776 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

I'm gonna add one more thing. I like the message that it sends in general to other mages. That they can still excel in life, but not without effort. Leliana just basically rewards all mages for simply existing. After a rebellion and terrorist attack, no less. Throw a fit and you get rewarded! It's more about fundamental humane rights to her. Which is valid too.. but Vivienne's approach is also interesting. It's more about rights earned through merit and service. That is more in line with Andraste's teaching than Leliana. Yet she's the one corrupting everything apparently.

I can't say if she corrupts everything, we haven't really seen any results, yet. The Faith has been corrupted though, through a very literal interpretation of what's been presented. I get that we're trying to look at in this fresh new way, but the religion is old, and it's tenets have been around since the beginning. Viv is doing one of the things that's supposed to be forbidden, ruling over man with magic. The fact that she has complete control of the Circles, Seekers and Templars means that she can enforce her will when she decides to; someone pisses her off: Exalted March. A Circle disagrees with her? Annul it. She has the power and the authority to do it.

Another little tidbit of historical lore that just occurred to me, how can there be any confusion about "Magic was meant to serve man, not rule over him" means? This all came about after a war with Tevinter. So how isn't trying to feign vagueness about the meaning of the passage not ignoring what the context was about?

[lil yonce]

*Complaining to Cullen.

 

Cullen is no longer a Templar, Vivienne. She does need to run to him every time a stupid idea pops in your head, nor should you be giving him orders on what the Templars should be doing. Cullen takes his orders, from my Inquisitor, not you Vivienne, my Inquisitor.

I also don't like this and I hope they didn't go behind my back anyway. I can just imagine the two of them, Cullen and Vivienne conferring over his chess board like staggered sentinels over a crumbling castle, plotting out circle-like restrictions for Fiona's mages in a hail mary play for the old ways. Bleurgh.

[Sundance31us]

I found the banter between her and Iron Bull to be rather fun.

[MrGDL87]

I have read some posts saying that a player who has Vivienne as Divine is naïve or 'being played' and I couldn't disagree more.

 

I chose Vivienne as Divine (*Massive Shock*) and my inquisitor is Andrastian (*Double Shock*). I knew what Vivienne's values were before talking about the New Divine. I agree with her views so I supported her (It was an informed decision on my part). When she is made Divine, I got what I expected in the epilogue. Therefore, this doesn't make me naïve because the factual evidence of what happens when she is Divine is expected. Anything further is just speculation at this point.

 

I was a bit sceptical in having a mage as a Divine but it all comes down to the interpretation of "magic must serve man". Vivienne can justify this by saying that she serves the faithful through religious guidance. The ruling over men is seen through the countries and their rulers such as Celene. Vivienne has power as the Divine but there isn't enough information in the epilogue to suggest that she misuses this power to rule over man.

 

However, if in the future Vivienne turns into an insane abomination where all of southern Thedas crumbles to the ground, I will gladly return to this thread saying I was naïve   but it would make my world state of DA4 more interesting.

 

Also I'm loving some of StreetMagic posts     

[robertthebard]

That's all fair, dude. I understand the concern. I just feel like I'm pushed to resurrect the Chantry in a new way, no matter what though. And that Viv and Leli require a leap of faith, but for different reasons. All I know is from what I gather from Vivienne from the main game, she doesn't have bad intentions for the Chantry. She's isn't personable, she isn't a great person even.. but I think she believes in how the Chantry has been operating, more or less. The only bad intentions solely lie in the idea that she's a mage. But I'm willing to see that as a positive. That's where the leap of faith comes. Leliana is asking me to take faith in all mages. Vivienne is asking for faith in one mage, with power.

Who'd a thunk it? We managed to go from 180 degree perspectives to some common ground, because we hashed it out. I still think that Cass is the best choice overall, all things considered, but even that is based only on what we have seen, so far. Hardened Leliana scared the crap out of me, and she was my first Divine. Actually, she scared the crap out of me before she got to be Divine, but it was too late by then...

[robertthebard]

Agreed. I love Cass. And hardened Leli saddens me.. but I'm glad we can improve her. I didn't know at first the softened one can still be Divine, until later. It seemed like she didn't want the power.

Yeah, what a difference a couple of games make. Hardening her was definitely the right choice in Origins, but here, I'm not so sure...

[Kinsz]

Agreed. I love Cass. And hardened Leli saddens me.. but I'm glad we can improve her. I didn't know at first the softened one can still be Divine, until later. It seemed like she didn't want the power.

I have yet to make Leliana a Divine what does she do when she is hardened ?

[Rifneno]

I wonder what's with the recent strain of "if you hate a character that means they are well written" I wonder how much of it is attributable to the string of great TV anti-heroes and villains we've had in the past few years

QFT.

I'm gonna add one more thing. I like the message that it sends in general to other mages. That they can still excel in life, but not without effort. Leliana just basically rewards all mages for simply existing. After a rebellion and terrorist attack, no less. Throw a fit and you get rewarded! It's more about fundamental humane rights to her. Which is valid too.. but Vivienne's approach is also interesting. It's more about rights earned through merit and service. That is more in line with Andraste's teaching than Leliana. Yet she's the one corrupting everything apparently.

This is the stupidest goddamn thing I've read in a very, very long time. You should be absolutely ashamed of yourself. Seriously. Giving them basic human rights and not brutally oppressing them is "rewarding"? Ugh. I don't even... *grunts in sheer disgust and opens the ignore prefs*

[Steelcan]

I have yet to make Leliana a Divine what does she do when she is hardened ?

kills everyone who disagrees with her

[Ryzaki]

kills everyone who disagrees with her

 

Yeah she sounds a bit crazy when you disagree with her about it too.

 

I think my assassin was quietly getting some herbs together. He could get a new spymaster. His current one was crazy.

[Kinsz]

kills everyone who disagrees with her

LOL really? well good thing i always soften her up.

[FaWa]

Vivienne is a star. 

[Steelcan]

Yeah she sounds a bit crazy when you disagree with her about it too.

 

I think my assassin was quietly getting some herbs together. He could get a new spymaster. His current one was crazy.

she sounded like more of a crazy after staying hardened than Anders ever did

[Rifneno]

Leliana doesn't seem to go either way if you don't bother to do her personal quest. Even if you don't soften her, it says nothing about assassinations and such. Maybe it's just as simple as not taking her to that Chantry so she never gets the epiphany that murder is awesome.

[Ryzaki]

she sounded like more of a crazy after staying hardened than Anders ever did

 

Yep.

 

All I could think was "my warden...what have you done?"

[Kinsz]

Seriously.. I can't believed I got accosted like that. It's just... bizarre.

 

Here I am in a playthrough that is siding with Leliana as we speak. And just for simply having different scenarios and other characters is shameful apparently.

Eh i wouldnt worry about it, its the internet keyboard warriors are a common occurrence ," what ? you dont agree with me ? well well well ...your mum."

[AzureAardvark]

Maybe it's just as simple as not taking her to that Chantry so she never gets the epiphany that murder is awesome.

 

For some reason, I really liked that turn of phrase.

 

 

Yeah, I'm generally used to some of it.. But that sounded deeply angry.. like I sliced open a puppy and fed on their intestines.

 

Maybe you were using the wrong fork ... ? 

[Vordish]

Well, here is a question; Does it remove all possibility of Vivienne becoming Divine if I don't recruit her into the Inquisition?

[Kinsz]

Yeah, I'm generally used to some of it.. But that sounded deeply angry.. like I sliced open a puppy and fed on their intestines.

LOL BSN isnt even that bad when it comes to these sort of behavior trust me.