535 réponses à ce sujet

[Nefla]

The question is, where would the zots come from to make more of the stuff you want? Cutting a bunch of the cheaper quests wouldn't get you anywhere since those quests are, you know... cheap. To actually get anywhere with this you'd have to start cutting whole areas. Which is OK if you want to bite the bullet and start making the case that DAI should have had fewer areas, which is kind of where the OP started us. (I'm assuming the argument isn't just that DAI is too damn profitable as it is.)

We had a similar argument on the ME boards concerning the item recovery missions in ME3; "Citadel: Kakliosaur Fossil" and so forth. Cut all of them and you wouldn't free up enough wordcount to make one new N7 mission, even assuming you didn't have to give some of the wordcount back to make up for the lack of ambient dialogue on the Citadel once the mission NPCs go away.

If they used up the entire budget for extra content on extra zones with nothing but picking elfroots and killing wolves then yes, I'd prefer there were fewer zones with better quests.

[AlanC9]

Are we going all the way from DAI's BG1-style to a BG2-styled alternative DAI here? It'd work for me. I've never been a big fan of exploration for its own sake in CRPGs anyway; mostly because that isn't how we did it in PnP.

[Catastrophy]

Mmm, I rather think some maps are "over-designed" in the way they lead and guide the player by terrain. Also I often try climbing a ridge and then there is the "invisible barrier" that prevents me to go further. The map where it struck me most was the one that can be unlocked by finding the first shard. Picking the shards got quite annoying in the end with all the running to and fro.

 

In general the maps were quite OK, though. I was surprised about how large they actually are. I expected some larger than usual "level" with a couple of alternate routes. In the end it comes down to "couple of alternate routes" again, but I can't call them "levels" anymore. Since I didn't really expect open world I am rather pleased I can do some hiking in the maps.

[dlux]

EA made the areas in DA:I huge simply for the sake of being huge and couldn't figure out how to fill them up with good content. Picking flowers, mining ore, collecting bottles and other banalities, closing tons of rifts and killing respawns that fall from the sky for hours on end isn't any fun. 80% of the game is just busywork filler. As much as I dislike Skyrim and it's lackluster content, I have to say Bethesda did a much better job with Skyrim than Bioware did with DA:I.

 

All EA really had to do is look at how Bioware designed content in BG1, BG2, and DA:O....

[wright1978]

Yep i'd much prefer this open world experiment to be dialled back somewhat. Hopefully the next game will find a happier medium.

I want some exploration but don't want that feeling of grinding through large areas at expense of story.

[Degs29]

The opposite is true of me in that Inquisition actually reaffirmed in my mind the things that I just don't like about sandbox games. For me, the strong narrative elements of Inquisition were diluted by having them placed within those big, beautiful sandbox environments and I found many - if not most - of the games ancillary quests to be repetitive and dull, which was especially disappointing to those of us who were wooed by those early gameplay demos.

A terrific game regardless, but one which could have done with a touch less sandbox and a tad more story IMO.

 

I could go with that.  I usually don't hold with open-world games exactly for the reason you said:  it diluates the narrative.  I just think Bioware did a better job than most in this case.  DA:I is my favourite DA game...could it have been better if it was more contained and less open?  Maybe so.  But I still think it beats out DA:O and DA2. 

 

I think a lot of people were clamoring for an open-world Dragon Age game.  Now that we've got it, some of those same people are complaining about it being watered down.  It's like they didn't understand how an open-world game works.

[Olddog56]

Please bioware make the next DA on rails with one and only one path to take for every player and make sure the whole thing only lasts a couple of hours because..RL.

 

Please force us to play the way the devs demand and if anyone doesn't like it...hey...go pound sand losers!

 

And please make the world much much much smaller!

 

What were you guys thinking making such a massive world as DAI with 100's of hours of game time???

 

Are you people insane or what? I got a word(?) for you....(DLC)   Wow you could have split this massive world up into tiny bite sized chunks and milked the fans to death forever! See that you don't make the same mistake next time YO?

 

Yeah that's the ticket...and while your at it..

 

Make all the female characters look like pole dancing strippers...yeah and..transparent armor too because...b**bs.

 

And also my character should be the only male in the game because...harem fantasy.

 

I think Grand Theft Dragon Age: Lap Dance Edition pt 1 will be a HUGEE!!11!!! seller!

 

/sarcasm (in case you didn't get that)

[Nefla]

I could go with that.  I usually don't hold with open-world games exactly for the reason you said:  it diluates the narrative.  I just think Bioware did a better job than most in this case.  DA:I is my favourite DA game...could it have been better if it was more contained and less open?  Maybe so.  But I still think it beats out DA:O and DA2. 
 
