162 réponses à ce sujet

[Jaron Oberyn]

Under the original Arishok, yes because he was a badass. Under Sten? No.

[Mihura]

No thanks but also no thanks for all the others philosophies and forms of government in Thedas. 

[BloodyTalon]

Given what type of things the Qun draws on from irl would have to see more of the society to make a real judgement.

There have been various societies like the Qun irl some good some bad even with lack of personal freedoms, but how they treat mages is one major draw back of that society.

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

wow so muts sidation on this thread. well better go tattle and have you all brainwashed..uhh reeducated.

[berrieh]

Hate it? No.

 

Fear it? Hell yes. 

 

I think the Qun has good and bad points, but any society that cuts your tongue out and leashes you for being a mage has some serious problems. Not that all of the Thedas societies don't have problems (and the Qun probably has more good points than Orlais or Tevinter, for instance), but cutting tongues out routinely is a pretty big dealbreaker. I can even deal with gamek. But what is done to mages in Par Vollen out seems the least humane thing in Thedas - death or tranquility would both be better by my reckoning. 

 

If I was not born a mage, though (and most likely are not since they selectively breed and don't wish to have mages), I could probably live very happily under the Qun. There are other problems, but they are all relatively minor to what day-to-day life would be like. 

[Navasha]

The Qun pretty much represents everything I loathe in real life.    Without individualism there really is no life.   The Qunari aren't even people, they are just mindless robots.   Slaves to their society. 

 

So yes... I hate the Qun as an institution.    I do, however, love it as an enemy.   Its the perfect foil to my typical freedom-loving hero type.

[skotie]

To be honest the Qun versus the Orliasian empire, reminds me a lot of our very own arguments. Of socialism versus democracy. 

 

When you talk to Iron Bull

 

How do people live

 

No different from you they go to work, etc.

 

But they aren't really free

 

Are they really free here? 

 

I mean they don't have free will

 

How much do people really have free will here

 

I'm paraphrasing, but that's the jist of it.

I kind of like how Bull presents the Qun but I do disagree with it. Most other societies have rules you must follow but I don't think any of them are really as strict as the Qun, though the dwarves caste system is worse, still dwarves can escape that by just going to the surface, you don't just leave the Qun.

 

The one thing Bull and Sten failed to understand is even if your not really born with many skills among most human or elvan cultures your still not locked into one role, with no say in what that will be. I don't think that is their fault though, they were raised with the Qun, it's natural to expect them to have that view of the world.

 

The main reason for me I will never except the Qun is you do not have freedom under it. People of all classes in most other places can choose from different types of work to make a living, religion is determined for you still, but that's because there is still no separation of religion and government.

[DarthSliver]

Well ... they do not have families, they do not give their children names, hold the "function" of a person higher than his/her personality? They brainwash people if they criticize something, or just even doubt aka think for themselves. And much more...

 

In fact one of my favorite parts in DA2 is to first pi$$ off the Artischock, and then kill him in the end. What a pleasure. Isabelle, go get some of their other "holy" books as well, I'll help you gladly. Also would be wonderful if they invaded the next game and we'd be able to side with "uuhhh evil" Tevinter and crush them. Surely this would be considered the "uuhhh evil" choice by Bioware...but not in my book!

 

EXALTED MARCH TO PAR VOLLEN! Burn the heretics. Kill the horned ones. Purge the unbelievers! The Maker and Andraste, and her Mabari will greatly approve!

 

Though only after Iron Bull's personal story I felt a bit of pity for them horned ones ... after I saw their poorly animated Dreadnought that ... was not very impressive. Maybe the infamous Qun is a lot less fearsome as they would like to be ...

 

 

I will have to side with the Qun, Order will be brought to Thedas whether you like it or not.  So I don't hate the Qun I think its a great place, no mages to screw things up like they usually do by being weak and succumbing to Demon possession. Half the mages in DA become possessed because they overthink things and fear its the best choice to make lol. 

 

Thedas is a bloody mess and the Qun can fix that, when Thedas finally rebels the Qun the society that the Qun brought will hopefully rub off on them and bring some good. But for good things to happen a force of reckoning needs to hit first. But like I said I like the Qun, I will side with the Qun. Playing as a Qunari is awesome but I will admit customization option seems limited, thought the horns would be a separate custom option lol. 

