776 réponses à ce sujet

[goishen]

Racist misogynistic and wrong. Just thought I'd say how this thread will look in an hour so you can prep.

 

 

Yah, I've got one word to say to you.  

 

Hubris.

 

If you don't know what the word means, go look it up.  We'll wait.

 

Back?  Okay.  I know you've got plenty of arguments against it, but I'll tell ya this.   She begins off by telling you how it was in Kirkwall.   She has no knowledge, except for second hand, of what happened in Kirkwall.   So, it is therefore, hubris.  I know what happened in Kirkwall.   Don't try and tell me what happened in Kirkwall was the worst of worst, when in DA:O they tried to invoke the right to kill all of the mages.

[Adanu]

And yet Vivs outcome as Divine is one of the best for Mage Sympathisers.

Let's just say she puts that Moron Fiona in her place at last.

I respectfully disagree. The circles are still a disaster waiting to happen yet again if kept in the status quo. Templars as jailers is what started the mage rebellion, and is what will start another in time.

 

The best outcome is Leliana. We need better solutions for mages, and she's willing to allow mages to find the answers without leashing them.

 

Cassandra is just a less strict version of VIvienne who wants to change things a bit to Master/servant rather than Master/slave like the circles were. Leliana is the only real chance thedas has to truly deal with the issues mages have.

[holdenagincourt]

 

• Most reasonable view on the Templar-Mage issue in the series

 

 

Only people with an extremely strong prior status quo position on the mage-templar conflict would concur with this. On this point she is simply a doctrinaire conservative who will never be persuaded to moderate her stance. That doesn't seem especially reasonable to me.

 

Cassandra, to me, possesses the "most reasonable" outlook. Which makes sense, since she is one of the very few people who has both been able to view the conflict from a position above both the mages and templars and possesses the power to effect her vision of how things should be.

[Kinsz]

Vivienne is a tough one to read , one minute you think she is all business then next you find her worrying about Cole's well being ( that only happens in a banter ) , she knows what she wants and doesnt need you , most people cant get with that.

[pengwin21]

I felt like Vivienne made a lot of sensible arguments with regards to the Circle. If you talk with her, she will admit that there are bad templars and there is room for reform- after order has been restored. I tend to agree with her personally that Fiona declaring the mages in rebellion after Kirkwall just made people fear magic more. Her views on the Circle coincide with some of the more reasonable mages we've met like Wynne, Finn, and Bethany. 

 

Aside from her political views, I feel that Vivienne is actually a person who wants to help the people of Thedas overall and she can show a softer side with the Inquisitor, Cassandra, and Duke Bastien- Cole also reveals some of her vulnerabilities. I think the iconography of the mask is an important symbol for Vivienne- she hides her true self behind a veneer of utmost confidence and ruthless ambition.

 

I can understand why people don't like Vivienne, particularly if they're anti-Circle though- her manner can be rather abrasive.

[OHB MajorV]

Yah, I've got one word to say to you.

Hubris.

If you don't know what the word means, go look it up. We'll wait.

Back? Okay. I know you've got plenty of arguments against it, but I'll tell ya this. She begins off by telling you how it was in Kirkwall. She has no knowledge, except for second hand, of what happened in Kirkwall. So, it is therefore, hubris. I know what happened in Kirkwall. Don't try and tell me what happened in Kirkwall was the worst of worst, when in DA:O they tried to invoke the right to kill all of the mages.

Two words for you.

Reading comprehension.

That was simply me letting him know what he could expect to be called on the bsn for sharing his opinions of a character that others do not share. Pretending to be my intellectual superior by throwing out synonyms for words that are easier explained in layman's terms is ambitious though I'll give you that.

[goishen]

Let's put it this way....

 

 

On my followup playthroughs, 'cause I'm still on my first playthrough (I know, odd that I'm in the spoiler section), I'm not gonna get Vivienne at all.

[goishen]

Two words for you.

Reading comprehension.

That was simply me letting him know what he could expect to be called on the bsn for sharing his opinions of a character that others do not share. Pretending to be my intellectual superior by throwing out synonyms for words that are easier explained in layman's terms is ambitious though I'll give you that.

 

 

Really?  Like...  What?  Uppity ******?   Arrogant without any real reason to be arrogant?   How are those synonyms for a simple word like hubris?