I think a lot of people were clamoring for an open-world Dragon Age game.  Now that we've got it, some of those same people are complaining about it being watered down.  It's like they didn't understand how an open-world game works.

Perhaps people expected a world like Skyrim's (since BioWare said they were looking at it) and while Skyrim's main plot and lack of companions may be bad, they did a great job with the world. There are some fetch quests but there is a huge number of long and interesting quests as well as whole quest lines like the Dark Brotherhood and the thieves guild. Crafting, alchemy, and enchanting was better in Skyrim IMO and gear was more varied in look. You also have several towns with quests, shops, npcs to talk to, homes to buy, etc...I loved Skyrim's world and though FO:NV was even better so to me, this kind of game was what I expected of an open world, not a cheap MMO world where your goal in most quests is gathering 50 rat tails or killing some bandits. It's especially surprising since SWtOR isn't like that.

[phaonica]

Perhaps people expected a world like Skyrim's (since BioWare said they were looking at it) and while Skyrim's main plot and lack of companions may be bad, they did a great job with the world. There are some fetch quests but there is a huge number of long and interesting quests as well as whole quest lines like the Dark Brotherhood and the thieves guild. Crafting, alchemy, and enchanting was better in Skyrim IMO and gear was more varied in look. You also have several towns with quests, shops, npcs to talk to, homes to buy, etc...I loved Skyrim's world and though FO:NV was even better so to me, this kind of game was what I expected of an open world, not a cheap MMO world where your goal in most quests is gathering 50 rat tails or killing some bandits. It's especially surprising since SWtOR isn't like that.

 

I agree. Skyrim's primary storylines actually trailed you through a lot of the landmarks. There was far more opportunity to go, "While I'm in the area doing this main quest, I'll take a look around." As opposed to there being huge sections of the map that were never even used as part of the primary quests. You rarely had the reason to ask yourself, "why does this area exist? there's nothing here but sidequests".

[Crackseed]

I agree. Skyrim's primary storylines actually trailed you through a lot of the landmarks. There was far more opportunity to go, "While I'm in the area doing this main quest, I'll take a look around." As opposed to there being huge sections of the map that were never even used as part of the primary quests. You rarely had the reason to ask yourself, "why does this area exist? there's nothing here but sidequests".

 

How far have you actually played into DAI yet? Just curious for purposes of further adding to the discussion.

 

While I am not in a position to actively talk about Skyrim in it's entirety, this is because for me - Skyrim was a vast open waste of time and boredom. I recognize that the game is beautiful, huge and for a sandbox person/mod-happy player? Amazing. But I simply found it a boring trek for hours poking at various areas going "Eh" combined with what I found to be a snooze-worthy combat system. But, that's neither here nor there for DAI discussion. Even in saying all that, again - much respect for Skyrim for what it is, just not my cup of tea.

 

But to the point about DAI's side quest zones being basically a waste of space for side quests - have you actually COMPLETED these zones?

 

Emprise du Lion. Emerald Graves. Exalted Plains. Each of these zones, while not having a "main" plot quest in them, has a large story thread that still ties into main story events - further, you note that Skyrim guided you around so you could do things as you went for big objectives. DAI is not much different here - the people clamoring that "OMG it's just an endless land of picking flowers, etc." when this is patently false.

 

I recently completed Emerald Graves - in it, I found several quest threads with large relevance to events that pertain to the main plot - while they do not affect it, they certainly stood out as something that would merit attention and time from the Inquisition to investigate and solve. In the course of these objectives, as I moved through the map pursuing these goals and helping people, I collected shards, purged rifts and when I FELT like it, gathered some crafting materials. 

 

This whole "Gotta pick everything as I go!" or "Focus only on the menial tasks!" mentality is damaging to your game experience. Why would you do that? You wouldn't do that IRL - you'd multi-task and the game arranges this pretty well. I look at my quest object - ok, around this, there's 2 shards I can grab quickly working towards my goal of understanding and unlocking the Temple in Oasis...and I also happened to gather a few nodes of metal that will help my crafting. Excellent - now to focus on the actual objective. No time wasted. No massive tedium. One area of Emerald Graves cleaned and finished and on to the next quest portion...

 

While I understand the way I do this may not be how someone else does it, the point stands - these zones are not simply giant wastes of space. There is relevance and flow to them and I respectfully submit that if people are going in and only going "God, I gotta comb this zone for ALL THE FLOWER THINGS" without focusing on the relevant quests and gathering around that, you're making it less fun on yourself in the end.

