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I utterly despise Vivienne. With a passion.


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#126
Lucrece

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As a pragmatic man I can't abide the choices Fiona took in this game. I'm not saying she didn't have her reasons but she forced a confrontation which would likely not end well for the mages. I'm not a fan of fighting losing battles on "principle" which is what Anders and Fiona seem like they're doing. 

 

The mages should rally under Morrigan's banner... just saying 

 

 

Well, you basically stood on the precipice of extermination by Templars and loyalist mages as Vivienne explained the loyalists joined Templars in fighting rebel mages.

 

The rebels had few options and Radcliffe was not going to hold the anti-rebel onslaught.

 

Here comes a powerful Tevinter magister offering the Roman style conscription in exchange for survival. That option in a land where mages are not treated as prisoners suddenly becomes worth considering.

 

Remember all we hear from tevinter is Chantry propaganda. There are men like Dorian and Alexius's son. Fiona could have initially mistaked Alexius for one of those.

 

In the epilogue it even shows that when Leliana disbands the circle, the mages simply form a successful college that enjoys growing respect and acceptance throughout all of Thedas. And Fiona's at the head of it.

 

Meanwhile Vivienne does nothing but condescend to people. My issue with her character is how opinionated she is, how sure she seems to be of her beliefs. I can't even stand people like that in real life, who are so sure they know everything about how the world works when they're only experiencing such a tiny portion of what the world actually is.

 

And more importantly, Vivienne is a classist. She looks down on commoners, insists to get you to a proper tailor to give the appearance of pedigree, and her main methods of disparaging people like Blackwall is by viciously attacking their simple mannerisms.  She may be a fun lady with an interesting mouth, but she's not a good person and I bet most people who love snobby sardonic characters on TV and books would really not enjoy those characters as much if it was them who had to deal with said characters.


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#127
keyip

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Well, you basically stood on the precipice of extermination by Templars and loyalist mages as Vivienne explained the loyalists joined Templars in fighting rebel mages.

 

 

Maybe she shouldn't have STARTED the divisive war yet. As I understand it, she struggled to have majority support amongst her mages let alone anyone else, and she pulled the trigger anyway. She wasn't at a stage where she could launch such an assault.



#128
Ieldra

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Spoken for  my first Inquisitor:

 

Vivienne and I, we understand each other. That's not to say we like each other - it would be more appropriate to say that we dance carefully around each other - but there is a measure of respect. She has different views on mages than I do, but she has good arguments for them, which is why I don't dislike her for having them, even though I still disagree and think my arguments are better. She may use the Inquisition as a stepping stone to power while helping to save the world, but well, so do I, I don't have a problem with it unless we get in each others' way. There is no reason why saving the world and doing well for the people we are responsible for should exclude ascending to power. She is condescending, which is grating, but after helping her with the concoction for Duke Bastien, I keep thinking that she does that on purpose to get under people's skin, making them careless. 

 

All in all, while she's hard to tolerate in several different ways, she's way too interesting to subsume her under "I dislike her". Also, I can't stand Sera, which means points for Vivienne. "Can you shut it off?" Yes, Sera, she probably can, but she won't do it for you, and that I understand.


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#129
mikeymoonshine

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The strongest woman in the game is Fiona. There's a character who has been through hell and back-- literally. A minority faced with lethal discrimination who is villified for making a choice that was never a choice at all, but did so with grace and reason amidst systematic bloodshed. Fiona is the person I imagined my Warden from DA:O would be if ever I met them again.

 

Fiona has been dealt the hardest hand in Thedas. The scene where Alistair banishes her is probably the most poignant and agonizing of them all. And for a former Gray Warden who somehow lost the darkspawn taint to have to watch her son face the same destiny she was spared from by cruel chance?

 

That is a strong female character. Vivienne's only accomplishment is being an insufferable aristocrat who achieved minor political success. Get back to me when she's had a tenth of the tragedy Fiona has endured.

 

I don't know what this new thing is with viewing people who have been through a lot as strong even if they prove themselves to be weak. Fiona was not in any way a strong character in Inquisition. 



#130
scribeman

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As a pragmatic man I can't abide the choices Fiona took in this game. I'm not saying she didn't have her reasons but she forced a confrontation which would likely not end well for the mages. I'm not a fan of fighting losing battles on "principle" which is what Anders and Fiona seem like they're doing. 

 

The mages should rally under Morrigan's banner... just saying 

 

If you were truly pragmatic, you would see that the choices Fiona had were: "Await inevitable death by genocide" or "Await inevitable death as cannon fodder".