[Korhiann]

I am against any form of caste system, so yes I do not like the Qun which takes it to an extreme... Along with its inspiration from silly utopian ideas from the real world: confucianism, communism, Plato's Republic etc.

It obviously works in a fantasy setting... For those that don't value personal freedoms. 

[Ieldra]

Take anything anathema to my personal philosophy, and you'll likely find it in the Qun.

 

So do I hate it? Yeah, I do. With a passion. I don't like the Chantry but reforming it is quite enough for me. Its faith is nothing I have to fear, even as a mage if Leliana becomes Divine. The Qun I want to eradicate from the face of Thedas.

[berrieh]

The one thing Bull and Sten failed to understand is even if your not really born with many skills among most human or elvan cultures your still not locked into one role, with no say in what that will be. I don't think that is their fault though, they were raised with the Qun, it's natural to expect them to have that view of the world.

 

They don't really fail to understand that. Especially Sten. He comments on it a lot, and how it's a problem. 

 

They fail to understand why it's good to not have a role. If your role is changeable, you have no role. You have no Order. You have unhappiness, scheming, dissatisfaction at constantly wanting to be other than what you are. 

 

I understand why many people would find it troubling to be put into a singular role and not allowed "choice." I put "choice" in quotations because if they do what they say they do and what they did for Bull and put you in a role you are suited for, then you are given a choice in a different way, a more essential way than most people have. You can be anything under the Qun, as long as it suits who you are. It's just you can only be that one thing. (There are no bullshit classes, no inherited wealth, you are placed based on the merits of your being, and everyone is equally important in their own way.) You don't get to choose it yourself, in the way we think of choosing - it chooses you - but it is theoretically based on what you enjoy as well as what you're good at.

 

But I don't think it's Sten or IB failing to understand. They get it; they just don't find that people make the right choices for themselves, the choices that make them both satisfied and a benefit to society, and don't see why making that kind of choice is a benefit. To Sten, at least, it is a detriment, a problem in other societies. IB seems to better understand other societies and accept it, but he sees it's flaws and he also realizes that this illusion of choice only exists for a select few in Thedas anyway. (I would argue it's similar in our world - that the idea that all children have the same choices, regardless of their birth, is simply bullshit. It's better than Orlais certainly, but how much money you're born with still matters and factors into what choices you will have.) 

 

There's a Solas/Iron Bull banter that is especially fascinating to this:

 

• Solas: What they say and do, yes. Not what they think.
• Iron Bull: What you think is what you say and do.
• Solas: No. Even the lowliest peasant may find freedom in the safety of her thoughts. You take even that.

Granted, this doesn't exactly come down to choice, but it comes down to a view of it. The peasants in Orlais can't "decide" to be something else, really (they're too poor to have that luxury) but they can wish it freely in many ways. They can express their thwarted desire more. Some people see that as freedom. I don't know if I do. If it can never be achieved for the majority, are they really free to do anything? 

Anyway, I think my feelings on this come down to agreeing with Iron Bull on this one. What you think is what you say and do; I do not separate the two, or at least I think it is insanity to think one way but do another. I think having a separation between what you think and what you do sounds like the worst kind of misery. 

[Qun00]

One second I'm a Qun, then suddenly the qun is me. The idea behind it is not bad, just different. Everyone does what they suppose to. Everyone helps and supports each other and such. I wouldn't be in one, but at least, I can see why it's appealing to others such as elves who find equality within the Qun that they can't find in the human society.

It's not that simple.

Everyone in their society is regarded as an expendable, replaceable tool.

[Lady Mutare]

 I would choose to live in Free Marches if I had a choice in that, but I would choose to follow the Qun over Orlesian or Tevinter in every scenario. Until Alistair and my Warden Commander have a child, the Ferelden throne will up for grabs and they will end up in civil war, so ...not a place to be living right now.  Antiva...assassins..while ones like Zevran my be fun to bounce in a bed with, I wouldn't want to live there.

[Joseph Warrick]

Hate it. Though the comparison with socialism Americans are making in the thread is funny to me.

