162 réponses à ce sujet

[TheJediSaint]

It's weird and kind of a headache to deal with.

[Ieldra]

My main Inquisitor, asked for the person she despises most, named Ashkaari Koslun. That should say enough about how much she hates the Qun. I am like her in this.

[SwobyJ]

I agree with the  most of what you wrote, but after talking to Arishok I got the impression that there is a lot of scheming and manipulation going on in the highest ranks of Qun, the kind that would put Orlesians to shame.

 

The worst kind of scheming. Anyone who is from a 'lalala everything is nice and happy ISN'T IT? NICE AND HAPPY? THIS IS HOW EVERYTHING MUST WORK IN ORDER TO BE GOOD.' family may sympathize.

 

EDIT: For the record, eventually parts of my family just broke off and almost all became much better off from it, and we're reforming, in our own ways and at our own pace, more 'natural' relationships and caring for each other, without the authoritarian air about how 'happy and good' this family 'needs to be'. (not the exact words, but I'm expressing the feeling)

 

I think the Qun may in fact burn down nearly entirely (as opposed to the Chantry simply being threatened and crumbling), before either it comes back better, or acts as something part of something new (goodbye any of the Old Qun). Maybe we'll get to decide it. I don't think the Qun as we 'know' it will last.

[Elfyoth]

I always veiws The Iron Bull as something like a lapsed Catholic, he still says he's part of the religon but he doesn't really believe in it anymore.

Really? I view him as a weapon that can tell funny jokes  

[Deebo305]

To be honest the Qun versus the Orliasian empire, reminds me a lot of our very own arguments. Of socialism versus democracy.

When you talk to Iron Bull

How do people live

No different from you they go to work, etc.

But they aren't really free

Are they really free here?

I mean they don't have free will

How much do people really have free will here

I'm paraphrasing, but that's the jist of it.

This particular conversation with Bull sums up why I don't hate the Qun. Its a society just as legitamate as any other in Thedas and while it may demand a great deal from it followers it no different from what the Chantry would ask its Templars to do or any noble with power would a Chevalier

Need I bring up good ol' Thom Rainer His actions are no different from everyones favorite Qunari

[Poledo]

It wasn't so problematic in DAO. It started just after DAII. Demands of the Qun, converted elves and similar things. I hate The Qun even though I like some of Qunari people.

 

The Qun sounds like an Orwellian society. If that is an accurate assumption - then I definitely do not like it.

[Sasie]

The Qunari for me are summed up in the small story of the baker that Solas saw in the fade. She put a bit more salt then she had been tought ino the bread she made every day as her own small rebellion and to make it a bit of her own yet if the Qunari ever found out they would probably see it as a crime. 

As Iron Bull say, according to the Qunari what you think is what you do and if the Qunari even find out anyone so much as think one thought that contridict their religion they will consider it a crime. Screw that!

[SwobyJ]

The Qunari for me are summed up in the small story of the baker that Solas saw in the fade. She put a bit more salt then she had been tought ino the bread she made every day as her own small rebellion and to make it a bit of her own yet if the Qunari ever found out they would probably see it as a crime. 

As Iron Bull say, according to the Qunari what you think is what you do and if the Qunari even find out anyone so much as think one thought that contridict their religion they will consider it a crime. Screw that!

 

Indeed. That level of inflexibility may be their, or others', downfall.

 

DA2 lets us understand more of Qun's internal workings. DAI lets us understand that Qun has people too, people who are more or less normal, not avatars to smash.

 

But we've never seen that the Qun is worth existing as it is.

[ThreeF]

I think the Qun may in fact burn down nearly entirely (as opposed to the Chantry simply being threatened and crumbling), before either it comes back better, or acts as something part of something new (goodbye any of the Old Qun). Maybe we'll get to decide it. I don't think the Qun as we 'know' it will last.

Well considering Bull's reaction about Kossith, I'm thinking that Qunari are in for surprise of the same kind elves had this time around.

