776 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

Deeply disgusted, more like. As anyone should be at a person who thinks basic human rights should be reward for good behavior.

[Ryzaki]

Well, here is a question; Does it remove all possibility of Vivienne becoming Divine if I don't recruit her into the Inquisition?

 

It should considering half the reason they want Cass/Leliana is because they were part of the Inquisition.

[TheLittleBird]

There's perspective and then there's something that anyone with at least two brain cells would recognize as not being able to be the cause.
 

Think about it, how could that be the cause? The writers couldn't figure it out so they didn't bother even trying to flesh this out.

 

The whole reason the conclave at the White Spire came together in the first place was the fact that someone allegedly found the cure for Tranquility. During the conclave things got out of hand and led to the Circles ultimately breaking away from the Chantry, whereas the Lord Seeker declared the Nevarran Accord null and void. Cassandra believes that if the Lord Seeker had revealed that he knew about the cure all along, something could've been done to avoid the tensions at the White Spire rising even further. 

 

I believe I said most mages aren't allowed, not all. If I said otherwise, I mispoke. Clearly some are allowed out.

 

You said this, which is what I responded to:

 

Like you said, they all had special permission. And if you think Irving would give that special permission to every decent mage, you're gravely mistaken. Even if he wanted to, he wouldn't keep his position long if the templars thought he was too lenient.

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

In service to a noble is one thing. Advisor to the empress is an enitrely different matter. That's political, and she should've been stopped.

 

Why? Is there a law against mages gaining political power? I don't like making Vivienne Divine, that's a step too far for me, but rising through the noble ranks in Orlais doesn't seem like a problem to me. 

 

A mage caused all that chaos. I don't believe the Chantry would decide that letting a mage rule them would be the appropriate response.

Also, Vivienne herself bleets on about how mages need to keep their heads low and not challenge things right now because "people are more afraid of magic now than anytime since the Imperium." So while she argues that mages shouldn't whine about the new templar restrictions (that don't apply to her, of course), she thinks it's fine and dandy to toss out the foremost tenant of the Chantry as long as it gets her ahead.

At the very best, she is the worst kind of hypocrite. At worst... well. As I've said, this is either terrible writing or she's a highly skilled blood mage. I can see the merit in either one.

 

Maybe a mage ruling the Chantry is just what's needed for southern Thedas. A sensible mage, who understands that magic is feared in all of Thedas at the moment and knows how to handle it.

 

But I agree, Vivienne doesn't seem like the right candidate to become Divine, for me. I'm just saying that at times like these Chantry rules may not need to be followed as strictly as one might suggest. After all, every Divine Victoria seems to change things anyway. 

[Steelcan]

Yes mages are prohibited from holding landed titles so political power is right out.

 

Vivienne (and Morrigan) getting so close to the Empress should have set off the spidey senses of every Templar within a 1000 mile radius.

[StrangeStrategy]

Deeply disgusted, more like. As anyone should be at a person who thinks basic human rights should be reward for good behavior.

 

Basic Human Rights:
The Right to a sustainable livelihood: Mages have everything they need to sustain their life given to them in the Circle.

 

Thee Right to Basic Services: Yeah, they can get education, food, etc. Stuff is provided.

 

The Right to life and security: Yeah, they're pretty safe in their fortified guarded tower. Far safer than the average peasant getting trampled in a civil war, or starving in the slums, you know. Life is nice and warm in the Circle, unless you know, a bunch of mages go crazy like they did in Ferelden and Kirkwall.

 

The Right to be heard: Was taken away after Fiona attempted to start a rebellion. As Celene would say, harshly silencing one voice gives rise to a hundred whispers.

 

The Right to an Identity: Sure, cut your hair weird, wear weird robes, be a man, woman, whatever you want. Yep, they have that freedom.

I don't know about you, but what do you consider "basic rights" if not these? They had all of them, until they lost their right to have group meetings in Cumberland or whatever... And that's only because they wanted a rebellion.

[Steelcan]

the right to start a family, have children, etc...

 

I am pro-Circle, but I won't pretend its perfect

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Deeply disgusted, more like. As anyone should be at a person who thinks basic human rights should be reward for good behavior.

 

 

Except the people in question are not basic humans. It's more like dealing with different breeds of dog, attending to their unique needs/behavior accordingly. Can't just say, "there are no breeds, only dogs!"

[Maiafay]

Even dogs are bred.

[Rifneno]

Why? Is there a law against mages gaining political power?

Uhh, yes? It's one of the basic parts of the Chantry's doctrine on mages? Gaider even said that a mage Hawke becoming viscount was a mistake due to them not being able to have different endings based on class and that they'd never have allowed a mage to hold that position.

But hey, we're just talking about arguably the single most politically powerful person in Thedas, apparently that's different from residing over one hellhole of a city.

Life is nice and warm in the Circle

The delusional mind of a templar supporter, ladies and gentlemen.

