535 réponses à ce sujet

[Rahelron]

Game developers adapt from time to time and so should gamers. If you don't like the direction then save your $60 bucks and move onto something else. I say that as someone who doesn't love DAI and is having trouble even being motivated enough to finish the game. That's a first for me playing a Bioware game. It wasn't a bad first attempt at a semi-open world game but their lack of experience with this format shows.

 

Yes, thy lack experience with the format, but they are also trying to keep their feet in too many shoes.

• Combat wise their system is an hybrid between tactical gameplay baldur's gate style and action gameplay MMO style.
• Exploration wise their game is an hybrid between a sandbox game like Skyrim and a story driven game like previous Bioware RPGs.

 

Talking about combat I think they should choose and I also think they had nailed the formula in DA2. Why did thay change it? Combat was pretty much the only thing of DA2 that got unanimous praise in the reviews. Ok, some DAO fans complained on the forums about the lack of a tactical camera, but I think they would have bought DAI even without it.

 

Talking about exploration (and everything else): ok, we have a bigger world now, a very diverse one too. It's what we wanted: a bigger world with no re-used areas, but I would argue Bioware went to far. DAI world is too big and the problem in such cases is that you can't fill all areas with meaningful content. It's something that happened with lots of MMOs I can't explain to myself wny Bioware didn't think about it. Big worlds also go against meaningful choices, since when you have to make a lot of missions to fill every area you find it difficoult to put branching paths, cutscenes and consequences in every one of those.

[BammBamm]

Criticising Inquisition for the amount of "fetch quests" and praising Skyrim for lacking that type of quest is laughable.

 

 

Bethesda's writers are... confusing. Some sidequests and the odd character here and there are flashed out and very well written. In comparison, the vast majority of the game's narrative content is very much average.

 

The lore is what puts TES in its own pedestal.

 

 

problem is that meaningfull or big sidequests are a lot of more work than fetch quests. yes with unlimited time and money we could expect a game with a huge open world and no filler content but in practice its just not doable. hell these games are developed over years and only cost money at this time, do somebody really think the developers are just playing with their balls in the meantime? when you cut the wages for expensive actors a aaa game is meanwhile nearly as expensive as a blockbuster movie and there you get for 15 bucks entertainment for 2 hours

[finc.loki]

I have to say I have a distinct feeling a lot of the developers on SWTOR moved on to DAI. The whole MMO is just so noticeable.

 

Think of how the enemies are almost always in small groups and scattered at an almost mathematical interval between each other, JUST like SWTOR.

You could literally (yes literally) see a group of 2-4 enemies scattered all over the map in SWTOR, stray too close and you draw aggro, it's like navigating between bowling pins.

Then the whole fetch quests, and SUPER idiotic ones at that. Like the one in Redcliffe, I mean come on, "can you help me place flowers on my wife's grave". Or the "gather 10 Ram meat". Strategically placed further into the map so you "explore" the map and find that it is UTTERLY BORING. There are no cool caves with several levels and awesome rewards (Skyrim), it's just devoid of anything except flowers and metal and some random animals.

What is the point of these nice looking maps if they are empty and boring?

 

The story seems really sparse and you feel really disconnected to it by exploring a map, because they become too far and few in between. If you focus only on story you miss out on the maps and the game would be really short. Hence the "power" so you have to run around in the boring maps to gain some to open new areas.

 

This game REEKS of MMO. The combat, OMG what did they do. They sucked all the fun out of it and made it attrition, exactly like MMO's. It is a carbon copy of SWTOR in many ways.

Hacking away at a healthbar, the lowest form of gaming.

Then what is up with the super dark caves? Is it just me or are they pitch black? Can't see crap, all I see are red health bars of spiders and deep stalkers (Storm coast) I can't even see the interior, I upped my gamma to 75% I mean what the hell were they thinking. Also there is almost no point in this super tiny "dungeons/caves" they have nothing in them and they are so small It's like running into a tent.