[In Exile]

I don't think side quests have to be tied directly into the plot, but they should be tied into the setting. So, lets use what seems to be the favorite example of "collect 10 ram meats". All they have to do is show a struggling village and have an NPC explain how the war or a demon attack has caused the village to fall on hard times and the people are hungry. Then after you collect the ram meats, the village improves the next time you visit. The quest is still a fetch quest, but it was no longer empty because it impacted the world. Does Inquisition do this?

Yes. It does. Well, the dialogue says that. There's no visual change which IMO is a mistake.

[In Exile]

Are we going all the way from DAI's BG1-style to a BG2-styled alternative DAI here? It'd work for me. I've never been a big fan of exploration for its own sake in CRPGs anyway; mostly because that isn't how we did it in PnP.

That's the complaint. I liked BG1 so I don't mind DAI but we're clearly dealing with the same issue that came up when Bioware made the switch in BG2.

[In Exile]

Perhaps people expected a world like Skyrim's (since BioWare said they were looking at it) and while Skyrim's main plot and lack of companions may be bad, they did a great job with the world. There are some fetch quests but there is a huge number of long and interesting quests as well as whole quest lines like the Dark Brotherhood and the thieves guild. Crafting, alchemy, and enchanting was better in Skyrim IMO and gear was more varied in look. You also have several towns with quests, shops, npcs to talk to, homes to buy, etc...I loved Skyrim's world and though FO:NV was even better so to me, this kind of game was what I expected of an open world, not a cheap MMO world where your goal in most quests is gathering 50 rat tails or killing some bandits. It's especially surprising since SWtOR isn't like that.

I disagree completely. I found Skyrim's quest lines to generally be the same dull and uninteresting thing over and over again. Where they did very well was when they totally came up with clever atmosphere for their identical content (e.g. the daedra stuff). But that wasn't the quest but atmosphere.

[Nefla]

I disagree completely. I found Skyrim's quest lines to generally be the same dull and uninteresting thing over and over again. Where they did very well was when they totally came up with clever atmosphere for their identical content (e.g. the daedra stuff). But that wasn't the quest but atmosphere.

So if you found quest lines like the dark brotherhood, thieves guild, a daedra's best friend, etc...so dull, what kinds of side quests do you find interesting? The most boring quests in Skyrim (ex: bounty postings, find a mammoth tusk, etc...) are the bread and butter of DA:I side quests. I'll take quests with dungeons, interactive npcs, unique gear, and an actual motivation or storyline to "bring an herb to a tree" any day.

[AllThatJazz]

So if you found quest lines like the dark brotherhood, thieves guild, a daedra's best friend, etc...so dull, what kinds of side quests do you find interesting? The most boring quests in Skyrim (ex: bounty postings, find a mammoth tusk, etc...) are the bread and butter of DA:I side quests. I'll take quests with dungeons, interactive npcs, unique gear, and an actual motivation or storyline to "bring an herb to a tree" any day.

I don't think they are the bread and butter, though. I mean there's a guy in Skyhold who literally sells power and influence so you don't have to do those sorts of quests if you don't want to. The bread and butter of Bioware quests are companion quests (very well done in DAI), the area quests (sort the undead problem in Crestwood, rescue the soldiers in Fallow Mire), probably closing rifts (this is what you're supposed to do as the guy/gal with the glowy hand, right?) and main story (which, Morrowind aside, has never been the focus of Bethesda's attention).

 

Then they've also added some of BG1's bread and butter, which is a few maps (Forbidden Oasis etc) that are just there for exploration. I've found some fantastic smaller quests dotted around so far, it's a real shame you and others are boiling down wonderful moments like the time-freeze dungeon into 'bring herb x to place y' or 'ram meat'. I'd love more of that type of content, for sure, but there's more there already than you're claiming, I think.

[Sondermann]

 

 

 

So if you found quest lines like the dark brotherhood, thieves guild, a daedra's best friend, etc...so dull, what kinds of side quests do you find interesting? The most boring quests in Skyrim (ex: bounty postings, find a mammoth tusk, etc...) are the bread and butter of DA:I side quests. I'll take quests with dungeons, interactive npcs, unique gear, and an actual motivation or storyline to "bring an herb to a tree" any day.

 

I would agree with In Exile that the quest lines in Skyrim aren't particularly interesting (for me that's mostly because I don't care for any of the characters in the world or even the world itself - the dialogue is eminently skippable and mostly devoid of any semblance of wit), I nevertheless love the mechanics (well, not all of them) or actual gameplay very much. It's not very complicated and challenging but fun in the best sense. Using proper lighting mods I could sneakily go exploring dark dungeons forever, equipped with a bow.

