Aller au contenu

Photo

I hate Wicked Eyes Wicked Hearts


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
235 réponses à ce sujet

#101
King Dragonlord

King Dragonlord
  • Members
  • 513 messages

This was beyond easy for both my Elf Mage and Qunari Mage and I wasn't even really paying attention. I just understand the Dragon Age writing team's thinking:

 

Cryptic = Clever

 

See Morrigan, Flemeth and any other mystery entity. See any of their vague Fauxlosophic musing. 

 

And they basically spell that out for you "don't reveal anything." So you spend a whole evening saying "I don't know. Do I?" and "I don't know. Do you?" And clicking on things and running around till they finally let you leave. 

 

I hated all of it. This isn't politics. This is posturing. Politics at least mixes substance and negotiation with the manipulation and coyness. This was just an evening spent with the biggest shitheads in a nation of shitheads. But its all very clever right? It must be because people were telling me how clever they were and other people were telling me how clever that first group of people were. I wasn't shown any cleverness, but I was told enough about it that it must be true right? 

 

In the end, I made my choice of emperor based on spite. Everyone was telling me how much that Gascard guy sucks. "Oh he's no good at politics. Celene is the way to go." to the point where I felt like Celene was the official "right" choice in the heads of the writers. So I chose him to spite both the writers and the Orlesians. If you're going to force me into this situation, then I'm going to stop taking the roleplaying seriously and make as big a joke of it as I can.


  • mjb203, DaemionMoadrin, schulz100 et 4 autres aiment ceci

#102
abearzi

abearzi
  • Members
  • 212 messages

I believe when they talk about role playing, they mean it in the sense your inquisitor has to "role play" a certain person the court wishes to see, no matter what sort of personality you happen to role play for them. It's dual level "roleplayception" so to speak, with the stakes set so high that your inquisitor has no real choice but to pass their "role play" challenge.

And again, that is fine. So long as it is not the only choice. If it actually felt like the stakes were high, I could get on board, but by the end everyone agrees its completely irrelevant who actually sits the throne. A puppet controlled by a sociopathic elf, a militaristic racist version of Napoleon, or the empty-vessel who is already conveniently on the throne.

 

The stakes are so low you could have just let them kill each other or let the assassin do their own ****, since you have to clean up the mess later anyway. And because the quest only has one way to proceed (i.e., following the only conversation paths which get enough approval) or you just get to redo it (rather than failing the quest and having to proceed in the game without a unified Orlais), the already abysmally low stakes are further undermined. 



#103
Nefla

Nefla
  • Members
  • 7 665 messages

I just wanted to be able to disrupt the party and scandalize everyone, where is my scandalize option?

 

Celine: "How do you find the Winter Palace Inquisitor?"

Lavellan: "It was built on the bones of my people you shemlen ******!"

 

Meanwhile a horrified Josephine lurches over in slow motion and tries to cover your mouth but doesn't make it in time, she ends up falling on a banquet table, the petit fours go flying in every direction, the punch is spilled all over the dance floor, and everyone has to change into flat shoes. :o


  • Shades of Night, tmp7704, DaemionMoadrin et 12 autres aiment ceci

#104
King Dragonlord

King Dragonlord
  • Members
  • 513 messages

And again, that is fine. So long as it is not the only choice. If it actually felt like the stakes were high, I could get on board, but by the end everyone agrees its completely irrelevant who actually sits the throne. A puppet controlled by a sociopathic elf, a militaristic racist version of Napoleon, or the empty-vessel who is already conveniently on the throne.

 

The stakes are so low you could have just let them kill each other or let the assassin do their own ****, since you have to clean up the mess later anyway. And because the quest only has one way to proceed (i.e., following the only conversation paths which get enough approval) or you just get to redo it (rather than failing the quest and having to proceed in the game without a unified Orlais), the already abysmally low stakes are further undermined. 

 

If you left it alone, the implication is that yes the Empress would have died, and then the civil war would have continued because you weren't there to blackmail somebody into stopping and you didn't kill Grand Duchess Florianne. Thus Orlais would be without its ruler and continuing to weaken as opposed to stabilized by the Inquisitor.