 

(dwarves too)

[fizzypop]

Religion solves nothing. It is often worse than what mere people do on their own. It breeds followers and the status quo. People who cannot think for themselves and are prone to group think. People in groups are dangerous creatures. They can convince themselves of anything and often miss the finer details. They don't live in reality instead they live in the "reality" the group creates. There is no right or wrong, but only what said religion demands. Righteousness of character and morale aren't earned, but given so long as you follow the rules.

If you want leaders, forward thinkers, and in general people of strong will/mind then religion has to go. You cannot create heroes if you don't break the rules. I mean all you have to do is actually play DA games to see this. I mean look at where all the religious fanaticism has gotten them. No where. Every single hero in the DA series breaks the rules to get there even the companions do. So basically I feel this way about all religion the qun is no different. Just a different name for the same bs.

[Ashagar]

Lets not bring atheism which has its own flaws. People are people they don't need religion to make them worse only a ideology or a cause.

[NaclynE]

It wasn't so problematic in DAO. It started just after DAII. Demands of the Qun, converted elves and similar things. I hate The Qun even though I like some of Qunari people.

 

Truthfully it started in DA 2 not DAI. If you play the Tallis (MARK OF THE ASSASSIN) DLC she says it herself she is of the Qun and how she is qunari even though she is a elf. In a way I can see why people would defect and become "rouge" (Tal Vashoth. If you have a qunari inquisitor this is what you are). The rules are as harsh as being part of the Tevinter Imperium. But the thing about the Tal Vashoth is they seem to be without a code and without honor at times and want to do some evil stuff like making a total extermination of a society in Kirkwall just because they can't find a tome of their people and they feel at times people can be very weak minded. I know the Tal Vashoth Arishock in DA 2 was just one bad apple but the one qunari guy Tallis was after was selling qunari secrets to Celene of orlias in order to wipe out the qun too. I know these are two bad examples of being part of the Tal Vashoth but my point is when you are Tal vashoth you can turn to crime and mark yourself for death because you could do something very very bad to the qun or even just be marked for death just because you went AWOL.

 

Being part of the qun and being part of the Tal Vashoth is like a scale to me. They have their ups and downs depending on how you feel about your own survivability.

[fizzypop]

Lets not bring atheism which has its own flaws. People are people they don't need religion to make them worse only a ideology or a cause.

Where did I say anything about atheism? You can believe in higher power and not believe in religion or organized religion. You can also not care. You can also not believe and not be an atheist. Not everyone subscribes to groups. Mighty assumptions. I don't disagree that people can be assholes with any cause. That's precisely what I believe, but that's not what religions believe. They either believe everyone is good in spirit/heart or the opposite if you aren't one of us you're evil. Neither of those positions actually accomplishes anything. A middle ground is always needed. That middle ground is realizing people can be both good and bad. Learn to recognize the differences. What is right and true isn't always so obvious. That is what this game is all about. Look at Cullen and Cassie both betrayed by their own faith in a group. Their minds were made weak on purpose so they couldn't recognize the differences nor see the reality.

[SwobyJ]

Religion solves nothing. It is often worse than what mere people do on their own. It breeds followers and the status quo. People who cannot think for themselves and are prone to group think. People in groups are dangerous creatures. They can convince themselves of anything and often miss the finer details. They don't live in reality instead they live in the "reality" the group creates. There is no right or wrong, but only what said religion demands. Righteousness of character and morale aren't earned, but given so long as you follow the rules.

If you want leaders, forward thinkers, and in general people of strong will/mind then religion has to go. You cannot create heroes if you don't break the rules. I mean all you have to do is actually play DA games to see this. I mean look at where all the religious fanaticism has gotten them. No where. Every single hero in the DA series breaks the rules to get there even the companions do. So basically I feel this way about all religion the qun is no different. Just a different name for the same bs.

 

I personally find it easier to follow the more hopeful transhuman elements that get introduced over Mass Effect, than I do with any religious (not necessarily spiritually, but that depends) elements of Dragon Age. I guess that's just my personal scale and my IRL beliefs at play.

 

Yet I do believe that despite what bad comes out of it, religion was a net benefit and improvement for humanity, and perhaps necessary for our species for change out of the previous status quo ("ME STRONG. ME HIT YOU. ME GET YOUR THING. NO COMMUNITY." Even the supposedly peaceful non-'religious' tribes maintained this view of life.)