DA has the better overall story, character and writing but the downside is, that it is much more focused and limited in the ways you can play it (no stealthy approach, no going out on your own, no first person perspective, which changes gameplay quite a bit as well).

[Lebanese Dude]

*SNIP*

[In Exile]

So if you found quest lines like the dark brotherhood, thieves guild, a daedra's best friend, etc...so dull, what kinds of side quests do you find interesting? The most boring quests in Skyrim (ex: bounty postings, find a mammoth tusk, etc...) are the bread and butter of DA:I side quests. I'll take quests with dungeons, interactive npcs, unique gear, and an actual motivation or storyline to "bring an herb to a tree" any day.

There are no quests in Skyrim that have "interactive" NPCs to any greater degree than DAI, and there's certainly no motivation in those quest lines.

But I didn't say they weren't fun. I said I liked the atmosphere. I just don't think their design is ANY different from any other quest in Skyrim or DAI. The atmospheric quests in DAI have a different name: main quests. The DAI side quests are the minor ones not the major highlights like daedra and dark brotherhood.

This will have slight spoilers for anyone reading (of the first major zone):

Spoiler

And I think DAI quests have a fair amount of dialogue. Take the cult you find in the hinterlands. You have 3 NPCs you can speak to and you can ask them a few investigation questions. The woman leader asks you about yourself and you can RP your view as Herald. When you defeat the rift you can choose what the cult will do for you e.g. spread word of the inquisition or help the refugees. s

[Crackseed]

I have a couple of friends who are pretty die hard Bethesda fans and while I will not pretend they speak for everyone, when their glowing praise of Bethesda's storytelling comes down to "Dark Brotherhood is the best quest in the game!" and it's a side mission I have to kind of wonder.

 

I think DAI definitely could have done certain facets of the side zones better - there is simply no denying that, but I don't believe for a second that all we got was a main plot and endless filler on the side as my own experience points this out as false.

 

There's as much needless busy work as YOU want to have in the game - while I want to continue to push Bioware to make adjustments to certain things which contribute to some of the feelings of tedium (better looting methods for both mob drops AND crafting mats) this game is in no way a hollow experience full of fetch-quests IMO.

[ohnotherancor]

I think DA:I has a few flaws, but it's a great start. The formula should be refined, not discarded. I don't miss cutscenes for minor quests, but I do wish we had more quests via dialogue instead of codex. I honestly hate important information being conveyed via codex; in fact, that was one of my main criticisms of DA2 with the Band of Three entries.

 

My issue is that the maps should have more story relevance, with strong reasons to be in each area. Or at least with fun major side quests. I love Crestwood and Emprise du Lion. I am less of a fan of the Hissing Wastes.

 

I am not in favor of returning to DA:O's ugly narrow corridors or DA2's limited hubs that give no real sense of proportion. As an aside, I hope future games do not implement a day/night cycle. It's incredibly annoying when a simple conversation with a blacksmith seemingly spans from noon to midnight.

[In Exile]

I think DA:I has a few flaws, but it's a great start. The formula should be refined, not discarded. I don't miss cutscenes for minor quests, but I do wish we had more quests via dialogue instead of codex. I honestly hate important information being conveyed via codex; in fact, that was one of my main criticisms of DA2 with the Band of Three entries.

My issue is that the maps should have more story relevance, with strong reasons to be in each area. Or at least with fun major side quests. I love Crestwood and Emprise du Lion. I am less of a fan of the Hissing Wastes.

I am not in favor of returning to DA:O's ugly narrow corridors or DA2's limited hubs that give no real sense of proportion. As an aside, I hope future games do not implement a day/night cycle. It's incredibly annoying when a simple conversation with a blacksmith seemingly spans from noon to midnight.

I actually don't mind the codex stuff as much as I usually do because the they come up in the context of the game. We need better ways of conveying that information but you're finding codex entries usually on what's actively happening vs. archeological infodumps.

At least in the Hinterlands because that's as far as I've gotten.

[phaonica]

How far have you actually played into DAI yet? Just curious for purposes of further adding to the discussion.

I have completed the main storyline once. I am on my second playthrough

Spoiler

with the Templar quest and the Winter Palace quest finished, ready to start the Warden quest.

 

But to the point about DAI's side quest zones being basically a waste of space for side quests - have you actually COMPLETED these zones?
 
