the Chant is vague about mages ruling over man, despite the rift between Tevinter and the rest of Thedas on just that point.

A mage can't hold land or titles, but somehow, being Divine doesn't apply. Hi Connor, we regret to inform you and your family that we were misinformed when we sent you to the Circle, it turns out that we were misinterpreting the Chant. Even richer? Hey Mage HoF, sorry we were misinformed, all this time, you could have really been King/Queen. That's a big ouch to the HoF, if it were true.

They sincerely believe that she believes the Circles are what's best for the mages. The reality is, the Circles are what's best for her. Why wouldn't they be, she was never in them after she met her Duke.

[Catastrophy]

You're mistaken. She's a master at the game, just look at the general trend of this thread for proof: She not only played these people's Inquisitors, she played them as well. To wit:

I have been told that the Chant is vague about mages ruling over man, despite the rift between Tevinter and the rest of Thedas on just that point.

A mage can't hold land or titles, but somehow, being Divine doesn't apply. Hi Connor, we regret to inform you and your family that we were misinformed when we sent you to the Circle, it turns out that we were misinterpreting the Chant. Even richer? Hey Mage HoF, sorry we were misinformed, all this time, you could have really been King/Queen. That's a big ouch to the HoF, if it were true.

They sincerely believe that she believes the Circles are what's best for the mages. The reality is, the Circles are what's best for her. Why wouldn't they be, she was never in them after she met her Duke.

I still have the "Support Vivy" quest open on my map. When the Inquisitor suggested Vivy could become a candidate herself and she directly found it a great idea I thought "Not so fast, my dear!".

[Grieving Natashina]

 For now, all I can say is that I thought I would just dislike her before launch.  Her food description really...really did not help.  BioWare subverted my preconceptions for me yet again.

 

As it turned out, Vivienne is one of my favorite pro-Circle characters in the series now.  She was nothing but respectful to my character.  As a matter of fact, she was one of the few companions that started off by simply asking if I was alright after getting back from Adamant.   When I was expressing doubt about being everyone's Herald, she approved.  I lost no approval for admitting that I didn't believe in Andraste or the Stone.  When I was also expressing concern after the Well decision, she liked that too.

 

My Cadash didn't entirely trust her with the power of the Divine though.  She supported Leliana instead.

 

I think she's very well done and I look forward to travelling with her again.  In a way, she reminded me of how I felt about Morrigan: I thought her caustic and rather selfish attitude would make me just hate her.  Instead, Morrigan is one of my favorite friendships of the series.  The favorite for me for this game was with Cass, but I'm glad Vivienne is around.   I really enjoyed her friendship arc as an agnostic Dwarf.

 

This doesn't mean universal love from all of my characters though.  I know that my Qunari mage is going to loathe her, as will some of other characters I have in store.  I guess as a player, I can say that I like the character.  It doesn't hurt I've been a fan of her VA for years, and I think she's a terrific actress too.  

[Shahadem]

 

 

 

 

There is this wonderful thing called 'perspective', which applies to the people in Thedas just as it does to the people in our universe, 'in real life', if you will. Just because Cassandra says that "The rebellion should never have happened", and that the reversal of the Rite of Tranquility was the cause of the rebellion, doesn't necessarily mean that it's a fact and, therefore, the truth. It's how Cassandra sees it. 

 

 

There's perspective and then there's something that anyone with at least two brain cells would recognize as not being able to be the cause.
 

Think about it, how could that be the cause? The writers couldn't figure it out so they didn't bother even trying to flesh this out.

[robertthebard]

There's perspective and then there's something that anyone with at least two brains would recognize as not being able to be the cause.
 
Think about it, how could that be the cause? The writers couldn't figure it out so they didn't bother even trying to flesh this out.

You are the only person I know with two brains. Shakespearean Aside: Or do you?

[Shahadem]

That's assuming every Circle is the same. When not every Circle is. Which is exactly what Vivienne says. Your post, whether intended or not, makes it sound like every Circle's conditions were like those in Kirkwall. When Kirkwall was the absolute worst of the worst, as far as I know.

 

We don't need every circle to be a Kirkwall for the circle system to be unworkable on its face. We just need a system that denies mages their basic freedoms, and that's exactly what every circle is. It is completely immaterial that some circles are worse than others and some are better than others.

 

Viv's argument is that because some circles weren't as bad as Kirkwall, then the circle system should be reinstated.

[Shahadem]

You are the only person I know with two brains. Shakespearean Aside: Or do you?

 

Oh so I wrote two brains instead of two brain cells. Whatever.

 

At least I'm not blaming the tax hike on the fact that my favorite mechanical pencil broke.

[Grieving Natashina]

 

At least I'm not blaming the tax hike on the fact that my favorite mechanical pencil broke.

