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The Qun: Do You Hate It?


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#101
Chashan

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The only downsides of the Qun is that it demands all to be a part of it, demands the death of anyone resisting and chains mages, although the last one may be considered good or bad. The Qun would've been... convincing if the society simply exiles than hunting the deserters and forcing it's way of life on the unwilling. Imagine if all the Qunari considered it only a privilege to live under it. But for some it's not a privilege but a curse or bad luck to be born there. 

 

I like the Qun's philosophies. Providing a place for everyone without any class system. It also carries a sub-section of meritocracy. Like you can be the Arishok even if your role is to be a soldier. As an Arishok, you're not being removed from your role, just that more is added to it. There is also the fact that the higher your position is in the Qun, the greater the demands are for you to satisfy. The soldiers are at your service sure, but the moment you defy the Qun, they are longer under you.

 

People typically hate the Qun because it denies individual freedom. They call it slavery, I find that weird. You are given a role and treated just as well as anyone else. You are protected, fed, given clothing and shelter. All that is asked in return is for you to do your job. You are at no one's mercy. It's no different than obeying the rules of the country you live in. Sure, you can choose which ever job you wish to do outside the Qun but that is a risk you take. Due to that you can be cheated, exploited, removed as a nuisance etc. Of course you could also prosper on your own but you'd still see beggars and the homeless, the hungry and the unattended. 

 

The Qun is not perfect but that's not the problem. It has the glaring flaws like the use of Qamek, hunting Tal-Vashoth and forcefully converting others. Maybe that is why people can't take it seriously enough or just spit at it. Gaider should've made it more convincing. While I respect how the Qunari strive for the greater good of their people, I wish they didn't believe that everyone had to be a part of it whether they like it or not. Is it not enough for you to strive with as many as you have? 

 

In any case, it's a nice idea. Humans could learn something from that. Too bad it wasn't implemented well enough and resulted in the Qunari being painted almost as slavers.

 

Given that the Chant itself has its very own directive of forcible conversion and showed clearly that it can't well tolerate non-believer populations itself - the purge of the Qunari population in Rivain comes to mind - the Qun hardly is the only one with that attitude.

In a less religious sense, the hegemonic ambitions of Orlais and Tevinter can be considered as well when it comes to imposing the, in their view, superior culture and empire of theirs on other lands.

 

That aside, when it comes to control of magic users, which certainly is a general issue within the setting, the Qunari method is the most thorough one, no doubt about it.

Nonetheless, I find the banter Gatt has with Vivienne quite interesting, where he states that he finds her remark that Circles should be reinstated 'quite responsible', if memory serves. He may not be a figure of authority within the Qun, yet the respect for a mage he expresses with this is noteworthy. I have yet to see how this plays out with a mage PC.

 

Otherwise, I am mostly in agreement.

 

Mary Kirby said that women under the Qun are forced to have children, even if they don't want to.

 

Enough said, I think.

 

As well as men.

 

On the flip-side, the actual upbringing of children is taken care of by the Tamassrans. Whether that itself is good or bad depends on one's views on institutional communal upbringing.


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#102
Qun00

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The only downsides of the Qun is that it demands all to be a part of it, demands the death of anyone resisting and chains mages, although the last one may be considered good or bad. The Qun would've been... convincing if the society simply exiles than hunting the deserters and forcing it's way of life on the unwilling. Imagine if all the Qunari considered it only a privilege to live under it. But for some it's not a privilege but a curse or bad luck to be born there.

I like the Qun's philosophies. Providing a place for everyone without any class system. It also carries a sub-section of meritocracy. Like you can be the Arishok even if your role is to be a soldier. As an Arishok, you're not being removed from your role, just that more is added to it. There is also the fact that the higher your position is in the Qun, the greater the demands are for you to satisfy. The soldiers are at your service sure, but the moment you defy the Qun, they are longer under you.

