I utterly love Vivienne. With a passion.
She completely flies into the face of what you'd expect a mage to be and her views of the Mage Rebellion are very nuanced and pragmatic.
As a pragmatic guy she makes a lot of sense to me.
Wasn't that covered? Didn't everyone see through that conversation?
Or maybe she was implying it was time for things to change.
What? No. People who want to be Divine giving you a list of qualities that they think the Divine should have and then suggesting someone who totally doesn't have those qualities while obviously being themselves the supposed embodiment of those qualities is them trying to manipulate you.
Wasn't that covered? Didn't everyone see through that conversation?
LOL talk about blowing things out of proportion , not even Bioware saw through that convo like you did.
Was the OP the one who, in another thread, talked about real world races along the lines of "you stay away from mine, I'll stay away from yours" (why that sort of appalling comment hasn't warranted an immediate ban is beyond me)?
If so, that should tell you all you need to know about why he has such a visceral hate for Vivienne.
I love her conversations with Sera. Sera keeps trying to go all Red Jenny on her, but Vivienne completely out classes her. Everything Sera tries to do is turned around on her.
Her party interactions are one of the reasons I refuse to bring her along. It seems like she's just got to belittle and try and break people down to prop herself up. Her fear is she's losing her place in the world and her carefully garnered status. And she's got people like Sera, a commoner - raised on the streets mostly, who heads an organisation of people belittled by nobles. Blackwall, an admittedly flawed man, who made a terrible decision in his past - and has been atoning ever since. Solas, an elven apostate with no formal traning, yet shows great competency with Magic, and eloquence when he's speaking.
She can't really win against Solas, but the things she says to Sera and Blackwall just make me want to turn around and slap her. Coming from someone who doesn't wish violence on anyone, that's some strong writing to influence that response.
It's almost she approached The Inquisitor just for becoming a Divine. 
Sera v Vivienne amuses the bejeezus out of me.
She suggests Cassandra, who has exactly the qualities she mentions. (And who became Divine in my first playthrough.)
I liked her a lot, not to say I agree with her on much but she's an amazing character.
Her political status and opinions are very interesting. She is intelligent and many of the things she says are well reasoned, there is truth to her opinion on the rebellion for example. She didn't agree with it but she wasn't arguing that it was wrong, only that it was misguided at the time and reckless (which is true).
Other things she is objectively wrong about or somewhat closed to but the reasons for these things are realistic. She views Cole as a demon for example and her mind never seems to change even though the Inquisitor can learn exactly what Cole is. Still it's possible Cole could become a demon and it seems like he got pretty close when he was at the spire. So her mistrust in him has some logic to it even if she is completely closed to understanding what he is.
She also views the Wardens as a relic of the past. She probably doesn't know that Wardens are the only ones who can kill Archdemons, so this is understandable.
Her as Divine could be quite beneficial to those who are willing use the circle system the way she was and the circles will probably be better under her watch but that doesn't mean the system will work for everybody.
That said, I take it back. Apparently, we did not all see through this conversation.
Inferences are neither reliable nor fact, and are often prejudiced by the preconceptions of the listener.
Inferences are neither reliable nor fact, and are often prejudiced by the preconceptions of the listener.
And yet, even if you fully support Cassandra throughout this conversation, at the end of it you get the Support Vivienne table mission.
She tells you "should have grace, charm, and ..." then if you ask her what she thinks of other Inquisition members, she explicitly says "if Cassandra had some charm, she would make a great leader."
You have to admit, she's getting at something, here.
EDIT: No? No. Ok, we don't have to admit anything. Wow. She's not implying anything, because of course you can't think of anyone better, I mean, who has grace, charm, and an iron will? Besides the person you're talking to, I mean.
Modifié par hairlessOrphan, 14 décembre 2014 - 07:37 .
She tells you "should have grace, charm, and ..." then if you ask her what she thinks of other Inquisition members, she explicitly says "if Cassandra had some charm, she would make a great leader."
You have to admit, she's getting at something, here.
That's ... a stretch. Cassandra has fairly different opinions to Vivienne on some issues, and a different approach to things. If she's telling you Cassandra has all the necessary qualities of a great Divine EXCEPT for charm, then it's only natural to conclude (from her own statements) that she doesn't see herself as the perfect Divine either.
Sera v Vivienne amuses the bejeezus out of me.
Got to love how Vivienne is owning her, and Sera is literally Vivienne's b*tch.