I've read all 24 pages of this thread, and I have no idea what you're referring to here.  I'm not taking sides in this debate, I'm just wondering what you mean.

[Steelcan]

I don't particularly care for her, I got some major Aria vibes coming off of her, and that wasn't a good first impression.

[Rifneno]

This honey badger is good at debate.

Thank you.

No one said he's giving that permission to every decent mage. The point here is that such a permission exist, and it was obviously granted to Vivienne.

I believe I said most mages aren't allowed, not all. If I said otherwise, I mispoke. Clearly some are allowed out.
 

I and several other people answered by explaining how she worked her way up through the Game. As for how she, a Circle mage, became a player of the Game, that has to do with the aforementioned permission by the First Enchanter to live outside the Circle, in the service of a noble.

In service to a noble is one thing. Advisor to the empress is an enitrely different matter. That's political, and she should've been stopped.
 

Her candidacy for becoming Divine is another matter. Not entirely, because it is connected to her having the power she has...  but the reason she, a mage, is even one of the people to potentially become Divine has to do with the state of southern Thedas. Which isn't much, if anything good to speak of. Corypheus left a lot of ruin and death in his wake. Now, I don't disagree with you on that a mage sitting on the Sunburst Throne goes against Chantry law. You are right in that. However, these are dark times, and maybe the rules need to be mended, if not broken, to allow for a brighter future.

A mage caused all that chaos. I don't believe the Chantry would decide that letting a mage rule them would be the appropriate response.

Also, Vivienne herself bleets on about how mages need to keep their heads low and not challenge things right now because "people are more afraid of magic now than anytime since the Imperium." So while she argues that mages shouldn't whine about the new templar restrictions (that don't apply to her, of course), she thinks it's fine and dandy to toss out the foremost tenant of the Chantry as long as it gets her ahead.

At the very best, she is the worst kind of hypocrite. At worst... well. As I've said, this is either terrible writing or she's a highly skilled blood mage. I can see the merit in either one.

We don't need every circle to be a Kirkwall for the circle system to be unworkable on its face. We just need a system that denies mages their basic freedoms, and that's exactly what every circle is. It is completely immaterial that some circles are worse than others and some are better than others.
 
Viv's argument is that because some circles weren't as bad as Kirkwall, then the circle system should be reinstated.

This. This right here. Any system that denies people basic freedoms and rights like the ability to marry and have children is a system that needs to be destroyed utterly and completely. The Circle, the Qun, whatever. I will always have nothing but the utmost contempt for anyone or anything that opposes such basic freedoms.

[Steelcan]

I don't think there's many people who'd disagree that the Circle needs some major reworking.  Lifting restrictions on travel and family rearing would certainly be a good call.  After all phylacteries are kind of around for that reason.

 

I also agree about Vivienne's selfish power grasping, I doubt its blood magic, but she's clearly not an altruist out to make life better for mages (even though she apparently does do this in her Divine epilogue because bad consequences are a no-no apparently)

[mikeymoonshine]

Tell me something, have you ever played a mage warden that ratted on Jowan to Irving? Irving tells you to go along with it. Everything plays out the same until you leave and run into the templars waiting for you outside the basement. Greagoir wants to execute you. Irving then tells him that you weren't really in on it and were working as Irving's spy. This is where it gets fun. Greagoir doesn't care and still wants to execute you. You only live because Duncan invokes the Right of Conscription. Otherwise, Greagoir would have your head for following the rules and doing as your superiors told you to do, even at the cost of your friend.

This is the kind of "reasonable" person that Irving has to answer to. If he gives away too many passes, he's not going to be First Enchanter anymore.

 

You are misrepresenting this situation. Greagoir never actually says he wants you executed in this situation he just gets mad when Jowan escapes and blames you and Irving for it, he wants to further investigate the issue after Jowan escapes rather than allow you to leave with Duncan. 

[yankblan]

It sounds like you are easily flabbergasted and may want to be examined by a medical professional.

 

Let me see if I have this straight... because the character wasn't written the way you wanted it to be written you found it to be quite shallow and was nothing more than a charicature of say Francis Underwood?  Assuming you didn't find that role also poorly written...

 

What would have made Vivienne a deeper character for you?  If she broke down and professed her love for your character and promised to give up all her ambition just for you?

 

Well, Frank is gay/bi, so he has that over Viv.

[Gaesesagai]

There are people who support Vivienne as Divine... that's hilarious really.

As to what I read here, someone mentioned something about how bending the rules a bit is necessary in times of crisis and how that justifies Vivienne being elected Divine.

