235 réponses à ce sujet

[dirk5027]

just add this to the "stretch it out as long as possible, so we can brag about how long this game is list"

[The Serge777]

So, I just did Wicked Eyes, Wicked Hearts again, this time with my "hardass" character.  This was the one who was supposed to fail at acquiring enough Court Approval to successful overcome Florianne through non-violent means and had to resort to combat.  And I started out firmly on that path since I was playing a Vashoth who told the woman looking for her ring to find it herself.  Boo-yah, 10 Approval! 

 

Crap went downhill from there (or uphill depending on how you want to look at it)!  She acquired far too many secrets.  She stumbled into a few responses that made perfect sense for the character that were either too diplomatic or too nebulous, and she took Vivienne's advice to try to be a little less clumsy in her actions.  Sure, she spent way too much time searching for stuff (got back as low as 15 at one point) and she told Celene she was going to die, but despite it all, she ended up with 100 Approval... 

 

So, she let Celene die and then beat the hell out of Florianne.

 

In short, it's been my experience playing this quest for the fourth time that it's more difficult for me NOT to earn the requisite approval to take Florianne down diplomatically. Sure as hell didn't expect that...

[Sunbrow]

I would have got on top of table and yelled the empress is going to die tonight...Andraste has foreseen it.  Then walked out.  I went out of my way to crash and burn here and it had no real impact on anything for the final battle...not sure anything does.  I would have loved to drag Varric around and do pull my finger jokes with the guests....ahhh to be a dorf. 

[DarkAmaranth1966]

I agree. I tried to tank it on a toon I didn't like and wanted to end the game. I did it but, only by refusing the dance with Florienne. I find it all too easy, even on a Qunari to get Belle of the Ball and then some. So much in fact that it refuses to drop below 100 even after an hour in the royal wing just goofing off.

[Serelir]

I enjoyed the diplomacy part, but I absolutely hated the timer. I'd much rather do a quest in which I have to sneak around and not be seen than one which requires jumping on barrels, climbing up trellises in front of all the party guests and rushing back to the ballroom like a reverse Cinderella. Since no one at the ball knew me, I could have sent an impostor to the ball pretending to be me while I crawled around the back rooms. How fun it would have been to make the quick switch with my masked doppelgänger!

 

I also hated the outfit and wanted a pretty dress to go along with my man-hair.

[Magdalena11]

The timer takes everything potentially unpleasant about WEWH and amplifies it.  The timere really isn't a big deal, but it adds way too much stress to an area that is already challenging due to lighting and rendering decisions.

 

1.  The quest map and palace walls don't even come close to aligning.  If you're having trouble navigating or seeing if you've searched the area already, don't bother with the map, other than general palace geography, the quest map is nearly useless in the Servants' Quarters and courtyards, where you find many of the halla statues and clues.

 

2.  It's way too dark, as in miserable lighting.  Except for the outdoor areas, if you can see where you're going, there's nothing to find.  If you want loot, be prepared to wander through one identical dark room after another pinging for loot or clues and walking in the general direction of what you want until blocked by furniture or a wall.  The search feature is capable of seeing through stone walls, but  if important documents are on a desk and you're not standing in front of the desk, you'll never know there was even a desk there, let alone papers on it.  I hope they didn't waste any time doing anything special with Halamshiral's decor.  Since you can't see most of the furniture as anything other than a black shape to get around, there's no point in decorating.

 

3.  When you're lost and stuck in a corner in the dark, the companions will move into position to completely block your movement in any direction.  They are unable to be close to you during combat, however, and are probably off around the corner grabbing a smoke.  I didn't think I was doing the game solo....

 

4.  Companion approval points hinge on being able to find the documentation to bring about the desired outcome.  Not a big deal for many companions, but for opinionated jerks like Solas and Vivienne, both of whom are going to be annoyed indeed with me by the end, I need all the points I can find.  Ironically, they are opposite sides of the same coin.

 

5.  All the collection items.  Between the halla statues you do need for clues and loot and the secrets and coins you're encouraged to collect, it's really easy to forget why you were originally running around lost in a panic in the dark.  Usually, by the time I get to Cullen, I just take the option to confront Florianne and let the computer remember what I know, because there's no way I can.  