People typically hate the Qun because it denies individual freedom. They call it slavery, I find that weird. You are given a role and treated just as well as anyone else. You are protected, fed, given clothing and shelter. All that is asked in return is for you to do your job. You are at no one's mercy. It's no different than obeying the rules of the country you live in. Sure, you can choose which ever job you wish to do outside the Qun but that is a risk you take. Due to that you can be cheated, exploited, removed as a nuisance etc. Of course you could also prosper on your own but you'd still see beggars and the homeless, the hungry and the unattended.

The Qun is not perfect but that's not the problem. It has the glaring flaws like the use of Qamek, hunting Tal-Vashoth and forcefully converting others. Maybe that is why people can't take it seriously enough or just spit at it. Gaider should've made it more convincing. While I respect how the Qunari strive for the greater good of their people, I wish they didn't believe that everyone had to be a part of it whether they like it or not. Is it not enough for you to strive with as many as you have?

In any case, it's a nice idea. Humans could learn something from that. Too bad it wasn't implemented well enough and resulted in the Qunari being painted almost as slavers.


Sadly, predetermined roles isn't the only or even the main issue with Qun.

#103
Nefla

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Mary Kirby said that women under the Qun are forced to have children, even if they don't want to.

 

Enough said, I think.

And then have those children ripped away from them after they're born.

 

The Qun is great...unless you're a woman...or a mage...or a parent...or a free thinker... :sick:


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#104
Maverick827

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I wouldn't want to live under the Qun, but I was definitely intrigued by it in DAO and DAI.

I think Iron Bull kind of ruined a lot of the Qun's image. He's just so normal, he makes it less alien, which is what made it so compelling in the first place. I doubt it will happen, but I'd live to find out that Iron Bull was playing the Inquisitor the whole time, and that he reverts to a Sten-like demeanor when at home.

#105
Qun00

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Bull isn't supposed to truly represent the Qun anyway.

#106
LobselVith8

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I'd hate to be a mage under the Qun. They seem a tad bit excessive in their treatment of mages.

 

Unless you're a Rivaini Qunari, given that they have seers.



#107
rigron

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I don´t hate, neither do I love the Qun. I wouldn´t follow it because it goes against a lot of things I believe in, but I understand the reasoning behind it´s structure and why there are people who follow it and believe in it.

 

Let´s see the positive aspect of the Qun: in the Qun everyone can have sex when they want with specifically selected people for their characteristics (sex appeal, sex skills?) for that purpose because you know, the Qun tells you your place in life  (I don´t remember the name, Bull mentions it and explains how they work) xD

 

Cons:

_Mindless slavery

_Fanatism

_"Fix" you if you are a freethinker

_Abscence of individual freedom, have to go with whatever the Qun tells you

_Hates magic, even more than the Chantry

_Cowmen everywhere

_In war with the Tevinter Imperium

 

Pros:

_Free whores trained by the state to make you feel great



#108
MikeJW

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I wouldn't want to live under the Qun, but I was definitely intrigued by it in DAO and DAI.

I think Iron Bull kind of ruined a lot of the Qun's image. He's just so normal, he makes it less alien, which is what made it so compelling in the first place. I doubt it will happen, but I'd live to find out that Iron Bull was playing the Inquisitor the whole time, and that he reverts to a Sten-like demeanor when at home.

 

Agreed. Wouldn't be a fan of Iron Bulls character if he was another race either but for our only Qun companion I think he was a wasted opportunity. I would like one of the few Qunari in the game and our only Qunari party member to, I dunno, act more like a typical Qunari follower of the Qun. Especially one whose part of the secret police. Not like he's undercover since he comes out and tells you about it.

 

But no, I would hate to live under the Qun.



#109
Guest_Fulgrim_*

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Like just about every form of government, it has it's good and bad points. I wouldn't live under it, but I wouldn't look down on those that do. I'd be too busy living my life as I see fit in a log cabin near a river somewhere in the mountains of Ferelden to really care.



#110
safetytowhere

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The writers use The Qun as a foil for the more individualist cultures of most of Thedas.