Emprise du Lion. Emerald Graves. Exalted Plains. Each of these zones, while not having a "main" plot quest in them, has a large story thread that still ties into main story events - further, you note that Skyrim guided you around so you could do things as you went for big objectives. DAI is not much different here - the people clamoring that "OMG it's just an endless land of picking flowers, etc." when this is patently false.

 

Spoiler

I haven't unlocked Emprise du Lion in either playthrough. Do you have to unlock Emerald Graves in order to visit the Mythal Temple? If so, then that's the only reason I would have unlocked that one. I think I went into the Exalted Plains briefly for some reason. So no, I have not explored much of those zones.

I did, in my second playthrough, complete nearly all the missions on the Storm Coast, and it was awful. Maybe I just picked a bad zone, but I felt there was just nothing interesting there (except some neat looking dungeon that I didn't seem to be allowed to enter, yet).

I do think that Skyrim guided you around far better than DAI does. Skyrim's main storylines (including guild quests) required you to participate in some main story event in every major city. Almost every city was part of the primary storylines in some way. DAI is not the same. The main plot incorporates very few of the zones. The side zones themselves may incorporate the main plot, but rarely the other way around.

Now, I did include guild quests in my previous Skyrim example, and I haven't been including companion personal quests, which I probably should. I actually didn't do a lot of the companion quests, either, because a lot of them felt like collection quests.

 

Spoiler

No, Blackwall, I am not going to travel from sea to sea gathering up a dozen low-priority Warden artifacts for you, just because. If we happen to find one while I'm doing something important, then sure, I'll let you know. No, Cassandra, we have a demon army to stop, I think your murder 10 guys request can wait until later. If we get low on Power, I'll keep you in mind.

Solas had a good personal quest that I really liked design-wise because it was urgent, required me to traverse a significant portion of one of the zones, and didn't feel like a collection quest.

Even Skyrim had some irritating collection quests. "I left an item in each city, would you go get them for me?" is not a compelling reason to visit each city. There should actually be some kind of story event there. And if there *were* a compelling story somewhere there, I wouldn't know because the premise is not interesting enough to even start the mission.

[AllThatJazz]

@Phaonica you know that the companion fetch quests aren't the actual companion quests, don't you? Triggering Blackwall's 'proper' quest does require you to gather a particular GW artifact, but that isn't the meat of his companion quest.  And that isn't Cass's actual companion quest either. 

[Nefla]

There are no quests in Skyrim that have "interactive" NPCs to any greater degree than DAI, and there's certainly no motivation in those quest lines.

But I didn't say they weren't fun. I said I liked the atmosphere. I just don't think their design is ANY different from any other quest in Skyrim or DAI. The atmospheric quests in DAI have a different name: main quests. The DAI side quests are the minor ones not the major highlights like daedra and dark brotherhood.

This will have slight spoilers for anyone reading (of the first major zone):

Spoiler

And I think DAI quests have a fair amount of dialogue. Take the cult you find in the hinterlands. You have 3 NPCs you can speak to and you can ask them a few investigation questions. The woman leader asks you about yourself and you can RP your view as Herald. When you defeat the rift you can choose what the cult will do for you e.g. spread word of the inquisition or help the refugees. s

In Skyrim sidequests, NPCs will often venture through a cave/dungeon/whatever with you, you can talk to them several times, they interact with objects and fight enemies, interact with othe NPCs, make comments about what's going on, and you can often choose to sacrifice them, betray them, save them, recruit them, etc...I only found one quest in DA:I where an NPC played a part in a quest beyond "thank you for freeing me" or "please find my nug" that was the measuring the veil quest with that Dalish woman, but even that quest was only 2 minutes long.

 

Compare quests like:

Skyrim's "under Sarthaal" where you are a student at a mage school and your teacher takes you and the other students to a ruin to study it. He gives lessons and instructions as you make your way through, you can talk to the fellow students, each is given a separate assignment, and when you do your assignment it opens up a secret passage that leads you and your teacher through a winding path with traps, enemies, a boss, and a powerful magical artifact that ends up being central to the college of winterhold questline. (as well as a cool scene with the Psijic order freezing time to contact you)

 

To DA:I's "agrarian apostate" where a woman tells you Templars killed her husband and took his ring so you go kill a group of random enemy Templars with no preamble or ability to talk to them, get the ring as loot, and give it back. Though even this is better than quests like "mama's ring" where you again return a ring you find in the hills but this time the NPC doesn't even really talk to you.  

 

As far as NPCs having a good amount of Dialogue in DA:I, I disagree. Three people out of a whole settlement being interactive isn't a satisfying number to begin with (in my opinion at least) but when they each only have 1-4 lines of dialogue it's even worse.