776 réponses à ce sujet

[schall_und_rauch]

Sera sums it up, doesn't she?
"Vivienne is a b*tch. But she knows it. She better!"

I think she's a marvelous character, and even though I hate her, I think she's a great addition to the game.
Bad characters are characters that leave me cold. Vivienne doesn't leave people cold.

[robertthebard]

Your point stands because you say it does.... 
 
We are not told outside of a few lines that claim mages have more freedom and responsibility in the circles. "superficial boon" and "a bit more freedom in theory" do not appear in that epilogue, they are your own interpretations that you have just tacked on without any kind of justification. We don't know the extent of the freedom and power they have other than obviously not freedom to separate from the circle and not more power than her. 
 
So no your interpretations are not facts they are your interpretations. 

Isn't "The Chant isn't really clear about what 'Magic is meant to serve man, not rule over him' means" interpreting the facts to fit what the poster wants? The fact is, everyone here who supports a mage, any mage, as the Divine got played. We're not "bending" the rules, we're throwing them out the window. We have been told all the way back to Origins, that in Southern Ferelden, mages aren't allowed to hold titles. Now we're told "...unless they're Viv". It would be the height of irony if it turns out that she is indeed a blood mage, and that putting her in charge is the worst possible scenario. I have no idea, and really, it won't matter, since I might play some characters that befriend her, but none of them are going to put her in charge of the Chantry. Especially not any Human Andrastians, who have actually read and understood the Chant of Light.

[Steelcan]

I wonder what's with the recent strain of "if you hate a character that means they are well written" I wonder how much of it is attributable to the string of great TV anti-heroes and villains we've had in the past few years

[Kinsz]

Isn't "The Chant isn't really clear about what 'Magic is meant to serve man, not rule over him' means" interpreting the facts to fit what the poster wants? The fact is, everyone here who supports a mage, any mage, as the Divine got played. We're not "bending" the rules, we're throwing them out the window. We have been told all the way back to Origins, that in Southern Ferelden, mages aren't allowed to hold titles. Now we're told "...unless they're Viv". It would be the height of irony if it turns out that she is indeed a blood mage, and that putting her in charge is the worst possible scenario. I have no idea, and really, it won't matter, since I might play some characters that befriend her, but none of them are going to put her in charge of the Chantry. Especially not any Human Andrastians, who have actually read and understood the Chant of Light.

The Chantry isnt really shown in a good light in this game if you recall, if anything a shake up is what it needs, as an Inquisitior that believes that why should i care about the chant of light ? so far i have had Cassandra as my divine in all my playthroughs but next one will be Vivienne , because as far as i know she has done everything she promised she would do once she becomes Divine.

[Kinsz]

I'm finding this is common with anyone opposed to Vivienne. You end up talking about how they interpret or read her motivations, instead of anything she actually says or is in the epilogue. I don't know how to respond to how people personally interpret things. I respond to the game itself. And this discussion would be better if we all just kept it at that. We all need common reference to have a decent debate. Her "secret motivations" aren't a common reference.

 

The only good argument against her is if you're opposed to the Circles, period. I understand that completely. 

This , i found myself ignoring a bunch of posts for that exact reason as they appeared utterly biased and made no sense.

[Farangbaa]

I'm finding this is common with anyone opposed to Vivienne. You end up talking about how they interpret or read her motivations, instead of anything she actually says or is in the epilogue. I don't know how to respond to how people personally interpret things. I respond to the game itself. And this discussion would be better if we all just kept it at that. We all need common reference to have a decent debate. Her "secret motivations" aren't a common reference.

 

The only good argument against her is if you're opposed to the Circles, period. I understand that completely. 

 

Lets just say that people have gotten very... 'creative' after ME3 and IT.

 

And I don't like it one bit.

[robertthebard]

The Chantry isnt really shown in a good light in this game if you recall, if anything a shake up is what it needs, as an Inquisitior that believes that why should i care about the chant of light ? so far i have had Cassandra as my divine in all my playthroughs but next one will be Vivienne , because as far as i know she has done everything she promised she would do once she becomes Divine.

There is no reason, at all. None. Putting Viv in as Divine literally spits in the face of everything we've learned, but hey, maybe a shake up is what's needed. My Andrastian Inquisitors will disagree with you, especially a Human Mage, who was forced to give up their title, minor as it was, to go into a Circle. I'm not sure how it will turn out, but how it should turn out is every Kingdom in Southern Thedas should be turning against the Chantry, for violating their own tenets, and we're not talking about rules made by Divines over the years, we're talking about Tenets that were, according to Chantry teachings, handed down from Andraste herself. How many Nobles lost children to the Circle, or how many Noble families over the centuries, because magic can't rule man? Now we're saying: Sorry about that, you were mistaken after all?

[ZoliCs]

The only good argument against her is if you're opposed to the Circles, period. I understand that completely. 

 

What about the Grey Wardens? If another Blight comes my Inky would make her kill the Archdemon alone and see how it goes...

[Kinsz]

Yeah, you can't avoid shakeup. I don't know if that's a good thing, but that's the cards I'm dealt. I romance Cassandra (everytime!), but she's perfect for me as a candidate. I'm torn on that. Call me shallow and selfish for even factoring romance in this choice... whatever.. she's just great. I like Leliana too, but she requires just as large a leap of faith from me as Vivienne. What they both enact is bold and a little frightening. But hey.. Considering that everyone takes a leap of faith in me, maybe I should return the favor for someone.