Now, I for one coulnd't care less about the chantry... I'm against religion in all it's shapes and forms. Problem is, she, Vivienne, doesn't get on the throne with even the slightest intention to "fix" the disaster that is Thedas after Corypheus and the Mage Rebellion. She has no intention to help anyone, to make things better or anything even remotely good. Her only and absolute concern is her own gain. She wants power. And like any person similar to her, once she gets that power, at best she uses it solely in her interest, and at worst becomes drunk with it and abuses it to no end. So, coincidentally in this case, the rules are a good thing. I said "coincidentally" because that's the only way a religious organisation like the chantry gets anything right

And if that isn't obvious enough, you just need to analyze what she actually does once she is appointed Divine. Does she reform? Does she fix any of the issues that caused the Rebellion? No. She keeps things exactly as before, with a superficial boon (mages having a "bit" more freedom in theory) and instead makes everything even worse then before, as impossible a feat that might seem (all the conflict and general hysteria over a mage being divine).

She is just superficial and egotistic. The few occasions where she mimes emotions, are just for the audiences (in game and outside), to gain sympathy. And some people fall for that... hook, line and sinker

[mikeymoonshine]

And if that isn't obvious enough, you just need to analyze what she actually does once she is appointed Divine. Does she reform? Does she fix any of the issues that caused the Rebellion? No. She keeps things exactly as before, with a superficial boon (mages having a "bit" more freedom in theory) and instead makes everything even worse then before, as impossible a feat that might seem (all the conflict and general hysteria over a mage being divine).

She is just superficial and egotistic. The few occasions where she mimes emotions, are just for the audiences (in game and outside), to gain sympathy. And some people fall for that... hook, line and sinker

 

This isn't analyzing, this is just interpreting information in the way that suits your predetermined opinion best. 

 

Her reforms are a superficial boon coz you say they are, everything is worse than before coz you say it is. What excellent logic! No wonder you managed to suss her out so easily with such excellent reasoning. 

 

We don't know how Vivienne's (or anyone else's) reforms play out because we are not told, what we do know is that nobody restores the old system entirely. 

[Gaesesagai]

This isn't analyzing, this is just interpreting information in the way that suits your predetermined opinion best. 

 

Her reforms are a superficial boon coz you say they are, everything is worse than before coz you say it is. What excellent logic! No wonder you managed to suss her out so easily with such excellent reasoning. 

 

We don't know how Vivienne's (or anyone else's) reforms play out because we are not told, what we do know is that nobody restores the old system entirely. 

 

Umm, yes we are told... lol. The end game slides. It's a summary, but that's exactly the point... it summaizes what she does or more specifically "will do" as a divine... So my points stand. The only personal opinions I gave in my post are about religion and her lack of emotions. For everything else there are these things called facts, that are arguments enough

[Gaz83]

Aside from her being rather shallow. She's mainly with the inquisition for political gain. She says "we need the circles" and wants to keep them in their current state, not because she actually believes in them, but because that's where the heart of her power is. If the circle is gone, she's irrelevant again. She plays yes man for the chantry and says the other mages should just stay in their place. While simultaneously she's running around in a huge palace mingling with the nobility and basically getting free reign to do whatever she wants. She says "Mages are dangerous" then will use her magic against civilians over petty gripes just to make herself look more dangerous and intimidating. She's a hypocrite, she's manipulative, and she cares primarily for her own political power.

 

If Vivienne were a book, that would be a fitting synopsis. 

 

Also, I'd probably burn it. 

[Wildspirit]

Viv's a ****** but I actually like her for two reasons : 

 

• she has very good banters with every one in the party
• she's the best mage out there if you don't play Knight Enchanter yourself... 

 

I'll happily slap her sometimes though... but hey she has her utility, unlike some of the other shallow companions...

[AlyssaFaden]

I liked her quite a bit - and as Wildspirit indicates, she's a great Knight Enchanter - but running with her and Blackwall really does start to reveal what a ****** she is. Her and Sera I get: two very opposite sides of the world, so their back and forth is fine and Sera gives as much as she gets.

 

But poor old Blackwall just seems like a big teddybear getting punched on by Vivienne ... it's hard to listen to. I never have her in my group when running with him, now.

[mikeymoonshine]

Umm, yes we are told... lol. The end game slides. It's a summary, but that's exactly the point... it summaizes what she does or more specifically "will do" as a divine... So my points stand. The only personal opinions I gave in my post are about religion and her lack of emotions. For everything else there are these things called facts, that are arguments enough

 

Your point stands because you say it does.... 

 

We are not told outside of a few lines that claim mages have more freedom and responsibility in the circles. "superficial boon" and "a bit more freedom in theory" do not appear in that epilogue, they are your own interpretations that you have just tacked on without any kind of justification. We don't know the extent of the freedom and power they have other than obviously not freedom to separate from the circle and not more power than her. 

 

So no your interpretations are not facts they are your interpretations. 

[Gaz83]

She feels like the only character who isn't - in D&D terms - on the good end of the spectrum.

 

For that reason alone, I'm glad she's included. Doesn't mean I like her, though.