[TheLittleBird]

Uhh, yes? It's one of the basic parts of the Chantry's doctrine on mages? Gaider even said that a mage Hawke becoming viscount was a mistake due to them not being able to have different endings based on class and that they'd never have allowed a mage to hold that position.

 

Vivienne still simply is the First Enchanter of the Imperial Court. That's an actual position for a mage to hold. Now, she has used her skill as a player of the Game to turn that position into something more than it ever was, but it's still just that position. That's what I'm referring to here. 

[Steelcan]

Vivienne still simply is the First Enchanter of the Imperial Court. That's an actual position for a mage to hold. Now, she has used her skill as a player of the Game to turn that position into something more than it ever was, but it's still just that position. That's what I'm referring to here. 

and she should have had templars inspecting her soup after seeing the power she has managed to accrue

[Rifneno]

Vivienne still simply is the First Enchanter of the Imperial Court. That's an actual position for a mage to hold. Now, she has used her skill as a player of the Game to turn that position into something more than it ever was, but it's still just that position. That's what I'm referring to here.

No, she's also one of Celene's advisors. Which is a pretty significant no-no, but pales in comparison to the whole Divine thing.

[TheLittleBird]

No, she's also one of Celene's advisors. Which is a pretty significant no-no, but pales in comparison to the whole Divine thing.

 

I know. But she is an advisor.... in the position of First Enchanter of the Imperial Court. She turned that position into an advisory role. Doesn't mean it's suddenly not a position for a mage to hold.

[Steelcan]

I know. But she is an advisor.... in the position of First Enchanter of the Imperial Court. She turned that position into an advisory role. Doesn't mean it's suddenly not a position for a mage to hold.

the fact that she is able to exercise real political power is whats wrong

[rocsage]

Racist misogynistic and wrong. Just thought I'd say how this thread will look in an hour so you can prep.

takes one to know one...I saw nothing racist about the opening post.

[Medhia_Nox]

@StreetMagic:  The man who talks about the "rights" of the Psyker - is truly a Heretic in the eyes of Him on Terra.  There is only one solution for the Heretic.

 

The real answer - is that Games Workshop has done a far better job showing what Chaos does to dipshit psykers who think they can control themselves. 

 

And what happens if the Imperium ignores them.

[TheLittleBird]

the fact that she is able to exercise real political power is whats wrong

 

If you think that, sure. I disagree. But to each their own. Not with Vivienne as Divine, but in her current position as enchanter to the Imperial Court. She is a mage, sure, but she knows how to play the Game and is realistic in her views and beliefs. She was able to bend the rules and work around the system in such a way that she, as essentially a 'court jester', became a strong voice at the Imperial Court. 

[Scarlet Rabbi]

Vivienne is the best female cast member in this game, hands down. Icy, strong and uncompromising, 

 

If you feel that Vivienne feels like she is better than your Inquisitor, it's because she is.

[Rifneno]

Vivienne is the best female cast member in this game, hands down. Icy, strong and uncompromising, 
 
If you feel that Vivienne feels like she is better than your Inquisitor, it's because she is.

20 bucks says this feminist would want her head if she was a guy.

[Steelcan]

If you think that, sure. I disagree. But to each their own. Not with Vivienne as Divine, but in her current position as enchanter to the Imperial Court. She is a mage, sure, but she knows how to play the Game and is realistic in her views and beliefs. She was able to bend the rules and work around the system in such a way that she, as essentially a 'court jester', became a strong voice at the Imperial Court. 

and the templars should have had her making runes long before it came to that

[teh DRUMPf!!]

More real life condemnations, I see.

 

Here's a simple suggestion: Have fun! You're here with fans. Not enemies of humanity.

 

Bill Casey part deux.

 

That's racist...

You should be ashamed of yourself...

[Vordish]

Vivienne being better than my Inquisitor?

 

I beg to differ.

 

She is an admitted hypocrite and backstabbing political opportunist because of her ignoring the factors of her own life and comfort in direct opposition to what she says should happen concerning others.

 

My Inquisitor takes the time to help people, which I could have ignored throughout the storyline. I brought Vivienne along with me; NO APPROVAL from her. She is a mean-spirited diva b**** who cares only for her own agenda. The mere idea that people could support such atrocious behavior is indicative to a lot of things.

 

She is a "mistress" to a Duke while stating that marriage is for alliances and politics. That is a fancy way of saying she is a w**** and she loves the life-style it affords her. Despicable.

 

Having a so-called "grace" and "sophistication" about your mannerism does not equate to being righteous in your actions. Blackwall, Cole, Varric and others have shown outright remorse and at least an appearance of a repentive disposition for some of their actions. Vivienne is arrogant enough to behave like she always has a justified reason for her antics.

 

If you like that sort of thing for character drama and for an interesting diversion from the so-called "norm" of righteous/evil portrayal then that is up to you, but in any objective setting in real life this would be appalling and downright heinous.

 

I think we all know that; its just not PC to admit so.

[Precursor Meta]

I like Vivienne. Even made her Divine.