 

People like Anders and Fiona were not fighting a losing battle; both were very much aware of what the future held. Anders is at fault for how things turned out, but look at what happened regardless. The Templars became hopelessly corrupted. A pragmatic view would acknowledge the need to remove the Templars' enslavement of the Mages in their ghettos. Corypheus would have had a much easier time with his plans had Fiona not acted.

 

She couldn't have known that (or maybe she did?) but even so. She sought to save as many of her people as possible while being all too aware of the sound of the ovens being fired up.

 

How would Vivienne have handled this? She would have worked the situation to her advantage such that she was the center of power, and in doing so, unwittingtly ensured the continued enslavement of the mages primed Corypheus' invasion.


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#131
scribeman

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I don't know what this new thing is with viewing people who have been through a lot as strong even if they prove themselves to be weak. Fiona was not in any way a strong character in Inquisition. 

 

You cannot consider yourself as "strong" unless you have been tested. And my god, has Fiona been tested. Yet she never gave up; she adapted to her situation constantly and kept going. 

 

An elf, a Gray Warden, a mage, a successful politician (High Enchanter or whatever it's called), outcast in literally every sense possible... To survive all of that and still get out of bed every day? And to do what is best for others?

"Strong character" does not mean "always right" or "made the perfect decision". It means that she kept going when literally anyone else would have died from any one of the pieces of her life.


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#132
mikeymoonshine

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You cannot consider yourself as "strong" unless you have been tested. And my god, has Fiona been tested. Yet she never gave up; she adapted to her situation constantly and kept going. 

 

An elf, a Gray Warden, a mage, a successful politician (High Enchanter or whatever it's called), outcast in literally every sense possible... To survive all of that and still get out of bed every day? And to do what is best for others?

"Strong character" does not mean "always right" or "made the perfect decision". It means that she kept going when literally anyone else would have died from any one of the pieces of her life.

 

Fiona has been tested and she failed, she was strong in the past but she isn't now. 

 

She attacks the Inquisition with Corypheus if you side with the Templars, how is that best for others? It certainly doesn't help the mages and it wouldn't have even if Cory had won as you get to see in the game. 

 

I'm not saying there is no strength to her character at all, I am saying it is rediculous to claim she is the strongest female character in the game. Your whole argument for her being strong and Vivienne being weak was based on some silly double standard and a bunch of BS about fear. Both of them made choices out of fear, Vivienne chose to fight, Fiona chose to sell herself into slavery. 


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#133
Bayonet Hipshot

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I am not a fan of Vivienne either.

 

She is a woman who just projects authority and demands respect out of her insecurities and fears....

 

Just take her out with Cole and watch their banter. Cole can get into the minds of almost every character and you can practically see how Vivienne squirms with hatred and fear. You can see how she becomes into who she is because of this.

 

To me, she is pretentious and condescending, out of fear and out of her aristocratic lifestyle. Her power hungry nature comes from the fact she is so afraid of magic, afraid of freedom and afraid of forces that she cannot control. Emphasize on "she cannot control". She is a control freak, as you can see if she becomes Divine.

 

My Elven Mage Inquisitor kept our relationship very formal, did her side quests and did not make her a Divine.

 

I can see why she would be liked by Pro-Templar people. I am Pro-Mage, Pro-Circle and Anti-Chantry. I do not want interference of Templars and the Chantry in magic which meant Vivienne should never become Divine and the College of Enchanters should be born. 

 

Vivienne is a power hungry politician. You do not like her. You just work with her.

 

In conclusion, yes, I do not like Vivienne, in the same way in real life I do not like any politicians. One does not simply like politicians. I do not hate her though. I see my Inquisitor's relationship and hers to be strictly professional. 



#134
Alrik1173

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I wish that I could get her nude and romance her, her boobs are boobylicious, I wanna suck em'!



#135
Jackums

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Please, Vivienne was blatantly suggesting herself for the position of Divine in the conversation she had with the inquisitor.

 

That said, I find her character admirable, despite her willful ignorance to, if not lack of sympathy for, the issues of circle mages.



#136
joejoe099

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I utterly loath iron bull for the fact that he only makes dick and violence jokes non stop, in every conversation. Add to that the whole Qun retcon debate going on in another thread and who him actually being transferred in the first place under the circumstances that he describes changes radically what has been established. Finally, how he always eats my health potions no matter what. Yes, I know he's a reaver and that's their thing, but considering they took out manual tactics you'd think they'd compensate for this.

 

But beside that, you don't see me making a thread of my hate for him.



#137
Han Shot First

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Please, Vivienne was blatantly suggesting herself for the position of Divine in the conversation she had with the inquisitor.

 

That said, I find her character admirable, despite her willful ignorance to, if not lack of sympathy for, the issues of circle mages.

 

I love that scene for that reason. 

 

She's manipulating the Inquisitor into suggesting her for Divine and making it seem like it was the Inquisitor's idea all along. Brilliant.