 

Combat is now based on trying to not get damage, which is unavoidable unless playing broken OP builds, so you have to run to camp and get potions, O THE JOY!!! I want to have FUN playing a game, not feel like I am doing a menial chore and get frustrated.

 

What the hell happened? DA 2 had really fun combat, and they "wanted to get away from that", because of "waves of enemies". Instead we get 4 enemies and attrition.

Nevermind that i constantly see people faceroll NIGHTMARE MODE. So much for that combat.

 

 

I just can't get myself excited to play, I just worry about, is it worth my time run around a map with nothing in it or just finish the game in no time by doing the main story.

[Rahelron]

Criticising Inquisition for the amount of "fetch quests" and praising Skyrim for lacking that type of quest is laughable.

 

 

Bethesda's writers are... confusing. Some sidequests and the odd character here and there are flashed out and very well written. In comparison, the vast majority of the game's narrative content is very much average.

 

The lore is what puts TES in its own pedestal.

 

Skyrim sidequests are not good in delivering spectacle and movie like moments because there are no cutscenes in TES. 

 

But Skyrim sidequests are storydriven, have emotional stakes, are VERY LONG, have branching paths... they are a master class in great quest design. Sidequests in Skyrim, and particularly Guild Quests, also have the great plus of not being connected with the main storyline in any way. This makes the player feel that the world is alive, that there are many things going on at once and that not everyone is concerned with what he is doing. In Dragon Age we never had the possibility to join the Circle of Magi and become a Great Enchanter, or to join the templars. We joined the Grey Wardens in the first game, but it was a forced decision required by the plot, not something that was part of the world and that you, as a player, were allowed choose wether to do it or not.

 

Imagine what would have happened in DAI if the player, instead of being forced to be "the inquisitor", had been allowed

• To choose which faction to join (Templars, Mages, Chevaliers of Orlais, Grey Wardens...)
• To progress through the ranks, finally becoming the grand master
• To guide his faction against the others, conquering their fortresses and finally destroying them or allying with them

That would have been great and would have been a REAL CHOICE.

[finc.loki]

Go read a choose your own adventure book if you want a "story driven game".  I like Inquisition and the big, open world.

Yes, because both DAO and DA2 wasn't story driven at all. Did you even play them?

What world do you live in being so utterly devoid of what Bioware games USED to be?

 

Big open NOTHINGNESS. If only they made it FUN, and actually had proper side quests and dungeons and rewards.

[Medhia_Nox]

I think the problem some people have is that the game didn't tell you what to do in these environments.  If the game doesn't give little numbers to chase or little reward blips to congratulate - then some people can't find the worth and it's "boring".

 

Each area is ingrained into the story... but they're not essential to completing the main narrative.  This game doesn't railroad you and actually allows you to complete content only if you want to (within reason of course). 

My only criticism would be to have more events like: 

 

- Wartabe missions you find instead of just receive (though I think you should be able to devote resources to them without returning to the wartable)

 

- More changes outside of the Hinterlands/Crestwood.  The Hinterlands can be pretty radically different after you finish it.  It's pretty peaceful place that feels like you genuinely brought that peace to the area.  In Crestwood, of course, you actually lower a lake (I would have loved to see people slowly starting to reclaim Old Crestwood).

 

- Larger Inquisitor presence than two people in a camp.  In fact, I think it would be interesting if there had been a mechanic where you could strengthen your camps and they would provide you with free regional resources BUT they could also be attacked diminishing the resources (but the camp could never be destroyed).

 

====

 

I totally support what they did here.  It wasn't perfect in my opinion, but it was absolutely better than the obstacle courses of DA:O and 2.  

[finc.loki]

Again, I think you're completely wrong. Skyrim has some solid side quests, true. But again these quests pale in comparison the the DAI main quest. And Skyrim doesn't have anything that could even come close to rivaling that quest.