Well they tried to make the Qun more likeable in DA:I by making it accepting of transgender people and now having a laid back attitude about sex as well as removing gender restrictions on roles (as long as you call yourself that role's typical gender...wut?). They still don't let you choose how you want to live your life though and I assume they still sew shut the eyes and mouths of mages and keep them chained and collared at all times as well as lobotomizing people who don't follow the status quo. All things considered, the Qun is still one of the crappiest cultures in Thedas (if not the crappiest). My Qunari Inquisitor was a devout Andrastian  his reaction to Josephine's asking if he followed/would follow the Qun:

 
That's not a change, the qun in DAO was also all about gender roles as well. Had the warden told Sten she was a man, Sten would have been ok. Men fight, women don't. If you fight, you're a man. If you say you're a man and you fight, the system is upheld and everything's fine. The qun has a problem with non-conformity, not with gender roles.

[KainD]

I personally would gladly kill on sight every single Qunari I come across, if such an option would be provided. 

[Qunquistador]

I personally would gladly kill on sight every single Qunari I come across, if such an option would be provided. 

Even the defenseless and children? That sounds incredibly savage. 

[Xiomara]

Parts of it are alright. I mean they accept everyone and no one is considered superior. I'd rather live under the Qun (except as a mage) than be a casteless dwarf for example. I simply cannot deal with their treatment of mages and the fact that they have literal thought police. What the Ben-Hassrath do is torture and enslave people, they can dress it up how they want but it's still torture and slavery.

[Hurbster]

My greatest fear is the loss of self and individuality, so yes I do hate and fear the Qun. I'm pretty sure it's partly based on 1984.

[SwobyJ]

I hate the Qun.

[Nefla]

Hate it. Though the comparison with socialism Americans are making in the thread is funny to me.

 
That's not a change, the qun in DAO was also all about gender roles as well. Had the warden told Sten she was a man, Sten would have been ok. Men fight, women don't. If you fight, you're a man. If you say you're a man and you fight, the system is upheld and everything's fine. The qun has a problem with non-conformity, not with gender roles.

That makes no logical sense though, there would be absolutely no purpose for such a "system" (and I didn't see any of that in Sten's confusion anyway). Societies where "women absolutely do not fight" stem from the basic idea of continuation of your species. One man can impregnate a large number of women whereas women can only have 1 baby at a time in most cases so in the case of reproduction: women are more precious than men and should be kept out of harm's way (which definitely includes combat). If you're a woman but say you're a man well...too bad. You still have a uterus and in a society where women must be preserved and protected for population reasons your preferences don't matter, only your reproductive role. If the Qunari aren't preserving women because of their reproductive value, then their imposed gender roles don't make any sense.

[MisterJB]

I'd side with Tevinter over them, if I had to.

Me! Making common cause with a nation ruled by mages!

[Dahae]

The Qun is awful. I wish I could lead the Inquisition on a holy war against it

[DeusGoddess5010]

I actually like the Qun and like the early poster said just add a few tweaks and it would be heaven on earth. It also reminds me a tiny bit of communism which I admire. I really like how fair and accepting they are and will literally not waste anything since everything has a place. Compared to all the religious and social structures in Thedas I would convert to the Qun.

[ZerebusPrime]

The Qun has no cookies.

[Joseph Warrick]

That makes no logical sense though, there would be absolutely no purpose for such a "system" (and I didn't see any of that in Sten's confusion anyway). Societies where "women absolutely do not fight" stem from the basic idea of continuation of your species. One man can impregnate a large number of women whereas women can only have 1 baby at a time in most cases so in the case of reproduction: women are more precious than men and should be kept out of harm's way (which definitely includes combat). If you're a woman but say you're a man well...too bad. You still have a uterus and in a society where women must be preserved and protected for population reasons your preferences don't matter, only your reproductive role. If the Qunari aren't preserving women because of their reproductive value, then their imposed gender roles don't make any sense.

 

But they're always saying the qun wants each individual to reach their potential. That you do what you're good at. Like when Sten says some elves are in charge because they belong in charge. And considering one of their three positions of power (can't remember which) is reserved for females, I think it's clear they don't believe broodmare is the optimal path for every female.

 

They're just stuck with the idea that women aren't good at fighting and can't seem to evolve past it.