 

And I also do not regard religion as a universally negative thing with negative effects. I will not automatically spurn someone for beliefs and organization of those beliefs, that I don't subscribe to or regard as real.

 

And it helps that I regard Andrastianism to have significantly more evidence than IRL stuff, even if it isn't of outright truth (essentially admitted in DAI by various characters, unless you choose to not believe or agree with them).

[Regan_Cousland]

Yes, I "hate" the Qun. Or I would hate it if it were real, or were I an inhabitant of Thedas.
 

The Qun is Radical Islam, and Medieval Catholicism, and the Borg Collective.

It's power, expansion and control, sans personal freedom and intellectual growth. 

Yes, I'm sure the Qun has positive aspects, but so does a controlling, abusive spouse who ends up beating his or her partner to death. 

It's easy for people like ourselves, who play video games and use the internet and live in generally nice countries, to underestimate the value of freedom.

[fizzypop]

I personally find it easier to follow the more hopeful transhuman elements that get introduced over Mass Effect, than I do with any religious (not necessarily spiritually, but that depends) elements of Dragon Age. I guess that's just my personal scale and my IRL beliefs at play.

 

Yet I do believe that despite what bad comes out of it, religion was a net benefit and improvement for humanity, and perhaps necessary for our species for change out of the previous status quo ("ME STRONG. ME HIT YOU. ME GET YOUR THING. NO COMMUNITY." Even the supposedly peaceful non-'religious' tribes maintained this view of life.)

 

And I also do not regard religion as a universally negative thing with negative effects. I will not automatically spurn someone for beliefs and organization of those beliefs, that I don't subscribe to or regard as real.

 

And it helps that I regard Andrastianism to have significantly more evidence than IRL stuff, even if it isn't of outright truth (essentially admitted in DAI by various characters, unless you choose to not believe or agree with them).

Religion's only positive benefit is community which can be created in vastly better ways. I don't agree there is any benefit to an actual organized religion. Often the most beneficial religions are ones that aren't organized, but that you just believe and practice as you will. So I guess agree to disagree there. Change does not come with religion because religion doesn't want change. It wants things to remain the same. That's the issue. Things change and we should adapt, not hold on to ridic notions because of religion or tradition.

Something being "real" isn't good enough reason to do anything. Again group think, thinking for yourself requires much more effort. If any of it is real should have no bearing on what you do as a person because what you do matters. You have to live with yourself and you should always be questioning your actions. If you take comfort in your actions because of your faith then you aren't really thinking for yourself. You are allowing others to do that for you. You should be proud in your actions because they are yours, not because some higher being will reward or punish you. Qun and chantry are the same when you look at it from their followers. No questioning allowed. When someone tells you to not question them you should question them more. Their motives aren't pure.

I don't spur individuals for their faith. I blame the institutions and those that hold the power. Most faithful are simply misguided. *Note all these "yous/yours" are general ones*

[BabyPuncher]

I really dislike it when people talk about the supposed importance of 'thinking for yourself.'

 

It's just a lazy and underhanded way to say 'Agree with me!'

[Ashagar]

I just get annoyed with atheists talk about religion being intolerant, closed minded, etc. then show the exact same traits when they attack people who believe differently than them. Its a minor pet peeve of mine along with people make claims about history that I know are false from my studies of history.

[fizzypop]

I think the biggest difference between the qun and the chantry is that the qun is more consistent. The only thing that matters is the qun. You are a tool to be used as the qun sees fit. Nothing more. At least that's more honest and consistent. Chantry will be quick to tell you how horrible you are if you make a poor decision, but absolve you of others because it is "holy". That's neither honest nor consistent. "Holy" missions does not absolve you of your actions. Your actions will always be yours. That is kind of the consequence to life. The idea of freeing yourself from actions, consequences, and responsibilities is a lie. As I said look at Cullen it haunts him what he did. Iron Bull? No matter what choice he makes he realizes the weight of his actions. The lie eventually becomes undone.