As for the living world part, there are just no words to express how much I disagree. Haven and Skyhold are more alive - as in filled with the actual stuff that real humans as opposed to worker ants do - than anything Skyrim has ever done. There are few zones with people in the beside Haven and Skyhold and that's disappointing, and those zones have less scripted ambient dialogues, but what makes a world alive is people hanging out and talking about mundane stuff in their lives, not getting buckets of water and marching around town on a night-day cycle.

While I appreciate you don't like DAI, I just can't agree with you on the substance. I liked DAI when I was in the Hinterlands - the sequence leading to Skyhold IMO is the greatest part of any Bioware game ever. DAI might be my favourite Bioware game over KoTOR and JE. It takes all the parts I didn't like in DAO and fixes them brilliantly.

I can't take you seriously. DAI has no movement at ALL with the NPC's in the skyhold or Haven or Redcliffe etc. They just stand there.

Skyrim actually have AI that moves and do daily things, they have lots of them in SEVERAL large cities, where can you find them in DAI? Exactly a fn castle that is it.

 

Side quests were deep in Skyrim. A whole deep dungeon for just a special amulet. Many caves and dungeons with several levels filled with enemies and things to find.

 

It had guilds that acts like giant side quests with story arcs. Main story as well ( not great but still).

 

There is absolutely NO substance to DAI except the main missions. The maps are devoid of anything interesting. They are pretty that is about it.

It's like playing Skyrim with 95% of all the dungeons and caves missing.

 

Bioware haven't understood open world does NOT go well with storytelling, hence why the world is so empty and why it gets so boring in between the main missions.

 

I still can't get over how you can say DAI has better lived in world than Skyrim? That skyhold and Haven have real stuff that humans do. They aren't even doing anything. They JUST STAND THERE. Like statues.

[finc.loki]

Also as a comparison to Skyrim. Their dungeons and caves are really elaborate and large. They have traps and puzzles, side quests and be really long and deep for the goal of getting an awesome sword etc. The cities actually have NPC that moves about on a daily routine and not stand still.

Bioware does have better stories, but in DAI it gets spread out among empty pretty maps. It really is night and day compared to other 'open' world games.

 

It's like this is a beta game or something. Because their maps are so devoid of fun, caves are minute and so small and almost pointless.

Just take a look at some dungeons in Skyrim. THAT is how you make exploration fun on large maps. This is something Bioware failed miserably at. To the detriment of the game.

[tmp7704]

Skyrim actually have AI that moves and do daily things

I believe that's what In Exile refers to as "worker ants" thing. Yes, Skyrim NPCs move around a place on a fixed loop. And that's pretty much all they ever do, it's completely pointless, empty activity which doesn't recognize the state of the game world at large. BW went a different route with their NPCs, by sprinkling the generic spawns with groups that hold some actual conversations which can take into account events in the world.

[BammBamm]

I can't take you seriously. DAI has no movement at ALL with the NPC's in the skyhold or Haven or Redcliffe etc. They just stand there.

Skyrim actually have AI that moves and do daily things, they have lots of them in SEVERAL large cities, where can you find them in DAI? Exactly a fn castle that is it.

 

Side quests were deep in Skyrim. A whole deep dungeon for just a special amulet. Many caves and dungeons with several levels filled with enemies and things to find.

 

It had guilds that acts like giant side quests with story arcs. Main story as well ( not great but still).

 

There is absolutely NO substance to DAI except the main missions. The maps are devoid of anything interesting. They are pretty that is about it.

It's like playing Skyrim with 95% of all the dungeons and caves missing.

 

Bioware haven't understood open world does NOT go well with storytelling, hence why the world is so empty and why it gets so boring in between the main missions.

 

I still can't get over how you can say DAI has better lived in world than Skyrim? That skyhold and Haven have real stuff that humans do. They aren't even doing anything. They JUST STAND THERE. Like statues.