 

I can see how my involvement was required but I do agree that it wasn't conveyed terribly well. 



#105
abearzi

abearzi
  • Members
  • 212 messages

If you left it alone, the implication is that yes the Empress would have died, and then the civil war would have continued because you weren't there to blackmail somebody into stopping and you didn't kill Grand Duchess Florianne. Thus Orlais would be without its ruler and continuing to weaken as opposed to stabilized by the Inquisitor.

 

I can see how my involvement was required but I do agree that it wasn't conveyed terribly well. 

 

I know...I was just being deliberately glib. 

 

Its just that the quest undermines its own stakes by explicitly stating it literally doesn't matter who rules Orlais. I do get what was being attempted with the quest, but there is no sense of agency, and no sense of threat or accomplishment since you can only progress a single way and the outcome (since pre laid-out) doesn't matter.


  • Nefla et tesla21 aiment ceci

#106
King Dragonlord

King Dragonlord
  • Members
  • 513 messages

Compare to an actual clever character from Fallout New Vegas. Mr. House.

 

He read the tea leaves about the coming war and began arming Las Vegas. How? He's rich and a computer genius. But he wasn't perfect, there were bugs in the Alpha of his defense system OS, so the drivers on primary weapons didn't work and targeting was off. Thus when the missiles came, a combination of hacking and point defense spared only part of Vegas. 

 

When he recovered, he sent his robots out to scout and became familiar with the factions, recruited some families to run his casinos and supplement his forces (in exchange they get to come in out of the wastes), filled part of Vault 21 with concrete so its inhabitants would have to participate in the New Vegas economy and agreed to an NCR presence on the grounds that the troops had to be allowed to come gamble in the casinos. Their presence gave him cashflow, so he could go searching for the finished version of his OS to upgrade his defense systems. 

 

His plan is not to beat the NCR, he knows he can't do that. His plan is to make sure he's too costly a target*. That means beef up his defense systems as mentioned above, do business with both the Legion and the NCR, and make sure that the Battle for Hoover Dam is not decisive for either side so they continue to be unable to afford to take New Vegas from Mr House. He plans to do that by enlisting help from the Boomers who command their own artillery. Once he gets the fusion plant activated, he even gains the option to blow up Hoover Dam, removing NCR and Legion's reasons for being here. 

 

But he isn't perfect, which is good because that makes him more rounded. Benny is smart enough to see that Mr House has some great plan cooking. He may not be able to come up with amazing plans on his own, but he's smart enough to know that Mr House does and to figure out how to spy on House, ambush a Securitron Robot and get a hacker buddy to reprogram its AI to do accept your commands, then tell it to start decrypting Mr House's communications and steal his ideas for yourself. But Benny isn't perfect either, and his hacker buddy was only able to program the robot to take commands from everybody. Again, believable and rounded. And this set up gives you multiple logical ways of approaching the conflict that emerge naturally from the situation, all of which are supported.

 

How are you involved in this? Well, you were supposed to make that delivery to Mr House. But because Benny is spying on House he found you and shot you so he could get whatever it is you're delivering. So you're tracking him down either to get revenge, or find out what he's up to, or get your package back to finish your delivery because you take your job that seriously. You'll either meet up with House and he'll want to recruit you or you'll track down Benny and stumble across his plans. Or lets say you decide you don't want to face the man who shot you. Well if you get involved in other business in the Mojave, you'll eventually run into the Legion or the NCR who are all over the desert and since they're caught in the middle of this plot, you'll still eventually have a reason to get involved in the main conflict.

 

THAT is how you write this kind of stuff. You give us concrete details built on the foundation of your setting and support logical options rather than contriving a scenario where there's only one way to proceed and it makes sense because just take our word for it, it does.** (and that plan is essentially engage in coy babble and occasionally sneak away to poke around).

 

*As in, if one faction takes New Vegas from Mr House, they'll suffer to many losses and be too overextended to survive retaliation by opposing factions.