[lady8jane]

I didn't get a lot of nurturing, but honestly I couldn't bring myself to pick the suck-up dialogue options. Maybe it's just me, but I default to treating strong characters and people as equals instead of as my betters. That's where the Vivienne schtick started to wear thin with me. She is clearly written to expect to be treated as a superior. But... she's not, right? I mean, just as the most obvious example, absolutely everyone here saw through her dialogue about Cassandra being the Divine, right? So does that mean we are all master manipulators seeing through all the ploys? I doubt it. So: she wasn't written to be very good at it, so why are we expected to pretend she was?

 

I think the easiest explanation is just that Vivienne wasn't designed to be a character that was examined too deeply. Hence, my complaints.

 

I don't think that she was ever supposed to be a master manipulator. She is quite literally the Iron Lady. She knows what she wants, says it loud and clear, and if you don't agree with her, she gives you attitude. She is an iron fist in a silk glove. But that silk glove is only there because she likes pretty clothes and not because she wants to hide something.

 

My inquisitor never sucked up to her and they got along perfectly fine. But then I'm totally ok with people having opinions that are different from my own in real life.

[robertthebard]

Yah, I've got one word to say to you.  
 
Hubris.
 
If you don't know what the word means, go look it up.  We'll wait.
 
Back?  Okay.  I know you've got plenty of arguments against it, but I'll tell ya this.   She begins off by telling you how it was in Kirkwall.   She has no knowledge, except for second hand, of what happened in Kirkwall.   So, it is therefore, hubris.  I know what happened in Kirkwall.   Don't try and tell me what happened in Kirkwall was the worst of worst, when in DA:O they tried to invoke the right to kill all of the mages.

You are, of course, aware that Meredith invoked the Rite too, right?

[hairlessOrphan]

I don't think that she was ever supposed to be a master manipulator. She is quite literally the Iron Lady. She knows what she wants, says it loud and clear, and if you don't agree with her, she gives you attitude. She is an iron fist in a silk glove. But that silk glove is only there because she likes pretty clothes and not because she wants to hide something.

 

My inquisitor never sucked up to her and they got along perfectly fine. But then I'm totally ok with people having opinions that are different from my own in real life.

 

I don't think that's true, and if you bring Cole along with her, Cole's banter clearly shows how much she's hiding.

 

Also, my dislike for Vivienne wasn't about her opinions. I mean, I disagree with status quo ante bellum, but I didn't have a problem with Vivienne wanting that.

[Laughing_Man]

 

• Most reasonable view on the Templar-Mage issue in the series
• Best mage in the game
• Impeccable fashion sense
• Has strong opinions of her own rather than just kissing the player's ass the whole game
• Hilarious
• Hates Sera

10/10 Would keep in my party permanently

 

 

• Reasonable? Don't make me laugh. Reasonable usually implies the willingness to compromise, she just wants to keep the broken system that allowed her to excel politically.
• The Inquisitor is better as KE, if only for the fact that you have access to that green AoE of doom in addition to the healing spell.
• Fashion sense? Well, certainly not common sense. You know that there is something wrong with your style, when an Avaar barbarian calls you on your clothing choice and sounds like he makes sense.
• Opinions, everyone got them. The only question is, are you willing to consider and respect other points of view as well? That's the difference between a fanatic and a reasonable person.
• Hilarious? B*** please. Ridiculous is more like it.
• From Sera you don't expect much, I mean she is just a street kid, she doesn't know better. Vivienne is supposed to be educated and refined, above such petty quarrels. Yeah right.
  
   

1/10. Brought her out only to do her personal quest.

Her AI as a KE is very poor and does not make use of her class enormous potential.

All in all, waste of time.

[keyip]

Don't try and tell me what happened in Kirkwall was the worst of worst, when in DA:O they tried to invoke the right to kill all of the mages.

 

Because the circle was being overrun by demons and blood mages. If the Warden hadn't shown up, demons would have taken over the entire tower. The templars were probably right in their assessment.

[lady8jane]

I don't think that's true, and if you bring Cole along with her, Cole's banter clearly shows how much she's hiding.

 

Also, my dislike for Vivienne wasn't about her opinions. I mean, I disagree with status quo ante bellum, but I didn't have a problem with Vivienne wanting that.

 

 

You are aware that "hiding things" and "being a master manipulator" are two different things?

 

Vivienne plays The Game, sure. But she decided to play it on your side. And because of that she is quite frank with you, which is an immense advantage for your inquisitor. She is a weapon you can wield and a pretty powerful one.

 

I'm also not quite sure what you don't like about the character.

[hairlessOrphan]

You are aware that "hiding things" and "being a master manipulator" are two different things?

 

Vivienne plays The Game, sure. But she decided to play it on your side. And because of that she is quite frank with you, which is an immense advantage for your inquisitor. She is a weapon you can weild and a pretty powerful one.