 

and what are the benefits of moving characters? did you ever followed only one to see what he is doing the whole day (unless its quest necessary)? thats only a thing you can advertise but nothing that advance the game.

guild quests in skyrim are mainquests, because, well, there is nearly no mainquest (content wise, walking is a LOT for main quest)

and a side quest is deep because of one shiny drop? a drop which is mostly outnumbered by the crafting possibilities? in a dungeon that is build exactly from the same tiles as every generic dungeon? did you visit the dwarfen thing in hinterlands or the temple with the frozen time in da:i?

the only thing that skyrim did better was the presentation of the masses of fetch quests it had. but to hear a story about a girl hijacked by orks and a questmarker showing the girl in the middle of an orc camp is gameplaywise exact the same thing.

 

skyrim had a few really good "not main quests" and da:i has a great mainquest but often really generic sidequests (but far from nothing with meaning). its funny people always bring the ram meat and the flower/grave mission on the table, two of the first quests in hinterland, and after this nearly none examples about it. maybe because the quest design gets better or they just repeat what they heard of skyrim got tons of dungeons and 90% were generic, da:i have only a view real "locations" but each one is unique.

 

and sorry to talk about difficulty in skyrim is a joke in itself. the combat system and balancing were and are one of the biggest issues in tes titles. jump on a rock and range everything to dead because of the more than stupid ai. 

 

skyrim is in no way superior to da:i, only the mods make a difference (and for skyrim 90% of the mods were graphical enhancements to make the hated "walking clueless through the envirement and enjoy it" from da:i more satisfying)

[Darkly Tranquil]

I think the problem some people have is that the game didn't tell you what to do in these environments.  If the game doesn't give little numbers to chase or little reward blips to congratulate - then some people can't find the worth and it's "boring".
 
Each area is ingrained into the story... but they're not essential to completing the main narrative.  This game doesn't railroad you and actually allows you to complete content only if you want to (within reason of course). 

But the story is what matters here. If things in the zones are only tenuously connected to the main plot, why should we care what's there? If the devs want us to go to those places and explore them, why not integrate that into the story, rather than just putting it all there and going, "umm...Just do the bits you want. Or...don't." Either these things matter to the story, or they don't. If they don't why should the player bother with them? And why did the devs spend time creating them? Their time could have been better spent on the lead up to the finale with Corypheus than creating random side quests that don't really amount to anything of substance.

[Vox Draco]

I believe that's what In Exile refers to as "worker ants" thing. Yes, Skyrim NPCs move around a place on a fixed loop. And that's pretty much all they ever do, it's completely pointless, empty activity which doesn't recognize the state of the game world at large. BW went a different route with their NPCs, by sprinkling the generic spawns with groups that hold some actual conversations which can take into account events in the world.

 

Yeah, I hope Bethesda eventually gives up on this and simply tries to create cities that actually feel alive. Not that Denerim in DAO, Kirkwall in DA2 or Orlais felt more alive, in the contrary. But Bethesda's obsession with that NPC-AI-thing I never understood.

 

Though I hate to jump on that bandwagon both companies should just do the CD-Red approach, and fill their cities with loads of wandering no-named NPCs that walk around, talk, scream, do work-animations and give the illusion of live .. when I saw footage of the upcoming City in Witcher 3, Novigrad, I was like: Yeah, that looks like a city that actually lives, breathes and stinks! (Hopefully it is as this in the finished game)

[Medhia_Nox]

@Darkly Tranquil:  

- Do you consider Venatori activity in the Hissing Wastes "tenuously connected"?  I don't.  

 

- Do you consider saving Orlesian soldiery from "Freemen" rebels who are being spurred on by Venatori and bringing peace to the Exalted Plains by stopping Necromantic plots "tenuously connected"?  I don't.

 

Just because you don't get big sign after doing the Hissing Wastes that says: "GOOD JOB, YOU'RE ADVANCING PLOT!"  Doesn't mean it isn't part of the story.

 

People seem to need a race track where they can only run in one direction and not advance any further unless "this part of the track" is completed.  

[Darkly Tranquil]

Yeah, I hope Bethesda eventually gives up on this and simply tries to create cities that actually feel alive. Not that Denerim in DAO, Kirkwall in DA2 or Orlais felt more alive, in the contrary. But Bethesda's obsession with that NPC-AI-thing I never understood.
 