 

It's just a shame.  WEWH sounded so fun.  I was looking forward to meeting Morrigan and seeing what she's been up to, dabbling in Orlesian politics, and enjoying some pretty scenery.  A bunch of fetch quests in the dark with a clock ticking isn't nearly as fun.

[berelinde]

^^ Try turning up your gamma settings on your Video Options menu. It will lighten the shadowed areas considerably. I have to do that in the interior areas of Promises of Destruction or I get stuck in corners and can't find my way out.

[taglag]

I agree with the op on this one, it is one of the missions I remember from when I last played in december. I found it way to perplexing, and totally out of sorts with everything else I had done.

 

   I wound up using a walkthrough, and had to go step by step to get through it, and get a proper scrore, I prefer to fumble around and finish things, but this one just over welmed me.

 

  I know though many just adore it. I just did not. It's a personal choice thing. I fully understand others liking it.

[Panda]

This is quite old thread already.. but were I only one that got lost during the mission countless times? I had no idea where to go majority of time.

 

Seriously I felt like Zoro in there.

 

 

And court approval kept just dropping while I wandered around... it was nightmarish.

[HeatherWind]

I didn't realize how much i hated this mission until i started losing approval like crazy just for exploring and choosing dialogue options that fit my character, so i restarted. I don't like being punished for exploring, I was excited for this mission it seemed like it would be fun. ButI don't like feeling rushed, and that's exactly what i felt like this quest did, i enjoyed the eaves dropping, the snooping, "The Game" as Leliana puts it. But with the timer it felt like there wasn't any point in even doing it, i really wanted to do all the side quests lol.

I'm hoping my second playthrough will be a better experience since i know what to look for so maybe i will get more time to explore.

^^ THIS. Punished is exactly how I felt too. I wanted to love the zone and explore it, but thanks to that ridiculous timer mechanic I was panicked and rushed through and didn't complete the secrets or Sara's side quest because I kept getting lost, even with using the Prima guide.
Bioware, I'm not afraid of legwork and looking for items (which has been part of EVERY. OTHER. ZONE.) but I dread the thought of ever doing this quest again. I enjoy verbal sparring and playing The Game, but that damned approval timer ruined what would otherwise have been a fantastic zone, and since I didn't have time to look for all the stupid halla statues for fear of losing (Qunari mage -- thanks for the rep hit right out of the gate) I also lost collecting the Orlesian banner and thus couldn't complete that collection quest either.

The better solution would have been to let your Inquisitor stay in the ballroom to schmooze, and periodically switch to your backup party to search -- not unlike the final battle for Denerim where one team went to the Archdemon while team 2 held the gate. Someone please mod this bloody quest and take that stupid timer out of the equation?

[Saphiron123]

Court approval is a shitty timer mechanic. It flips around when talking to people. It drops because of your race. It threatens to kill the mission altogether? It goes down while you're trying to solve the mission???? I'll kill the empress myself just to get this stupid mission over with. Where is that option? I have a bow...

I enjoyed the mission, but court approval was a crap mechanic. I worry given bioware's way of overreacting that they'll take politics completely out next game, the same way they reacted to people wanting to leave the city in da2 by removing cities entirely in dai.

[Octarin]

Some people in another thread complained, so I made a troubleshooting guide about all the quests and sub-quests at the Winter Palace. There are also several milestones during the quest, I will try to post these too.

 

You can find the thread here

 

http://forum.bioware...shooting-lists/

[Magdalena11]

If it was dumb design, it'd be intuitive for you. It clearly isn't though, hence your whining.

Turn your nose up at the Grand Game if you like, shubnabub, but we play for the highest stakes, and to the death. - Leliana

 

Seriously though. Its a court, you're not popular if you're stupid... Try to be a bit more tactical, faster, and smarter... And maybe you won't suck so much.

It's a thread about a problem people are having, and you're the dissenter.  If being unpopular makes you stupid, will you apply your own judgement to yourself?

