776 réponses à ce sujet

[hairlessOrphan]

That's because Viv isn't a typical everyday authoritarian figure.

She can be very nurturing, has clear insights from a Mage perspective on the Mage Templar War that are not coming from an emotional knee jerk response and her Side Quest shows she doesn't have a heart of Stone either.

Get to know Viv instead of picking her up and never speaking with her, she's worth the time

 

Yeah, I did the same thing with her as I did Sera: I gave her a lot of chances. Because I like liking characters, and I keep wanting to give them a chance to change my mind. Also, she spent a significant amount of time in my party as the only mage (other than mine) with a on hit +guard weapon, in the midgame. So I actually heard a lot from her.

 

Not sure why everyone assumes I didn't interact with them, but I heard the same thing when I said Sera was thin.

 

I didn't get a lot of nurturing, but honestly I couldn't bring myself to pick the suck-up dialogue options. Maybe it's just me, but I default to treating strong characters and people as equals instead of as my betters. That's where the Vivienne schtick started to wear thin with me. She is clearly written to expect to be treated as a superior. But... she's not, right? I mean, just as the most obvious example, absolutely everyone here saw through her dialogue about Cassandra being the Divine, right? So does that mean we are all master manipulators seeing through all the ploys? I doubt it. So: she wasn't written to be very good at it, so why are we expected to pretend she was?

 

I think the easiest explanation is just that Vivienne wasn't designed to be a character that was examined too deeply. Hence, my complaints.

[Lewie]

Yeah, I did the same thing with her as I did Sera: I gave her a lot of chances. Because I like liking characters, and I keep wanting to give them a chance to change my mind. Also, she spent a significant amount of time in my party as the only mage (other than mine) with a on hit +guard weapon, in the midgame. So I actually heard a lot from her.

 

Not sure why everyone assumes I didn't interact with them, but I heard the same thing when I said Sera was thin.

 

I didn't get a lot of nurturing, but honestly I couldn't bring myself to pick the suck-up dialogue options. Maybe it's just me, but I default to treating strong characters and people as equals instead of as my betters. That's where the Vivienne schtick started to wear thin with me. She is clearly written to expect to be treated as a superior. But... she's not, right? I mean, just as the most obvious example, absolutely everyone here saw through her dialogue about Cassandra being the Divine, right? So does that mean we are all master manipulators seeing through all the ploys? I doubt it. So: she wasn't written to be very good at it, so why are we expected to pretend she was?

 

I think the easiest explanation is just that Vivienne wasn't designed to be a character that was examined too deeply. Hence, my complaints.

I did try many times to speak to her but it seemed obvious she was a plot point. Her character is stagnant. 

[KaiserShep]

I don't think I like Vivienne, but at the same time, I really like Vivienne. It's weird. Her commentary is really enjoyable, and she seems to be a character I can really respect.

[Cespar]

My dear Vordish,

First of all I must mention that I deeply regret stumbling upon this thread while perusing these dreadful 'forums', if one might even call them that, and finding it to be so full of hostile comments towards my character. Truly, it pains my heart to witness such an impugnation on a website that, as far as I've been told, is for the fans of BioWare's work and its characters. It especially saddens me seeing that an esteemed member of the online sphere like yourself would spread such bitter and jaundiced comments about me, right when we all find ourselves in perilous times. After all, it seems that those aspiring to godhood have tried so hard to achieve their goal, that they left nothing but death and ruin in their wake.

Tried and failed, I must remind you, for it was the Inquisition that stopped this threat. An organization of which I am a part, my dear, as you very well know. Since we've reached the subject, it occurs to me; why would such a prestigious ally in the war against Corypheus, for that is the name the threat has evidently been given, care for the, quite frankly yawn-inducing opinions of an individual such as yourself? I see no accomplishment on your behalf, besides being able to use words such as 'loathing' and ' despicable' in coherent sentences, a feat rarely seen on forums such as this one. But then, evidently, there's your absolutely atrocious use of interpunction and the unforgivable absence of an apostrophe. I'll leave it up to you to figure out where exactly this horrible incident occurs.

Most sincerely,

"that B*** Vivienne",
more commonly known as

Madame de Fer

I love this and Vivienne.     You win the thread! 

[OHB MajorV]

Like Sten?

And another fellow I don't care for....

[lil yonce]

I hate Vivienne because she is the Circle. She embodies it completely. Gilded. Glacial. Unbearably conservative. Manipulative. Soulless. Patronizing. Arrogant. The relic of a bygone era in the new dawn on the horizon. I could go on but you get the picture.

[Reznore57]

Am I the only one who found her a bit pathetic?

I mean she certainly can be impressive and articulate

But you know I felt like she was like those exotic animals , who have crazy colors just to pretend they might be dangerous and scare predators away .

 

I got the feeling she joined the Inquisition because the Orlesian court fell to pieces , and Morrigan stole her job(something she's furious about , she 's so freaking jealous of Morrigan , it's hilarious.)

The Circle feel to pieces and most mages followed Fiona.

The Chantry also fell to pieces , and well she saw the Inquisition was rising and decided to take her chance.