Go Viv! 
EDIT: No? No. Ok, we don't have to admit anything. Wow. She's not implying anything, because of course you can't think of anyone better, I mean, who has grace, charm, and an iron will? Besides the person you're talking to, I mean.
Leliana
I don't think Vivienne was necessarily a bad character, but I cannot tolerate her for any length of time.
Her political motivations were too obvious, and I have zero patience for people who are clearly trying to use me. She obviously wants the restoration of the old order because she was poised to achieve power within that institution. She really has no other element to her character than being a sociopath.
Who wouldn't want a Margaret Thatcher expy with extreme sociopathic tendencies to preside over the resurrected remains of a failed institution? Every other mage might as well sleep with a Templar's sword at their throats, just so long as there's no hint that any of those rules apply to her.
Only basic, crude psychoanalysis of the character is required. She doesn't want power; she wants safety. Fear is everything, the core of her being. Her jealousy of Morrigan is probably the most obvious example of the profound insecurities that riddle her.
The strongest woman in the game is Fiona. There's a character who has been through hell and back-- literally. A minority faced with lethal discrimination who is villified for making a choice that was never a choice at all, but did so with grace and reason amidst systematic bloodshed. Fiona is the person I imagined my Warden from DA:O would be if ever I met them again.
Fiona has been dealt the hardest hand in Thedas. The scene where Alistair banishes her is probably the most poignant and agonizing of them all. And for a former Gray Warden who somehow lost the darkspawn taint to have to watch her son face the same destiny she was spared from by cruel chance?
That is a strong female character. Vivienne's only accomplishment is being an insufferable aristocrat who achieved minor political success. Get back to me when she's had a tenth of the tragedy Fiona has endured.
The strongest woman in the game is Fiona. There's a character who has been through hell and back-- literally. A minority faced with lethal discrimination who is villified for making a choice that was never a choice at all, but did so with grace and reason amidst systematic bloodshed. Fiona is the person I imagined my Warden from DA:O would be if ever I met them again.
As a pragmatic man I can't abide the choices Fiona took in this game. I'm not saying she didn't have her reasons but she forced a confrontation which would likely not end well for the mages. I'm not a fan of fighting losing battles on "principle" which is what Anders and Fiona seem like they're doing.
The mages should rally under Morrigan's banner... just saying
Leliana
Ah, yes. She must be talking about Leliana, who she describes (in that video, in fact) as "a well-meaning fool."
Mmm, yes. I see your point. Vivienne - despite all her ambition and confidence, despite being the kind of woman who "knows what she wants" - would clearly put not one but two people ahead of herself for the seat of the Divine. Including one who is a "well-meaning fool" who will do "irreparable harm." This logic makes more sense than considering that a woman who supposedly made her name at the Orlesian court might be being subtle and less than forthright with you, because you guys are friends, and she would never do you like that.
Ah, yes. She must be talking about Leliana, who she describes (in that video, in fact) as "a well-meaning fool."
So the Divine must be intelligent also. Did she say this?
Guest_Roly Voly_*
Racist misogynistic and wrong. Just thought I'd say how this thread will look in an hour so you can prep.
Naw man, it's none of those things. She's just so damned... Orleasian. I totally get where the OP is coming from. Even when she agrees with you, it's with a sneer down her nose at you like you're some smelly Dog Lord from across the Frostbacks.
So the Divine must be intelligent also. Did she say this?
Because if she didn’t say this and Leliana matches all the qualities she listed a Divine would need and yet believes Leliana would do irreparable harm, then wouldn’t this imply she believes a Divine must have MORE than the characteristics she listed.
And yet you’re basing your inference that she was putting herself forward SOLELY on this list, which has now been discredited.
Considering the above point, MAYBE she truly does believe Cassandra is the best for the job due to reasons OTHER than she listed, and that she would truly make a great leader if only she had more charm.
I don't get why people harping on him. He doesn't hate Viv because she's a bad character, he hates her because she's a great character and can evoke emotions in him.
I am personally a fan of Viv. She's a practical person. She sees the world not as an idealistic person but as someone who has to do with what they have and takes whatever opportunities given to them.
Naw man, it's none of those things. She's just so damned... Orleasian. I totally get where the OP is coming from. Even when she agrees with you, it's with a sneer down her nose at you like you're some smelly Dog Lord from across the Frostbacks.
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