Though I hate to jump on that bandwagon both companies should just do the CD-Red approach, and fill their cities with loads of wandering no-named NPCs that walk around, talk, scream, do work-animations and give the illusion of live .. when I saw footage of the upcoming City in Witcher 3, Novigrad, I was like: Yeah, that looks like a city that actually lives, breathes and stinks! (Hopefully it is as this in the finished game)

As much as it pains me to say it (because Ubisoft suck), the one thing Assassin's Creed does well is making its cities feel populated and alive. Novigrad also looks very promising, but Witcher 2 suffered from the same problem DAO and DA2 did, big city, almost no people, so it remains to be seen how lively they are able to make it.

[tmp7704]

But the story is what matters here. If things in the zones are only tenuously connected to the main plot, why should we care what's there? If the devs want us to go to those places and explore them, why not integrate that into the story, rather than just putting it all there and going, "umm...Just do the bits you want. Or...don't." Either these things matter to the story, or they don't. If they don't why should the player bother with them? And why did the devs spend time creating them?

Leaving it as option rather than mandatory activity that you "should" care about allows more room for roleplaying your character -- you can decide on your own if the connection with the main plot is strong enough for your character to bother, and it may vary depending on what character you choose to role play.

[BammBamm]

Yeah, I hope Bethesda eventually gives up on this and simply tries to create cities that actually feel alive. Not that Denerim in DAO, Kirkwall in DA2 or Orlais felt more alive, in the contrary. But Bethesda's obsession with that NPC-AI-thing I never understood.

 

Though I hate to jump on that bandwagon both companies should just do the CD-Red approach, and fill their cities with loads of wandering no-named NPCs that walk around, talk, scream, do work-animations and give the illusion of live .. when I saw footage of the upcoming City in Witcher 3, Novigrad, I was like: Yeah, that looks like a city that actually lives, breathes and stinks! (Hopefully it is as this in the finished game)

 

not to forget the "interactive world" where you can talk to anybody and every single one of the hundreds of npcs in the game answered from a table of maybe 10 possibilities. it was sooo bad that even the arrow to the knee become a running gag in the internet

[Baerdface]

But big areas filled with pointless busywork with no context is the future of gaming! **** all that roleplaying and making ambiguous decisions based on what kind of character you're trying to play as. It's so 1990's. I remember being able to ask any character in Morrowind about where could I find some guy, or what he knows about a specific place, what are the latest rumors or what are his political views. In Skyrim NPC's are just plastic toys where you push their tummies and a prerecorded message comes out. Dragon Age has about the same level of depth in terms of side activities.

 

"Get on with the times" is not a good argument when the "new stuff" is inferior in terms of comlpexity and execution.

 

I don't know on what level do you people find "collect 10 shards" engaging. Is it the achievement of doing a difficult task? No, because all you do is follow a quest marker. Are you emotionally invested in those shards? Does it challenge your critical thinking? Is the act of doing it fun and enjoyable? To me it's none of those things. I just stop paying attention, my brain drifts somewhere else and my hands push the keyboard by themselves. It's the opposite of engaging.

 

Bloated =/= richer experience.

[BammBamm]

But big areas filled with pointless busywork with no context is the future of gaming! **** all that roleplaying and making ambiguous decisions based on what kind of character you're trying to play as. It's so 1990's. I remember being able to ask any character in Morrowind about where could I find some guy, or what he knows about a specific place, what rumors flaot around or what are his political views. In Skyrim NPC's are just plastic toys where you push their tummies and a prerecorded message comes out. Dragon Age has about the same level of depth in terms of side activities.

 

"Get on with the times" is not a good argument when the "new stuff" is inferior in terms of comlpexity and execution.

 

I don't know on what level do you people find "collect 10 shards" engaging. Is it the achievement of doing a difficult task? No, because all you do is follow a quest marker. Are you emotionally invested in those shards? Does it challenge your critical thinking? Is the act of doing it fun and enjoyable? To me it's none of those things. I just stop paying attention, my brain drifts somewhere else and my hands push the keyboard by themselves. It's the opposite of engaging.