(Also it seems her love affair with the Duke was getting sour , or him dying could be a problem )

 

She also greatly admire the Divine , which I found funny because the Divine is partly responsible for the mage rebellion and lost control of everything.I got the feeling she was bullshitting me big time on this.

Same way she has a banter with Dorian , and she's like "of course I'm sad about Celene's death , darling , I admired her." and Dorian just tells her to stop pretending.He knows she doesn't care .

 

I don't think she cared about the Inquisitor much , I think she sees him/her as a mean to an end , just like pretty much anything else.

I mean she does have feelings every once in a while but she quickly put them aside and just keep her eyes on whatever goal she has going on.

[Enesia]

I don't think I like Vivienne, but at the same time, I really like Vivienne. It's weird. Her commentary is really enjoyable, and she seems to be a character I can really respect.

 

This so much. The party banter with her was the best. Every time I was laughing so hard every time because she is such a ******. Every time she antagonizes a character and the verbal war goes on. I can't help myself. I love her because of her harshness, but hate her for it too.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Am I the only one who found her a bit pathetic?

I mean she certainly can be impressive and articulate

But you know I felt like she was like those exotic animals , who have crazy colors just to pretend they might be dangerous and scare predators away .

 

I got the feeling she joined the Inquisition because the Orlesian court fell to pieces , and Morrigan stole her job(something she's furious about , she 's so freaking jealous of Morrigan , it's hilarious.)

The Circle feel to pieces and most mages followed Fiona.

The Chantry also fell to pieces , and well she saw the Inquisition was rising and decided to take her chance.

(Also it seems her love affair with the Duke was getting sour , or him dying could be a problem )

 

She also greatly admire the Divine , which I found funny because the Divine is partly responsible for the mage rebellion and lost control of everything.I got the feeling she was bullshitting me big time on this.

Same way she has a banter with Dorian , and she's like "of course I'm sad about Celene's death , darling , I admired her." and Dorian just tells her to stop pretending.He knows she doesn't care .

 

I don't think she cared about the Inquisitor much , I think she sees him/her as a mean to an end , just like pretty much anything else.

I mean she does have feelings every once in a while but she quickly put them aside and just keep her eyes on whatever goal she has going on.

 

Your mileage may vary, I found the very fact that she didn't end up kissing the PC's ass to be a good thing in and of itself. My PC accepted that she was there mostly to achieve her goals, and didn't much care so long as she was killing Red Templars with the best of them.

 

She does have serious issues, but she's not unreasonable at all. Her assessement of the Mage rebellion is, frankly, quite spot on, as we see in game. Morrigan is a dangerous mage who toys with powers she doesn't understand (albeit yeah, the jealousy is real). 

 

Plus, her banters are hilarious. With Dorian, where they trash talk each other. With Iron Bull, whom she makes into an obedient puppy. With Sera, who has found more than her match for the title of Queen ****** of Skyhold and gets verbally annihilated.

 

The one thing that I found really unsympathetic is her treatment of Cole; even companions rebarbative to him, like Blackwall and Sera, end up being a bit softer as the banter goes. Vivienne always treats him like some sort of rabid dog who might try to kill everyone any second now, even after he proves himself time and again.

[Lewie]

If they had shown a human side to her I probably would feel different but the game didn't give that, so I digress.

[robertthebard]

You just couldn't handle her awesomeness

It's funny, because I'd agree with you, until I'm running through Emerald Graves today, and she's going on about my pet demon. You would think that, being the First Enchanter of any Circle, she'd know her Fade denizens, but no. Her knowledge is on par with Sera's, they're from the Fade, they're a demon.

[hairlessOrphan]

Morrigan is a dangerous mage who toys with powers she doesn't understand (albeit yeah, the jealousy is real). 

 

The one thing that I found really unsympathetic is her treatment of Cole; even companions rebarbative to him, like Blackwall and Sera, end up being a bit softer as the banter goes. Vivienne always treats him like some sort of rabid dog who might try to kill everyone any second now, even after he proves himself time and again.

 

Morrigan is ... ambitious, and she trusts herself to handle whatever powers she's fooling with. That's really the crux of it, right? She's what Vivienne is pretending to be. Morrigan believes she's strong. Vivienne believes strength comes from convincing other people you're strong, but she's still scared of all kinds of things. I kind of think if you like Vivienne for her strength and ambition, you are obligated to like Morrigan even more for consistency's sake.

 

That's the thing, right? Morrigan has more faith in herself than Vivienne does, so she isn't afraid to poke ancient magics. Maybe she's wrong about that (although I doubt it. She's kind of written to be the Big Mysterious Magic Master), but that isn't the point. The point is Vivienne's caution (about for ex: mages, spirits, and the Fade. See: her treatment of Cole) doesn't stem from wisdom, it stems from fear. Morrigan isn't afraid of much, is she?

 

I don't know, I think they're both kind of silly. But Morrigan comes a lot closer to actually embodying a strong character than Vivienne.