 

I'm also not quite sure what you don't like about the character.

 

Yeah. I'm talking about hiding things - her fear during her Harrowing, her petty jealousy of Morrigan.

 

Also, she's not frank with you, she doesn't say what she wants loud and clear, and she's certainly trying to be a manipulator (in addition to, but separate from, hiding things. Just to clarify), isn't she? The conversation about the next Divine did happen, after all.

 

What I don't like about her character is that she's not very well written. It's all the way back on page 2, but the gist is: I found her a transparent and poorly developed caricature.

[OHB MajorV]

Really? Like... What? Uppity ******? Arrogant without any real reason to be arrogant? How are those synonyms for a simple word like hubris?

I see you're still missing my point, using hubris is fine, assuming you're the only one who posses the knowledge to know its meaning makes you sound, well like viv.

[Han Shot First]

Vivenne is one of my favorite characters in DA:I.

[goishen]

 

• From Sera you don't expect much, I mean she just a street kid, she doesn't know better. Vivienne is supposed to be educated and refined, above such petty quarrels. Yeah right.

 

 

The only difference between her and Sera is money.   There needs to be a middle class, and I think that's what the BioWare dev's intended to show.

 

 

You are, of course, aware that Meredith invoked the Rite too, right?

 

 

No, but thanks for pointing that out.   Now I know never to romance her.   Thanks!

[keyip]

Also, she's not frank with you, she doesn't say what she wants loud and clear, and she's certainly trying to be a manipulator (in addition to, but separate from, hiding things. Just to clarify), isn't she? The conversation about the next Divine did happen, after all.

 

What I don't like about her character is that she's not very well written. It's all the way back on page 2, but the gist is: I found her a transparent and poorly developed caricature.

 

I found her to be fairly frank without revealing everything (nobody ever does that.)

 

I also found to be pretty well written, far more than Wynne was. Generally when people hate a character they're created fairly well. Wynne's views are similar to Vivienne but she inspired more boredom than hate because she was more of a caricature. 

[goishen]

I see you're still missing my point, using hubris is fine, assuming you're the only one who posses the knowledge to know its meaning makes you sound, well like viv.

 

 

Well, that's great.  I could give a **** less how I sound.   It's how Vivienne sounds in game that I care about.   Or rather don't give a **** about, as has been evidenced by my previous posts.

[lady8jane]

Yeah. I'm talking about hiding things - her fear during her Harrowing, her petty jealousy of Morrigan.

 

Also, she's not frank with you, she doesn't say what she wants loud and clear, and she's certainly trying to be a manipulator (in addition to, but separate from, hiding things. Just to clarify), isn't she? The conversation about the next Divine did happen, after all.

 

What I don't like about her character is that she's not very well written. It's all the way back on page 2, but the gist is: I found her a transparent and poorly developed caricature.

 

People who are your allies telling you what their opinions are is them trying to manipulate you? Is that what you are saying?

 

I found Vivienne to be a character who is very well written. Her background, her fears, her insecurities, her political opinions, her love life ... that's one coherent package. I can clearly understand why she is like she is and what her motivations are. I cannot see an exaggeration of certain characteristics or oversimplification of certain characteristics, which would be what makes a character a caricature. I'm not really getting which characteristics you had in mind when you said that. Care to explain?

[Rekkampum]

I utterly love Vivienne. With a passion.

 

She completely flies into the face of what you'd expect a mage to be and her views of the Mage Rebellion are very nuanced and pragmatic.

[hairlessOrphan]

People who are your allies telling you what their opinions are is them trying to manipulate you? Is that what you are saying?

 

What? No. People who want to be Divine giving you a list of qualities that they think the Divine should have and then suggesting someone who totally doesn't have those qualities while obviously being themselves the supposed embodiment of those qualities is them trying to manipulate you.

 

Wasn't that covered? Didn't everyone see through that conversation?

[Fardreamer]

I honestly love Vivienne. She's the only character who a Evil inquisitor can count as a friend. I wish there were a few more companions like her, and I wish she was romanceable too. But I understand why she's not. She doesn't possess the emotion of love. Relationships are just about the advantages they can bring.

[lady8jane]

What? No. People who want to be Divine giving you a list of qualities that they think the Divine should have and then suggesting someone who totally doesn't have those qualities while obviously being themselves the supposed embodiment of those qualities is them trying to manipulate you.

 

Wasn't that covered? Didn't everyone see through that conversation?

 

She suggests Cassandra, who has exactly the qualities she mentions. (And who became Divine in my first playthrough.)