Just to start out: we can all agree that their treatment of mages is undeniably crueler than life in even the most hardline Circle. There's no moral equivalency between the outright mutilation of a Saarebas and putting mages under Templar supervision. Being made Tranquil seems inhumane, but Tranquil still live respected lives. And being killed for failing your Harrowing is kind of a moot point, since there's only one way to fail: becoming an abomination. So what's left of "you" to kill at that point to kill? Nada.

But true Qunari, like the Arishok and "Sten," definitely give you a lot to think about with regards to everything else. How much freedom have human, dwarven, and elven societies, all sharing a belief in varying degrees of self-determination (you can even abolish the caste system if you put Bhelen on the throne, which has always seemed the more responsible choice, his odiousness aside) really provided? This isn't like the present day, where a little bit of ingenuity can make certain people millionaires overnight (or there's anything resembling a middle class). Thedas is very much feudal - resources and money under the control of unpredictable lords, ladies, and monarchs, who are also judge, jury, and executioner in any legal matter. If you're not a noble or a mage, you're a farmer, a soldier, a Chantry member/Templar, or a merchant - which, like through most of real history, is a profession treated with suspicion and/or scorn (and, in real history, antisemitism).

The Qun can sound pretty damn persuasive in this light. There are precious few real choices for most people in the rest of Thedas. At least under The Qun, your determined path is viewed with respect as an essential contribution to the greater "body".

Plus, they avoid obnoxious political scheming, The Game, unending power struggles among nobles motivated by vanity that leave bodies in their wake. Vanity, in general, is anathema to Qunari culture. Humility sustains them.

Not saying I'd choose the Qun, mind you, just giving it a fair hearing. My Qunari warrior Inquisitor is slowly growing disgusted with the pettiness of the culture his parents fled to (and wonders if they ever felt they'd made a huge mistake), always knowing that if he weren't "The Herald," he'd be just another oxman sellsword, with no respect at all. Orlais, in general, makes him want to vomit.
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#111
Bayonet Hipshot

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I am someone who values freedom, individualism, thinking and self determination very highly. As such the Qun is evil and oppressive. I would not wish it on my worst enemy. 

 

It is a combination of utopian communism and national socialism as well as religious warmongering / expansionism. Ugh. I would not be surprised to hear tons of people in Qunari lands being subjected to Qamek or outright killed because they do not want to do what was ordered of them. 

 

Produce stuff and do things for the good of society ? For what ? To what end ? The rewards that society gets from forcing people to do things in an exact manner are small to begin with and then divide it by the number of people under that society...You will find that the individual gets jack shite...

 

& what exactly will happen when Qunari spread the Qun all over Thedas ? A magical utopia that will come to life due to the power of the words of a long dead philosopher ? Yeah right.

 

Those who favor the Qun are people who cannot think for themselves, who like to be chained, who like to live under oppressive regimes...Essentially sheep without a shepherd...


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#112
Kurt M.

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The Qun reminds me too much of Communism (no families, no individuality, each one with an imposed role "for the good of the society"....). So no, I don't like it a bit.

 

The fact that they also violently proselitize it doesn't make much on it's favor either.


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#113
MoonDrummer

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The qunts?

 

Yeah not too fond of them...



#114
Uccio

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The qun must be purged with fire. No mercy.


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#115
Cadeym

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Yeah I pretty much hate the Qun (not the people). I have yet to find a single redeeming thing about it.


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#116
NamelessDude

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I do not hate them cause...you know they are not real. I am intrigued by them.

 

My characters are a different story. Some of them hate them some dont.


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#117
Orian Tabris

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Yes, I hate the Qun, the Qunari and the qunari (formerly kossith; for clarification). Hate them with a passion!

 

I also hate Red Jenny, the Chantry, the elven pantheon, Orlais, Nevarra, Ferelden, the Tevinter Imperium, Corypheus, Aveline, Grand Enchanter Fiona, Weisshaupt, Sketch, Gorim, Dog (Origins AND 2), the Spirit of Vengeance, Mistress Woolsey, Alistair, Chanter Devons, the Korcari Wilds, Chencellor Roderick, Leandra Hawke, the Seekers of Truth, elfroot, Marjolaine, the Mortalitasi, Your Trainer, Leliana, Fenris, King Calenhad Theirin, Sandal, Sera, the Forgotten Ones, Jansen, Ser Alrick, Ostagar, the Spirit of Valour, Niall, Thomas Howe, the Hero of Ferelden, Prince Trian, Mark Darrah, The Legion of the Dead, Brother Genitivi, Amaranthine, Cadash Thaig, the murder knife, The Last Straw, silverite, Gaxkang the Unbound...

