If a kid likes hitting things (which Bull says is pretty much the reason he was chosen for his job), how does that automatically mean he'd be a good soldier? He could just be an a**hole.
LMAO as a kindergarten teacher I LOVE this line. But I hate the Qun.
Easily the most interesting facet of the Thedosian lore.
The Qun is the kind of philosophy that is only good for people who can't stand by themselves. Which explains why it's mainly elf slaves who convert to the Qun because that's their only remotely viable option.
As someone who values a lot individual freedom I can only hate such philosophies. Such philosophy deprive people of what separates them from machines : the ability to have opinion and choice. The Qun doesn't just considers itself as the best philosophy ever, it totally forbids you to think of anything different. There are just too many things that I find unacceptable and/or stupid in it :
- The strict gender roles. If I understood well they are based on the belief that even the worst individual of the right gender is still better than the best individual of the wrong gender. For instance, they believe that any female is a better merchant than every male. Or than any male is a better warrior than every female. And for that I disagree, maybe it is different for Qunari race but for humans, elves and dwarves this belief is clearly not true. And even for the Qunari themselves, a female Qunari warrior Inquisitor is probably a better warrior than most Qunari soldiers.
- No family. Even in real world totalitarian regimes, families still exist. This is really a terrible point, for most people family is central and I don't think it's only due to education. To me if you remove family, life becomes rather pointless for most people.
- Mage treatment. Nothing can defend that. Makes Meredith look like a mage-lover.
- 1984-like thought police. No, just no. How can people not born in such a system even consider that as a good thing ?
Also, concerning the Qun vs Orlais comparison, I think Iron Bull greatly underestimates how not having a family affects your everyday life. I just know too many people whose life changed completely (in most cases, for the better) when they got children, despite nothing changed in they professional life, not to consider this as a major issue of the Qun. Also, the random person could have a completely different job under the Qun be it only due to gender restrictions, which can also lead to non-negligeable changes.
So globally I find the Qun to be terrible. Too many negative points. The only other systems in Thedas that I find can compete with it in the "Who is the worst" competition are the Darkspawn and the Tevinter.
The Qun is one of those things that couldn't possibly survive far from its home of origin. It relies largely on chemically-induced mind control and the people who gravitate toward it generally had considerably sh*tty lives prior, like Bull's friend Gat.
But they're always saying the qun wants each individual to reach their potential. That you do what you're good at. Like when Sten says some elves are in charge because they belong in charge. And considering one of their three positions of power (can't remember which) is reserved for females, I think it's clear they don't believe broodmare is the optimal path for every female.
They're just stuck with the idea that women aren't good at fighting and can't seem to evolve past it.
Again, makes no sense, especially since they can just say "hey guys I'm a man now" without even changing anything about themselves and the Qun is just like "oh ok, as long as you don't have the title of woman you can do whatever job you like!" They obviously know there are women who fight or they wouldn't make exceptions.
Qunari woman: "Hey I'm good at fighting and want to be a soldier"
Qunari society: "No way! Women can't fight!"
Qunari woman: "What if I call myself a man then?"
Qunari society: "Oh in that case, welcome aboard sir!"
Completely illogical. I believe they keep adding and changing bits without really caring about making it fit together with what was previously shown.
Guest_Raga_*
It wasn't so problematic in DAO. It started just after DAII. Demands of the Qun, converted elves and similar things. I hate The Qun even though I like some of Qunari people.
I think of the Qun like this:
As a modern person, obviously, I want to have nothing to do with the Qun. But if I was a peasant in Orlais or an elf in an alienage, I would likely look at the Qun and think "hmm, that doesn't seem so bad."
I feel like I need more direct-expereince with the Qun to have an informed opinion / pass judgment.
@Nefla
I agree it's illogical. But that's the qun for you.
You know, when a boy starts to identify as a girl, suddenly a bunch of preferences and mannerisms become acceptable (and even expected ofhimher). And I'm talking about our world now. We are quite illogical ourselves.
I just think the writers should have planned their cultural structure early on instead of seeming to add things as they go (which contradict each other) in an illogical mish-mash >_<
I hate just about anything that forces everyone to be slaves.
@Nefla
They have beliefs we consider absurd. So do tevinter, the chantry, the dalish... Cultures are like that. The point initially was that transgender ideas are compatible with the qun because it's all about roles. It wasn't my intention to suggest the qun makes sense.
Those other cultures make sense from a different point of view though, the Qun is just illogical and feels slapped together 
Honestly these days, I feel the only difference between the Qun and the rest of Thedas, is that outside the Qun non magical humans have more wiggle room to do what they want compared to everyone else. The richer, the more freedoms they have. But even then, the rich folk arrange marriages to create a solid noble blood line like the tamassran arrange everyone's sex partners.
Not as long as it remains an option to the disenfranchised. Some people seek purpose in the world, and the qun gives them that purpose. I feel like it is the most welcoming of the societies we know of on thedas.
The whole militaristic indoctrination could be toned down though. I'm not the biggest fan of forcing people to join your religion, whatever it is.