 

**Seriously, the blackmail material that is supposed to keep these people in check is amazingly flimsy. Eyewitness testimony from some merc and/or an elvish servant? Against an emperor/empress and the leader of a resistance movement? In Gascard's case, even if people do believe the merc, once Gascard is on the throne what does it matter? He denies it publicly and insiders know he can play dirty which actually strengthens his hand. And Briala? Well there are a half dozen ways she can explain sleeping with the Empress: "I was just trying to get information." or "I was hoping to convince her of our plight" or "You know how these nobles are. They use us for sex whenever they feel like it." And at most she loses a few agents and has to rebuild her resistance group a bit.

 

EDIT: Oh and IIRC, House lured the NCR into discovering Vegas and Hoover Dam because he knew the Legion was coming.


Modifié par King Dragonlord, 17 décembre 2014 - 05:07 .

  • Zveroferma aime ceci

#107
abearzi

abearzi
  • Members
  • 212 messages

Compare to an actual clever character from Fallout New Vegas. Mr. House.

 

...

Great, now I want to play FONV again.


  • Zveroferma et King Dragonlord aiment ceci

#108
King Dragonlord

King Dragonlord
  • Members
  • 513 messages

Great, now I want to play FONV again.

 

I'm sure someone can tell me about better RPGs but right now, in my limited experience its my gold standard. It and KOTOR 2 make me wish everybody else would just hire Obsidian to write their games for them. Then get Valve to do the QA testing. 

 

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, Bioware does a good job with presenting interesting themes and dilemmas and as much as I enjoy the characters in an Obsidian game, I don't care about them as much as I do with Bioware characters. 


Modifié par King Dragonlord, 17 décembre 2014 - 03:25 .


#109
Spooky81

Spooky81
  • Members
  • 266 messages

Did you know FONV was suppose to be the official sequel to Fallout 2?  Van Buren was cancelled then brought back to life when Obsidian was allowed to develop it as Fallout New Vegas.



#110
Spooky81

Spooky81
  • Members
  • 266 messages
BioWare masterfully brought to life the lore of Thedas into Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts.  As already mentioned, it's Orlais and everyone is apart of the game, wether they choose to or not.
 
Alot of BioWare's past titles have had scenario's like this, where you're thrown into the heart of a race, civilization or certain organization's institute and have to play along and go with the flow(ie:disguising as Drow in one of their cities in Underdark, the Sith Academy on Korriban in KOTOR, Kasumi's companion mission in ME2). Love doing these, it's a nice change and break from the usual.
 
I was at first annoyed by losing approval from the countdown, but you should have way more than enough time to explore and still have high approval if you collect enough secrets, coins and don't do something outright dumb.

  • No-one...\o/ et almasy87 aiment ceci

#111
hwlrmnky

hwlrmnky
  • Members
  • 394 messages
Up the arbor. Down the arbor. Up the arbor. Down. Up. Down. Can this be the behavior the designers were trying to foster? I dunno. It worked out but jeez.
  • VilhoDog13 aime ceci

#112
VilhoDog13

VilhoDog13
  • Members
  • 439 messages

I think what I disliked the most was climbing the damn wall.

 

I was so afraid of losing approval that I spent an hour for the first part of the mission not realizing I HAD to climb the wall. It's ok for the crowd to see you scaling the garden, yet god forbid you aren't in anyone's line of vision for a minute. That just broke the whole mission for me.

 

I also couldn't find the other rooms - the one with Varric (if anyone brought him) in it. I think I needed halla for a door, but I couldn't find the door. The whole palace was a confusing mess - don't get me started on the setup where you fight the assassins/venatori.

 

I wasn't particularly fond of the mission. I feel it's one of those brilliant in theory, yet poorly executed plans.


  • Ryzaki, Nefla, King Dragonlord et 2 autres aiment ceci

#113
King Dragonlord

King Dragonlord
  • Members
  • 513 messages

 

BioWare masterfully brought to life the lore of Thedas into Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts.  As already mentioned, it's Orlais and everyone is apart of the game, wether they choose to or not.
 