[skotie]

On the whole I actually like Vivienne. To me she reminds me very much of Morrigan, well if Flemeth hadn't raised her out in the wilds, if she instead ended up among a circle, I think she would have turned out similar. Do I want her as the divine? No, I wouldn't say I fully trust ether of them, but they are useful allies.

[dantares83]

she is very very ambitious. but i warm up to her after her personal quest. she has feelings after all.

[skotie]

Morrigan isn't afraid of much, is she?

Well Morrigan had a much better teacher. It's easy to not fear the things you have a greater understanding of than most.

[Maman Brigitte]

My dear Vordish,

First of all I must mention that I deeply regret stumbling upon this thread while perusing these dreadful 'forums', if one might even call them that, and finding it to be so full of hostile comments towards my character. Truly, it pains my heart to witness such an impugnation on a website that, as far as I've been told, is for the fans of BioWare's work and its characters. It especially saddens me seeing that an esteemed member of the online sphere like yourself would spread such bitter and jaundiced comments about me, right when we all find ourselves in perilous times. After all, it seems that those aspiring to godhood have tried so hard to achieve their goal, that they left nothing but death and ruin in their wake.

Tried and failed, I must remind you, for it was the Inquisition that stopped this threat. An organization of which I am a part, my dear, as you very well know. Since we've reached the subject, it occurs to me; why would such a prestigious ally in the war against Corypheus, for that is the name the threat has evidently been given, care for the, quite frankly yawn-inducing opinions of an individual such as yourself? I see no accomplishment on your behalf, besides being able to use words such as 'loathing' and ' despicable' in coherent sentences, a feat rarely seen on forums such as this one. But then, evidently, there's your absolutely atrocious use of interpunction and the unforgivable absence of an apostrophe. I'll leave it up to you to figure out where exactly this horrible incident occurs.

Most sincerely,

"that B*** Vivienne",
more commonly known as

Madame de Fer

[hairlessOrphan]

Well Morrigan had a much better teacher. It's easy to not fear the things you have a greater understanding of than most.

 

Absolutely. So this is going back to the larger point that - in terms of personal strength, power, and ambition - Morrigan is clearly superior to Vivienne.

 

From a writer's standpoint, consider: how would a reasonably confident character - if she is actually supposed to embody confidence and strength and ambition - approach this dynamic? Being face to face with someone who is superior - largely because that someone had a better teacher. Petty jealousy? Hrm. That doesn't seem right.

 

So there are two possibilities.

 

One: Vivienne's writer is aware that Vivienne is actually an insecure, fearful creature masking her issues with bluff and bravado. Ok, reasonable interpretation, except that never really gets explored, so... wasted opportunity.

 

Two: Vivienne's writer just didn't think about this very hard, and instead went with a cliched reaction for how ambitious people treat rivals - forgetting entirely that part of Vivienne's character was supposed to also be strength and confidence.

[Lewie]

Well Morrigan had a much better teacher. It's easy to not fear the things you have a greater understanding of than most.

It isn't because of their power it is what may happen if they succeed.

 

One can only guess as always. That's why everyone should have 2 playthroughs, different paths.

[Des]

I wanted to strangle her the entire game.

 

Her entrance was amazing. I was so excited to add her to my party! I ran back to Haven and had a chat with her- and instantly, she's a ******. She treated my elf mage like a dull-witted, dirty, lowly elven servant not worthy of her time. No matter how many times I tried to have a civil chat. She was even nasty to me after I helped her with her stupid potion.

 

I spent every interaction with her wanting to shove her off the balcony.

[SebastianP]

So strong, competent women intimidate you? Gotcha. 

[caradoc2000]

Vivienne is scheduled to star in Despicable Me 3

[Lewie]

So strong, competent women intimidate you? Gotcha. 

Heh. No.

 

I am female and more than competent my dear. Pardon me while I shoo away the sheer thought of a human with a spirit.

[OHB MajorV]

Morrigan is ... ambitious, and she trusts herself to handle whatever powers she's fooling with. That's really the crux of it, right? She's what Vivienne is pretending to be. Morrigan believes she's strong. Vivienne believes strength comes from convincing other people you're strong, but she's still scared of all kinds of things. I kind of think if you like Vivienne for her strength and ambition, you are obligated to like Morrigan even more for consistency's sake.

That's the thing, right? Morrigan has more faith in herself than Vivienne does, so she isn't afraid to poke ancient magics. Maybe she's wrong about that (although I doubt it. She's kind of written to be the Big Mysterious Magic Master), but that isn't the point. The point is Vivienne's caution (about for ex: mages, spirits, and the Fade. See: her treatment of Cole) doesn't stem from wisdom, it stems from fear. Morrigan isn't afraid of much, is she?

I don't know, I think they're both kind of silly. But Morrigan comes a lot closer to actually embodying a strong character than Vivienne.

I was with ya until, "that's the thing right"? And then the rest was read in sera's voice and I just can't take that seriously. I expected it to end with "that's how it is innit"?

[hairlessOrphan]

I was with ya until, "that's the thing right"? And then the rest was read in sera's voice and I just can't take that seriously. I expected it to end with "that's how it is innit"?

 

I want to click the Like This button so bad, right now.