#138
Fardreamer

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Her party interactions are one of the reasons I refuse to bring her along. It seems like she's just got to belittle and try and break people down to prop herself up. Her fear is she's losing her place in the world and her carefully garnered status. And she's got people like Sera, a commoner - raised on the streets mostly, who heads an organisation of people belittled by nobles. Blackwall, an admittedly flawed man, who made a terrible decision in his past - and has been atoning ever since. Solas, an elven apostate with no formal traning, yet shows great competency with Magic, and eloquence when he's speaking.

 

She can't really win against Solas, but the things she says to Sera and Blackwall just make me want to turn around and slap her. Coming from someone who doesn't wish violence on anyone, that's some strong writing to influence that response.

 

I don't know about others, but it should come as no surprise that people who have opposite personalities don't get along.  I have a party with Bull, Vivienne, and Sera... It's pretty awesome.  Vivienne and Bull have a unique relationship where he basically respects her like a mother/tamassaran figure.  She teaches him how to dance and has him wrapped around her finger.  Sera, keeps trying to pull a Red Jenny on her, but Vivienne is always one step ahead... maybe Sera will get the last word, haven't gotten far enough yet.

 

Bull and Sera keep discussing crazy tactics they can use in battle, like Sera riding on Bulls shoulders while he charges in and she fires arrows.

 

In my opinion it's the best "bad guy" party.  A evil, selfish mage... a big brute who like smashing things... and a completely insane rogue who kills people she doesn't like enough.



#139
Jaron Oberyn

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I love that scene for that reason. 

 

She's manipulating the Inquisitor into suggesting her for Divine and making it seem like it was the Inquisitor's idea all along. Brilliant.

 

I have to look back at this, but I never got that impression lol. It seemed she wanted Cassandra, I just chose Viv because I was doing research for the thread on how to get specific divines. If she was trying to be manipulative, that'll be interesting to see next time around. 

 

 


I wish that I could get her nude and romance her, her boobs are boobylicious, I wanna suck em'!

Oh look, school's out. 


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#140
Big I

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Vivienne has one redeeming feature; her war table missions which add influence to the Inquisition. If it weren't for those (and her personal quest which also adds influence) it'd be GTFO.

 

What cracks me up is that her greatest fear, based on the Fade, is irrelevance. Welp, mission accomplished here, good luck being relevant with

 

Spoiler

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#141
TheLittleBird

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Morning everyone. I see this thread is still thriving.

Maybe I should give my actual opinion on Vivienne. After all, she's a great character deserving of some attention here on the forums.

 

Vivienne is a flawed character. Oh, definitely. Much like Sera, she seems to be narrow-minded in her opinions and beliefs. Take what she thinks of Cole, for example. The Circle taught her that all spirits, and especially demons, can and will be dangerous. And it's a certainly viable stance to think that way of our beloved Cole. I mean, she's been raised on Circle education and teachings. There's a very large benefit to be drawn from that, on both an educational level and when it pertains to one's abilities, but, as Solas so cleverly points out, it also "creates boundaries, limits where none need exist." Granted, he was talking about her magical prowess here, but something like that will, unavoidably, also extend to one's stance on magic, demons and the Fade. But even without that there would be nothing wrong with how Vivienne thinks of it all, considering the world of Thedas is filled with proof to support those beliefs. And hey, if I were in her position I'd be mad at Cole too upon finding out what he did at the White Spire, and what effect this had on the tensions between mages and templars. But that's a discussion for another time.

 

Much like with the other companions, Cole's banter with Vivienne provides a lot of insight into her character. It even tends to imply that a part of this 'Iron Lady' cares more than she'd like to admit, and this seems to extend to Cole himself, in that Vivienne is worried about him. Of course, she denies it. In a way, Vivienne is much like Sera. Both hide behind their words, quite possibly out of fear that the world might change too much for them if they don't. 

Related to that seems to be Vivienne's (as said before, completely understandable) fear of demons. One might conclude that Vivienne rose to power not only to be in power, but also avoid the life of the Circle. Where one is among books, Templar swords and the whispers of those inhabiting the Fade, invading one's mind every single night. Vivienne prefers to be faced with the danger of people, characters and personalities that can be influenced and crushed with words. She loves playing the Game, and yes, seems to be very good at it. But doesn't it speak in favour of her then that she decides to give all of that up to some degree and join the Inquisition? She moves to Skyhold, where the winters are long and harsh, where the food is of inferior quality to what she was used to in Val Royeaux, and where fashion is a word mostly unknown (as proven by what the Inquisitor wears when running around the castle). 