Well they tried to make the Qun more likeable in DA:I by making it accepting of transgender people and now having a laid back attitude about sex as well as removing gender restrictions on roles (as long as you call yourself that role's typical gender...wut?). They still don't let you choose how you want to live your life though and I assume they still sew shut the eyes and mouths of mages and keep them chained and collared at all times as well as lobotomizing people who don't follow the status quo. All things considered, the Qun is still one of the crappiest cultures in Thedas (if not the crappiest). My Qunari Inquisitor was a devout Andrastian
his reaction to Josephine's asking if he followed/would follow the Qun:
Yeah, they definitely tweaked if not completely retconned a few things about the Qun in this game to make it seem a bit more likable.
The only downsides of the Qun is that it demands all to be a part of it, demands the death of anyone resisting and chains mages, although the last one may be considered good or bad. The Qun would've been... convincing if the society simply exiles than hunting the deserters and forcing it's way of life on the unwilling. Imagine if all the Qunari considered it only a privilege to live under it. But for some it's not a privilege but a curse or bad luck to be born there.
I like the Qun's philosophies. Providing a place for everyone without any class system. It also carries a sub-section of meritocracy. Like you can be the Arishok even if your role is to be a soldier. As an Arishok, you're not being removed from your role, just that more is added to it. There is also the fact that the higher your position is in the Qun, the greater the demands are for you to satisfy. The soldiers are at your service sure, but the moment you defy the Qun, they are longer under you.
People typically hate the Qun because it denies individual freedom. They call it slavery, I find that weird. You are given a role and treated just as well as anyone else. You are protected, fed, given clothing and shelter. All that is asked in return is for you to do your job. You are at no one's mercy. It's no different than obeying the rules of the country you live in. Sure, you can choose which ever job you wish to do outside the Qun but that is a risk you take. Due to that you can be cheated, exploited, removed as a nuisance etc. Of course you could also prosper on your own but you'd still see beggars and the homeless, the hungry and the unattended.
The Qun is not perfect but that's not the problem. It has the glaring flaws like the use of Qamek, hunting Tal-Vashoth and forcefully converting others. Maybe that is why people can't take it seriously enough or just spit at it. Gaider should've made it more convincing. While I respect how the Qunari strive for the greater good of their people, I wish they didn't believe that everyone had to be a part of it whether they like it or not. Is it not enough for you to strive with as many as you have?
In any case, it's a nice idea. Humans could learn something from that. Too bad it wasn't implemented well enough and resulted in the Qunari being painted almost as slavers.
Have you read the Codex entries about the reeducators? And if you have a mind that withstands their methods, they give you a poison which turns you in to a vegetable.
There's also some Qunari who are basically sex slaves to service the entire race. There's no love, no passion.
Even Bull says that if the Qun ever conquered the south, most of the people we know and love would be destroyed. By either the reeducators poison or in the fighting itself.
I see the Qun kinda like the genophage was in Mass Effect. It's needed to control the most savage race in Thedas, but it's also evil.
Verrrry bad comparison. The Krogan weren't by any means "savage", just a formidable threat due to their rapid expansion. Neither are the Qunari savage, and the Qun is a product of the teachings of Koslun, not foreign powers.
The Qun is easily the most interestingly different culture of Thedas, and the qunari as a race the most interestingly different race. I look forward to exploring both more.
Having said that, I hate it. In the eternal conflict between individualism and collectivism, I am firmly on the side of the former, and thus the Qun embodies a few things I find wholly inacceptable, even if I discount Qamek and the trreatment of mages. Its expansionism would be bad even if it had a more tolerable ideology, but as it is I see it as The Enemy. I don't want to accommodate it, I don't want to make peace with it unless it removes the idea of expansion not only from its practice, but from its dogma. I want it contained, and I only don't want it destroyed because there are people who want to live under it, and if they want that, they should be able to do it, just as I reserve the absolute right to live outside of it.
Every culture on Thedas has its evils, but I can live with any other culture's evils much more easily than with the Qun's. That includes Tevinter.
@TurretSyndrome:
Indeed, I'd find the Qun easier to accommodate if they weren't so expansionist. The thing I find wholly inacceptable is the forcible inclusion into a community not of my choice.
Unless it doesn't force reeducation, The Qun is good enough.
Like it or not they should leave the qun as before, is a part of the lore, why now it seems that they want to change the qun for the audience of the 21st century?
What I like about Bioware is that when they do create races, none of them are inherently good or evil. Neither are the belief systems. Given that the Qun is both a tremendous social order and a philosophy, I find it fascinating. There are definitely many aspects of it that are problematic, but there are also elements of it that have merit. I try not to allow strong cultural differences color how I respond to the unfamiliar, so I can't say I hate it any more than I hate the Chantry and Andrastian beliefs or Elvhen deities.
Qun order to the extreme. Rest of Thedas chaos with rich bitches like Vivianne and the poor is suffering. And some become as crazy as Sera.
Mary Kirby said that women under the Qun are forced to have children, even if they don't want to.
Enough said, I think.
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