 

...and Merrill.

 

Just to list a few.

 

Oh, and I hate the first spawn point you spawn at, in the Brecilian Forest.

 

Spoiler


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#118
Raiil

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Don't care for it all.

 

 

How the hell are you supposed to satisfactorily figure out what a kid can do? By the age of eight, I wanted to be a ninja-doctor-lawyer-scientist-ballerina-teacher. I was mostly good at... reading and hitting things, and as I'm a woman, apparently hitting things is out of the question. Were they going to stick me in Research and Development? Can't develop Gaatlok formulas, I'm pants at math, but I will read a book until the cows come home!

 

 

The problem with the Qun- well, to me the main problem- is that people reach their potential in different ways. Some stars burn hot and bright and far too fast. Sometimes we change our minds. Occasionally we have hidden talents or interests that are.. different... than what people expect (re: me hitting things). The Qun takes an iron fist approach towards life and that's just boring.


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#119
Uccio

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I think of the Qun like this:

 

As a modern person, obviously, I want to have nothing to do with the Qun.  But if I was a peasant in Orlais or an elf in an alienage, I would likely look at the Qun and think "hmm, that doesn't seem so bad."

 

And yet I would think that the actual minds in the qun would never place orlesian elf into leading position of ariqun. There will be always a lot more menial work for their "role". Because apparently someone is qualified to decide who leads.



#120
ThreeF

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Plus, they avoid obnoxious political scheming, The Game, unending power struggles among nobles motivated by vanity that leave bodies in their wake. Vanity, in general, is anathema to Qunari culture. Humility sustains them.

 

I agree with the  most of what you wrote, but after talking to Arishok I got the impression that there is a lot of scheming and manipulation going on in the highest ranks of Qun, the kind that would put Orlesians to shame.


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#121
TevinterSupremacist

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I hate the Qun as a way of life, I love the Qun as a reality in parts of Thedas.



#122
wright1978

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I love it as a story concept. I really hope a future game deals with a Qunari invasion.

I don't like it personally as a religion, hence why i enjoy Isabela stealing their tome, Hawke lopping the Arishok's head off and betraying them resulting in the liberation of the Iron Bull from their thrall.



#123
Navasha

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As a philosophy/society/religion, the Qun is probably the most horrid thing I can imagine.   However, that always makes them the 'perfect' enemy too, so I hope the Qun continues as part of the series..  



#124
teh DRUMPf!!

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 In spirit, I very much like, admire, and identify with the Qun. It stands for lots of things I firmly believe in, and resembles a society closer to my ideal than any other in Thedas.

 

That being said, they really do go too far in many things, to the point where assigning roles is actually the practice I have the least issue with.

 

I have some hope for it. I believe IB says something (or was it Gatt?) about not liking everything about it, but that they can do more to make it better from within than without. But until the Qun becomes more agreeable with the world of Thedas outside Par Vollen, though, they are going to have to remain in the same category as Tevinter for me ("Burn It Down"). Unlike Tevinter, however, I will actually feel sorry about the fire.



#125
DarkAmaranth1966

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I don't hate the Qun. I would find it a good social system IF they simply allowed people to choose their jobs rather than handing them whatever the Tamassrans think the child is going to grow up to be best at. People change as they grow up, wait for it and let them choose what they will be.

 

Most kids I know will lie, so under the Qun, they'd all be Ben Hassrah. Most Kids also fight so, All Sten. Makes no sense to me, they outgrow those things and learn better ways to interact with others but, it seems they don't get the chance to do that under the Qun.

 

Now if Roles were assigned at 18, then they were trained, like going to university, sure, that works.