[fizzypop]

I just get annoyed with atheists talk about religion being intolerant, closed minded, etc. then show the exact same traits when they attack people who believe differently than them. Its a minor pet peeve of mine along with people make claims about history that I know are false from my studies of history.

Everyone is intolerant, judgmental, and close minded. Everyone. At some point you can't be all accepting and encompassing. The issue with humanity DA universe is no different. Everything comes with a price, but the difference is simply who pays it. Religious organizations simply pass their price onto their lowest members or enemies. When you allow freedom the price still must be paid. Everyone pays it.Trust me no world view is ever perfect. I just know I would rather be fucked without religion than be fucked with religion. Ya know?
 

 

I really dislike it when people talk about the supposed importance of 'thinking for yourself.'

 

It's just a lazy and underhanded way to say 'Agree with me!'

I really dislike people who post one or two liners instead of offering up actual discussion. Sucks huh?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Let's keep real life out of this discussion. The only religions that should be discussed are the ones in Thedas. 

[Texhnolyze101]

Yes.

[BabyPuncher]

You do understand how incredibly silly it is to proclaim that if a group thinks something you don't like, the only reason anybody would agree with it is because the group does?

 

Perhaps you should 'think for yourself' instead of praising nonconformity.

[SwobyJ]

Religion's only positive benefit is community which can be created in vastly better ways. I don't agree there is any benefit to an actual organized religion. Often the most beneficial religions are ones that aren't organized, but that you just believe and practice as you will. So I guess agree to disagree there. Change does not come with religion because religion doesn't want change. It wants things to remain the same. That's the issue. Things change and we should adapt, not hold on to ridic notions because of religion or tradition.

I don't promote religion. However, I do appreciate when others appear to more freely choose to follow a religion, but do so in a comparatively less harmful way than fundamentalism, and focus on good works that I regard good works. I'd never call it my ideal, but I do think it is a more free society than if I strictly enforced my atheism on everyone.

Something being "real" isn't good enough reason to do anything. Again group think, thinking for yourself requires much more effort. If any of it is real should have no bearing on what you do as a person because what you do matters. You have to live with yourself and you should always be questioning your actions. If you take comfort in your actions because of your faith then you aren't really thinking for yourself. You are allowing others to do that for you. You should be proud in your actions because they are yours, not because some higher being will reward or punish you. Qun and chantry are the same when you look at it from their followers. No questioning allowed. When someone tells you to not question them you should question them more. Their motives aren't pure.

I don't spur individuals for their faith. I blame the institutions and those that hold the power. Most faithful are simply misguided. *Note all these "yous/yours" are general ones*

I pretty much agree with all of this (OH NO, NOT THINKING FOR SELF, *NODS HEAD* ).

This is even true when dealing with children and their parents. The parent may assuage themselves with good notions about telling the child things when they're 'ready', but their ability as the arbiter of 'when they are ready' is so often faulty that it is laughable. In the end, it is the parent's laziness why they don't tell (or at least translate downwards) the information about the world to a questioning child, and so I've seen it go with religion. The arbiters suck, and the organization is lazy, and there's not enough of a shared back and forth of questions and answers and communication, that the system stagnates and can barely adapt to anything.

I'm gonna stop before this goes far enough for locking.

[fizzypop]

You do understand how incredibly silly it is to proclaim that if a group thinks something you don't like, the only reason anybody would agree with it is because the group does?

 

Perhaps you should 'think for yourself' instead of praising nonconformity.

It isn't silly because it is well documented effect. The bystander effect is one such example. Since this cannot be on topic to IRL you can message me if you want to discuss that more, but you gonna have to better than a few liners. You mistake knowing the reality of the situation for praising nonconformity. Even nonconformity has its own dynamics and groups. >.> truth.

Now back to the actual topic. A good example of the bystander effect in Thedas would be Kirkwall and the templar order in Kirkwall, they allowed all that injustice to happen because they believed it was either A. right or B. that someone else would step in. That is what ultimately lead to the events in DA2. You actually play a hero who decides to NOT be the bystander and step in. Everyone could see what was happening and no one wanted to be the one to say "you know this is jacked" and actually do something about it. Cullen realizes this after the fact, but at least he takes responsibility for his inaction.