Alot of BioWare's past titles have had scenario's like this, where you're thrown into the heart of a race, civilization or certain organization's institute and have to play along and go with the flow(ie:disguising as Drow in one of their cities in Underdark, the Sith Academy on Korriban in KOTOR, Kasumi's companion mission in ME2). Love doing these, it's a nice change and break from the usual.
 
I was at first annoyed by losing approval from the countdown, but you should have way more than enough time to explore and still have high approval if you collect enough secrets, coins and don't do something outright dumb.

 

 

See, they should have drawn more inspiration from the drow scenario (not sure which you mean, there were a couple). You can fight sneak or talk your way through that scenario (admittedly fighting is hard but you can do it. I did). Actually if its the one I'm thinking of, I believe you can just kill the dragon who asks you to go into the Drow City in the first place. 

 

Plus, name one thing you learn about Orlais that you didn't already know from earlier in this game or in previous games. Orlais is a nation of peacocks who inexplicably find time to control the greatest empire in Thedas, because shut up they do. 

 

Seriously trying to think here, lets see.

 

-Celene slept with an elf (no surprise there.)

-Celene wasn't supposed to be Empress (kind of interesting) but won the position by "outmaneuvering" Gascard (might have been interesting if we got any meaningful detail on how she did it.) 

-Yet somehow she has no idea about the attempt on her life because she's apparently an idiot savant or suffered brain damage after becoming Empress and lost her mastery of the game (or is that just a plot hole?)

-Gascard is a military man with little patience for politics (yawn)

-Gascard's sister is a cultist and has the proportional leaping power of a radioactive spider. 

-Celene has a thing for the occult. (not really a surprise).

-There's an elvish resistance movement (No! Really? Get out of town.) 

 

Honestly the most rewarding bit of detail came after the quest was over if you chose to have the Duchess's birthday party go as scheduled with her . . . in attendance . . . "The fashion is pine". (I liked that, a brief bit of the spark that used to be more common in their earlier titles, gave me a brief bit of hope)


  • Nefla et tesla21 aiment ceci

#114
Spooky81

Spooky81
  • Members
  • 266 messages

See, they should have drawn more inspiration from the drow scenario (not sure which you mean, there were a couple). You can fight sneak or talk your way through that scenario (admittedly fighting is hard but you can do it. I did). Actually if its the one I'm thinking of, I believe you can just kill the dragon who asks you to go into the Drow City in the first place. 

 

The dragon had something you needed to leave Underdark.  You could kill her and skip most of Underdark, but what's the fun in that  :P.  Also had the option of offering the dragon eggs to the demon in exchange for something or you could beat the drow at their game by accepting Solaufein's to swap the real dragon eggs with a fake, which the demon finds amusing.



#115
herkles

herkles
  • Members
  • 1 902 messages

btw I asked weekes on twitter if we might get more missions like this one, as I rather enjoyed it and this was his response.

 

@herklesz That was @BioMaryKirby, and hopefully we do have more in the future. :)


  • almasy87 aime ceci

#116
King Dragonlord

King Dragonlord
  • Members
  • 513 messages

The dragon had something you needed to leave Underdark.  You could kill her and skip most of Underdark, but what's the fun in that  :P.  Also had the option of offering the dragon eggs to the demon in exchange for something or you could beat the drow at their game by accepting Solaufein's to swap the real dragon eggs with a fake, which the demon finds amusing.

 

See, this reminds me of Honest Hearts and Dead Money from FONV. 

 

Honest Hearts, at ANY time if you decided you'd had enough of the fetch quests, you could go on a killing spree, find the map and leave. I did it once to get it out of my system because I didn't appreciate the bait and switch of the questline (if you've played it, you know what I'm talking about) and then reloaded and played the quest proper. Just knowing you HAVE the option if you want it is enough most of the time. But that doesn't exist here. If it did, I'd probably use it, plow through nobles, escape, and get chewed out by my generals with a smug satisfied grin. Then I'd reload and play the quest proper secure in the knowledge that I could kick these guys asses if it gets intolerable. 