 

She makes it very clear that she joins the Inquisition largely for personal gain, sure. But to come out of her comfort zone to do so, that is something I respect and yes, even admire about her. She's willing to fight demons to be a part of this adventure, and does a damn fine job at it. Of course, one might argue that she does this all this to rise to the throneroom of Thedas (e.g. sit on the Sunburst Throne), but I didn't make her Divine in my canon, and she seems perfectly fine with the result. Albeit that she feels Cassandra still needs some work to truly become great. But she does seem to respect the woman to a great degree.
Not Morrigan, though. She hates Morri with a passion, and her gaining an advisory position at Empress Celene's side might be one of the reasons that Madame de Fer decides it's time to join the Inquisition. I certainly wouldn't be surprised. 

 

As for how Vivienne feels about the Circles and the Mage/Templar war: she seems to have perfectly reasonable thoughts on the matter. And I very much agree with her views (even though I wouldn't make her Divine). The Circle-system didn't completely fail, and definitely shouldn't just be cast aside like some people would have it. The system failed because its execution was poorly done, and that is exactly what Vivienne aspires to prevent upon receiving the Sunburst Throne; more freedom for mages, yet the Circle-system remains. One could say that Vivienne doesn't like the world to change too much, or only keeps the Circles for her own personal gain, but I wouldn't say there isn't a part of her that cares about the mages' plight. She isn't inhuman, you know.

 

And if all of the above sounds like BS to you, there's the fact that Vivienne acts like a Tamassran around Iron Bull, making for some great and hilarious banter. Which is a major reason alone to bring her along in your travels.

 

:)


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#142
Kantr

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If I knew her in real life I wouldnt like her, but she's a well written very intelligent character with strong views and an unashamed social climber.

 

My Inquisitor respects her but doesnt agree with her views on Mages



#143
Myrmedus

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Hate her as well. Obnoxious, arrogant, cold and selfish. If I could I would destroy her!


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#144
WildOrchid

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I don't know about others, but it should come as no surprise that people who have opposite personalities don't get along.  I have a party with Bull, Vivienne, and Sera... It's pretty awesome.  Vivienne and Bull have a unique relationship where he basically respects her like a mother/tamassaran figure.  She teaches him how to dance and has him wrapped around her finger.  Sera, keeps trying to pull a Red Jenny on her, but Vivienne is always one step ahead... maybe Sera will get the last word, haven't gotten far enough yet.

 

Bull and Sera keep discussing crazy tactics they can use in battle, like Sera riding on Bulls shoulders while he charges in and she fires arrows.

 

In my opinion it's the best "bad guy" party.  A evil, selfish mage... a big brute who like smashing things... and a completely insane rogue who kills people she doesn't like enough.

 

A romanced Sera gets the last word in most times. And.... trust me, you don't want to argue with her when it comes to Inquisitor. :D

 

That being said, Sera doesn't have to have the last word... all she wants to do is to tease Viv, which, that's Sera's doing. She likes teasing her companions. From their banters, you don't know if Sera actually hates Viv or likes her. Probably both.

 

 

 

I personally luv Vivienne, even if we have different opinions sometimes, she and my mage qunari clashed a lot which was amusing to say the least.

 

 

And I gotta say, LittleBird.... damn. Just. Damn. Your post wins the thread.


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#145
ZoliCs

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I would make her live in Skyhold's dungeon not a fancy Palace, ****** with dukes, and then ask her if she still wants the Circles back...



#146
Teddie Sage

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Racist misogynistic and wrong. Just thought I'd say how this thread will look in an hour so you can prep.

There's nothing racist about the first post. He just hates a virtual character. Get over yourself.



#147
ZoliCs

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There's nothing racist about the first post. He just hates a virtual character. Get over yourself.

How about you read the whole post not just the first sentence and then jump to conclusions?



#148
TheLittleBird

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I would make her live in Skyhold's dungeon not a fancy Palace, ****** with dukes, and then ask her if she still wants the Circles back...

 

Except for the fact that Vivienne knows what it's like to live in a Circle, and that's not to even mention that Circle mages live in quite the luxury, when compared to the majority of people in Thedas.



#149
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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I thought she was great. It's interesting that Bioware thought her kind of views valid enough to make a companion like that. Sometimes I feel like I'm getting pounded in the head with the typical Pro-mage freedom perspective (or conversely, the rigid Pro-Templar argument) so she was a breath of fresh air. She makes it clear that the situation is more complicated than that. And ultimately, I just like her because her main message is only about exercising caution. To take small steps, and tread carefully when it comes to all of this.



#150
ZoliCs

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Except for the fact that Vivienne knows what it's like to live in a Circle, and that's not to even mention that Circle mages live in quite the luxury, when compared to the majority of people in Thedas.

Except that she right out says she doesn't know...