Funny because i have romanced Cassandra in every single playthrough as well and will continue to do so lol but yes i agree with you regarding Vivienne and Lelianna, im leaning more towards the former however since despite thinking that Leliana's heart is in the right place i dont believe that Mages should be completely free , the Circles must remain.

[Kinsz]

There is no reason, at all. None. Putting Viv in as Divine literally spits in the face of everything we've learned, but hey, maybe a shake up is what's needed. My Andrastian Inquisitors will disagree with you, especially a Human Mage, who was forced to give up their title, minor as it was, to go into a Circle. I'm not sure how it will turn out, but how it should turn out is every Kingdom in Southern Thedas should be turning against the Chantry, for violating their own tenets, and we're not talking about rules made by Divines over the years, we're talking about Tenets that were, according to Chantry teachings, handed down from Andraste herself. How many Nobles lost children to the Circle, or how many Noble families over the centuries, because magic can't rule man? Now we're saying: Sorry about that, you were mistaken after all?

I am but you dont have to, this is the beauty of choices my friend , we all play our Inquisitor the way we want, my Inquisitor is Andrastian as well but i believe the Chantry is rotten and i will fix it even if i have to tear it down first.

[robertthebard]

There's nothing Andraste said about Divines, for one. There obviously wasn't such a thing. Early after her death, the Chantry interpreted her words so strictly that they didn't allow any magic use at all.. except to keep mages locked away and only use them to light the braziers. It was the first Inquisition that expanded that and made the Circles. All of these rules you think are set up by Andraste are from the Inquisition. Andraste merely said that magic must be used to serve others. Does that mean lighting braziers? Or just sitting around waiting for the next blight? There's got to be more to it than that. She also said magic was a gift. She must've valued it. And probably would love a mage following her teachings or serving as brothers or sisters. But why not divine?

So, in other words, you're going to interpret the meaning how you see fit, instead of how it's presented? All those potential Nobles that were sent to the Circle instead of being allowed to hold their titles were what, a mistake? You see, I'm basing my position on centuries of history in Thedas, on the Fate of Connor, if he lives, since he's not legally allowed to hold a title. I'm not twisting the game lore to fit my position, I'm using the game lore, as presented, to fit my position. I'm not trying to say that we've misinterpreted the meaning of the Chant, or who's words they are, to fit my position, I'm using the Chant, as presented, to fit my position, and I don't have to try any mental gymnastics to do it. My interpretation fits, because it's the one that we've been given since we stepped foot into Thedas.

It's like I said earlier, Viv is such a master at The Game that she didn't just play the Inquisitors, she played the players too. All this twisting the lore to fit her being Divine? That's the result of being played. The funny? I don't even hate her, really, I just don't see how Thedas is going to allow a mage to not only hold a title, but is going to allow a mage to be the Divine. The Inquisitor is easy to understand; they were the only one that could close the Breach. But with two other perfectly viable candidates for Divine, this isn't a decision that should have 0 consequences.

[robertthebard]

How am I twisting them? Apparently we agree on the main tenet. "Magic must be used to serve man. Not to rule over him." Remember that that I hold that view. Try not to ascribe bad motivations to me too. There's no conspiracy.
 
But what you're doing is equating Andraste with the entire history of the Chantry. I'm merely wondering what the original words mean. It's not twisting them. I'm taking them at face value, instead of tacking on 1000 years of history to them.

Really? So how is making a mage Divine not allowing a mage to "rule over him"? At this point in history, the Chantry is the second most powerful organization in Thedas, maybe third, since Tevinter isn't suffering from this shake up, behind the Inquisition, with a much longer arm, since it is the, and I hate to say this, but it seems applicable, only major religion in Thedas.

[robertthebard]

That's the kicker. Is it actually ruling or serving? It's up to everyone to decide.. but you're hellbent on telling everyone it's just about power.

How isn't it about power?

[robertthebard]

I guess that says more about the player than anything. I don't see the Chantry as a means to power. The power is there to use, just like magic, but where it's applied is what matters.

I just want to point out this inherent contradiction: you don't see the Chantry as a means to power, but it depends on where it's applied? The seat of the Divine has power, inherently. She is in complete control of the Circles, the Seekers, and the Templars. This direct control is power, whether a mage is holding the chair or not, it's power, and it's a lot of it. So, if the Free Marches decide they're not going to follow a mage Divine, is she just going to let them form their own Chantry? No, and she really can't. Because doing so diminishes her power, and will give other factions the idea that they can do the same, so it's off to the Exalted March we go, to bring them back in line. How is that not power? The Divine isn't like the Pope, with lots to say, and no pull to really do anything.

[AzureAardvark]

The Divine isn't like the Pope, with lots to say, and no pull to really do anything.

 

Actually, *exactly* like the Pope ... of maybe a thousand-ish years ago.

Exalted March = Crusade

 

Seems like that's what the position is patterned after.

 

Choosing who to support for Divine was one of the few choices I actually payed a lot of attention to ... much as I love Leliana to death, a hardened Leliana as Divine? Nuh uh, pass.

 

And Viv was so into The Game that I wasn't sure what she'd do given the position.

 

Cass was the only one (at least in my playthrough) with the right combination of humility, zeal, and idealism I thought the job required. 

 

Not disagreeing, more like clarifying, I guess.

[Icinix]

Great character.

 

**** views.

 

Pretentious and ambitious.

 

Yeah - I don't liker her either.

 

..but great character.

 

They did well with her.