 

Honestly, this would have been a lot better if it was, say, a Senate Chamber* you were talking your way through and not some Orlesian Masquerade Ball. Would have been so much more informative and potentially intriguing.

 

*(preferably in some country other than Orlais because the Orlesians are seven layers of suck in a single dip)



#117
Manki

Manki
  • Members
  • 138 messages

Maybe I'm the minority here.

 

Obviously the amount of approval you have can be greater or less depending on your play style and dialogue choices, however with a reasonable approach, and not really trying to farm favor at all, I was able to clear everything with the exception of 1 room (stupid halla statue on the roof beam) without feeling rushed or like it was restricting. Playing a mostly sarcastic type rogue, I probably went about 50/50 on the conversation options that became available to me.

 

Overall, the system wasn't really that restricting to me personally. I can however see the point of possibly introducing the mechanic earlier, because based on some of the comments, it seems maybe people were just confused about how it worked. Overall it was a nice change of pace in the game, I appreciated the political intrigue involved.

 

It also should be mentioned, I probably got the top 90% best completion (all alive, court loves me, etc.) that you can. Without really rushing and playing a more "completionist" style game play.


  • almasy87 aime ceci

#118
Manki

Manki
  • Members
  • 138 messages

See, they should have drawn more inspiration from the drow scenario (not sure which you mean, there were a couple). You can fight sneak or talk your way through that scenario (admittedly fighting is hard but you can do it. I did). Actually if its the one I'm thinking of, I believe you can just kill the dragon who asks you to go into the Drow City in the first place. 

 

Plus, name one thing you learn about Orlais that you didn't already know from earlier in this game or in previous games. Orlais is a nation of peacocks who inexplicably find time to control the greatest empire in Thedas, because shut up they do. 

 

Seriously trying to think here, lets see.

 

-Celene slept with an elf (no surprise there.)

-Celene wasn't supposed to be Empress (kind of interesting) but won the position by "outmaneuvering" Gascard (might have been interesting if we got any meaningful detail on how she did it.) 

-Yet somehow she has no idea about the attempt on her life because she's apparently an idiot savant or suffered brain damage after becoming Empress and lost her mastery of the game (or is that just a plot hole?)

-Gascard is a military man with little patience for politics (yawn)

-Gascard's sister is a cultist and has the proportional leaping power of a radioactive spider. 

-Celene has a thing for the occult. (not really a surprise).

-There's an elvish resistance movement (No! Really? Get out of town.) 

 

Honestly the most rewarding bit of detail came after the quest was over if you chose to have the Duchess's birthday party go as scheduled with her . . . in attendance . . . "The fashion is pine". (I liked that, a brief bit of the spark that used to be more common in their earlier titles, gave me a brief bit of hope)

 

You missed a couple.

 

-Ferelden Mercenaries (you can use this information later if you find it)

-Each companion you brings adds something slightly different to the lore

-Josephine's Sister

-Gaspard's Dagger (real or planted?)

 

The list goes on...



#119
Taura-Tierno

Taura-Tierno
  • Members
  • 887 messages

I liked the party. I hardly ever noticed that approval dropped, since it dropped so slowly.

A very pleasing change of pace from the rest of the game.


  • almasy87 aime ceci

#120
Das Tentakel

Das Tentakel
  • Members
  • 1 321 messages

I hated all of it. This isn't politics. This is posturing. Politics at least mixes substance and negotiation with the manipulation and coyness. This was just an evening spent with the biggest shitheads in a nation of shitheads. But its all very clever right? It must be because people were telling me how clever they were and other people were telling me how clever that first group of people were. I wasn't shown any cleverness, but I was told enough about it that it must be true right?


Honestly, I hope nobody expected believable politics - or social stuff - from Orlais? I mean, these folks have been set up as ridiculous fops wearing a mix of clown costumes and Venetian carnival rejects speaking with faux-French accents since, oh, forever.

The scene's decent, but not good political stuff. You need a very different set of writers, and a very different setting, for that kind of stuff if your standards are moderately to reasonably high in this regard. I actually think Bio didn't do too badly in depicting the social occasion, the politics are a different matter.