 

Bloated =/= richer experience.

 

its basically exact the same as collecting 10 nirnroots in skyrim or bear pelts, or wolf pelts, or ogre tooth etc. the shards have at least the reason to unlock the doors in the temple of forbidden oasis

you see, i can distort things till they doesnt have to do anything with reality in skyrim too

[tmp7704]

I don't know on what level do you people find "collect 10 shards" engaging. Is it the achievement of doing a difficult task? No, because all you do is follow a quest marker. Are you emotionally invested in those shards? Does it challenge your critical thinking? Is the act of doing it fun and enjoyable? To me it's none of those things.

Is this how you experience it, a marker in the quest log you follow without any idea why? Well, no wonder it feels dull then, i don't think I'd personally even bother.

The way it played for me was, i found this skull thing in the wilds. It showed a couple shards i picked up out of curiosity. I then got an option to investigate the purpose of these shards. I took it, and it pointed me to desolate area with a temple that was apparently of interest to the faction i happen to be at war with. Turned out the shards are needed to enter and explore that place. So for my character it seemed like a good idea to try and collect these shards from then on, to see what's inside that place her opponents wanted so badly, and to hopefully mess up their plans.

So yeah, it's curiosity, emotional investment and some actual connection to the main plot. Who would've thought?

[Baerdface]

its basically exact the same as collecting 10 nirnroots in skyrim or bear pelts, or wolf pelts, or ogre tooth etc. the shards have at least the reason to unlock the doors in the temple of forbidden oasis

you see, i can distort things till they doesnt have to do anything with reality in skyrim too

 

I don't know if you tried to make a counter argument or tried to reinforce my own argument. 

[Baerdface]

Is this how you experience it, a marker in the quest log you follow without any idea why? Well, no wonder it feels dull then, i don't think I'd personally even bother.

The way it played for me was, i found this skull thing in the wilds. It showed a couple shards i picked up out of curiosity. I then got an option to investigate the purpose of these shards. I took it, and it pointed me to desolate area with a temple that was apparently of interest to the faction i happen to be at war with. Turned out the shards are needed to enter and explore that place. So for my character it seemed like a good idea to try and collect these shards from then on, to see what's inside that place her opponents wanted so badly, and to hopefully mess up their plans.

So yeah, it's curiosity, emotional investment and some actual connection to the main plot. Who would've thought?

 

So you had the same level of enthuusiasm for it when collecting the shards to open all the doors? Good for you.

 

And the only choice being "either do it or don't do it" doesn't really seem like it has a lot of depth to me. It's the basis of all side quests in the game. Only one decision. "Follow quest marker or don't".

[BammBamm]

I don't know if you tried to make a counter argument or tried to reinforce my own argument. 

 

oh i can remember the same kind of quests in morrowind too. the truth is for a gameworld of this size filler content is necessary because nobody could effort to develop such a huge game without it. 

[tmp7704]

So you had the same level of enthuusiasm for it when collecting the shards to open all the doors? Good for you.

I opened the first tier of each and one of the second tier, got pretty decent loot and bonuses from it which made the whole thing seem like it'll be worthwile endeavor in the long run. These shards are not something i go out of my way to collect now, just something i pick up when i see them while doing other more pressing tasks in the area because it doesn't hurt me and there's still curiosity what's behind the last set of doors.
 

And the only choice being "either do it or don't do it" doesn't really seem like it has a lot of depth to me. It's the basis of all side quests in the game. Only one decision. "Follow quest marker or don't".

It's nevertheless still more depth than "do it because you must". The depth comes from exploring the concept of your game character and how they'd react to the situation. You know, that roleplaying thing from the 90's you're sad it's not there anymore.

[Baerdface]

oh i can remember the same kind of quests in morrowind too. the truth is for a gameworld of this size filler content is necessary because nobody could effort to develop such a huge game without it. 

 

Why make such a huge world if they can't fill it up meaningfully?