  • luism aime ceci

#121
DaemionMoadrin

DaemionMoadrin
  • Members
  • 5 813 messages

I think the main problem here is that you have to go through with the entire thing. In other games you always had options, you could choose to ignore it or simply murder your way through or use stealth instead. Deus Ex (Human Revolution) comes to mind. You can convince people through conversation, you can use your augs to influence them with pheromones, you can bribe or blackmail them, you can kill them and take what you need off their corpse, you can sneak past them and hack their computer to get the info you need...

 

And here, you are stuck pleasing a decadent court of buffoons, playing their game even if it goes completely against your character. Why can't I ally myself with Gascard and poison Celene? No one would ever need to know and we could cut this affair short. Why do I even have to attend the ball? Can't I just meet the empress and tell her that her life is in danger? There are so many other ways to resolve this problem but we only get one. And if we fail, the game ends. I think that's the part that upsets the most people here.


  • c_cat aime ceci

#122
King Dragonlord

King Dragonlord
  • Members
  • 513 messages

You missed a couple.

 

-Ferelden Mercenaries (you can use this information later if you find it)

-Each companion you brings adds something slightly different to the lore

-Josephine's Sister

-Gaspard's Dagger (real or planted?)

 

The list goes on...

 

This is what counts as lore? Its trivia. At the end of the evening, you have no more lore than you had going in. 

 

The lore you had going in was that Orlais is a bunch of nasty vicious fops in clown pants and masks who think being coy is the height of cleverness. By the end of the evening, all you have are examples of that. Sure if you go poking around you can get some actual lore from books laying around which add codex entries but the plot itself adds no meaningful insight about Orlais. 

 

Though given that its Orlais we're talking about, I'm not sure how much lore I wanted. Fereldan and the Free Marches are interesting places. Orlais in the previous two games was more or less a joke that we now have to take seriously. 



#123
No-one...\o/

No-one...\o/
  • Members
  • 78 messages

 

-Yet somehow she has no idea about the attempt on her life because she's apparently an idiot savant or suffered brain damage after becoming Empress and lost her mastery of the game (or is that just a plot hole?)

You seem to have missed the part where she seduced a guard to get all of Gaspard's attack plans and already knows that he snuck his men into the palace. She had a trap set up for him and he would most likely have failed.

The problem everyone had was, that everyone thought Gaspard to try a coup, but in truth the Duchess was the assassin.

 

same. I am hoping that we can have much more politics and intrigue in the future :D

I'm with you two. I'd play an entire game consisting of "The Game" :D



#124
King Dragonlord

King Dragonlord
  • Members
  • 513 messages

You seem to have missed the part where she seduced a guard to get all of Gaspard's attack plans and already knows that he snuck his men into the palace. She had a trap set up for him and he would most likely have failed.

The problem everyone had was, that everyone thought Gaspard to try a coup, but in truth the Duchess was the assassin.

 

I'm with you two. I'd play an entire game consisting of "The Game" :D

 

Right but how on earth did that happen? How did the Grand Duchess come to be in league with Corypheus of all people without Celene noticing if Celene is so damned good at the game that she was able to game her way to Empress? At the very least, someone who plays politics as well as Celene supposedly does should be getting a seriously skeevy vibe off the Grand Duchess. 

 

She also slipped by Morrigan's notice and its pretty much canon that Morrigan is the most clever person in the history of the universe. You're telling me that Florianne can consort with Corypheus and set up plans involving traps and henchmen and escape routes without either super politically savvy Celene or super occult expert McCleverPants Morrigan noticing? But I guess we're supposed to just accept that without explanation because shut up she does. Also, she can jump around like Spiderman. 


  • Nefla, schulz100 et chrstnmonks aiment ceci

#125
MissMayhem96

MissMayhem96
  • Members
  • 562 messages

I was able to get 100 court approval with my elf my second time playing through the mission. I didn't like how approval counted down in combat, it's not really a mission I look forward to playing, the only scene that I like is the dancing with Florianne and the the Balcony scene with your LI.

 

But the Achievement "Belle of the Ball" B) was worth it.