[Torgette]

This was actually one of my favorite missions in the game, the only thing I didn't like was how everything is tied to an approval meter. I loved missions in older rpg's where you had to talk your way to victory, so this fun in that respect. I even actually enjoyed the timer, but then I also enjoy games like Majora's Mask so maybe i'm weird. Hopefully they do more missions like this in the future, but remove the meter (and timer for the folks who hate it). I'm not a completionist so not finding everything or not having 100 approval didn't bother me too much, but it did bother me that I got railroaded into the ending of the mission and couldn't hand Leliana more secrets because a door was blocked by... a velvet rope in front of a door???

[berelinde]

I expect to be lynched for this, but I actually like WEWH and don't mind the timer. I can ignore it. Part of the reason is that on my very first playthrough, I didn't try to do everything. If I stumbled across a secret, I turned it in to Leliana. If I found a coin, I chucked it in the fountain. I didn't know that you could leave the Royal Apartments after you entered them, so a lot of secrets and coins went unused. I only found 2 halla statues, so I couldn't open any of the doors. Oh well, I said, I'll do all that next time. Somebody will write a walkthrough by then. Well, they did and I did. I didn't find all the halla until my 6th playthrough, or all the secrets until my 8th, or all the coins until my 9th, and I have yet to complete my "Who rules Orlais?" ending collection, but meh. I'll get to it eventually.

 

Well, bully for me, you say, and you aren't wrong. You paid just as much for the game as I did, so you have every right to expect as much entertainment from it.

 

Maybe an explanation would help.

 

Every quest needs a challenge. Elsewhere in the game, the challenge comes in the form of random wildlife, etc. Bears and bandits prowl the Hinterlands. Giants in the Emerald Graves will pummel you into next week. Just about everything in the Emprise du Lion wants to kill you. But WEWH isn't about the combat. There are only about 3 fights in the whole thing. So it needs a different kind of hazard. Another way to get a non-standard game over. Enter court approval.

[Magdalena11]

I don't think there's anything at all wrong with fetch quests, and being able to talk your way out of a bad situation is very satisfying.  I always finish with a court approval at 98 or better, but I can never find the information I need to get the outcome I want because the answer's hidden in a trackless maze in the dark, and I'm never going to be able to think clearly, if at all, with a clock I can hear and see ticking.  I've read about the quest and done it with the book in my lap and intellectually analyzed my reaction until there just isn't anything I haven't thought about.  As soon as I know I'm being timed, any calmness I've been able to talk myself into goes out the window and I switch into a very painful kind of panic.

 

I was just doing Chateau Onterre yesterday, and I thought about how similar the 2 are, and how different.  The same scenery shows up in both places, and both are abysmally lit.  Once the undead start appearing, it's a timer, though without the constant nagging, I don't care.  There are lights that come on so you can eventually see where you're going, and the walls on the map correspond with the walls you can see on the screen.  I love that quest.  The undead are stupidly slow and you can be next to one, do any searching or looting you want, then blow them away spectacularly if you want.  I like using a mage with a strong fire staff and energy barrage.  It's enormously satisfying and you can build a lot of focus during what's really a turkey shoot.  Both are puzzles, but since it's just a little dungeon and not a headline quest, the one at Onterre isn't bogged down with distractions that do little beyond increasing anxiety.  I cleared the chateau and had so much fun blowing my problems away,  I felt good enough to take on the giants in Firewater Garden.  I had a full upgraded focus bar, but wound up not needing it, and I finally figured out that if you isolate and pick off the brontos ahead of time, the giants go down a lot easier.  I wound up running out of inventory at 75 items (I started with 7) before I ran out of desire to be there, unleashed a whole lot of very cathartic mystical energy, and still wound up only needing one health potion, and that was the one Dorian took before I covered him with a barrier.  I even did it in real time because I was in a groove and went with the momentum.  The only emotion I experience during WEWH is a profound desire to be anywhere else and do anything else, to the point where sometimes I just have to turn off the computer and walk away.

 

I know the problem is me, not the game, because other people like it just fine.  I'm just frustrated and disappointed that something I was looking forward to for the story is something I despise because of the false way it makes me feel about my capability.

[Magdalena11]

I expect to be lynched for this, but I actually like WEWH and don't mind the timer. I can ignore it. Part of the reason is that on my very first playthrough, I didn't try to do everything. If I stumbled across a secret, I turned it in to Leliana. If I found a coin, I chucked it in the fountain. I didn't know that you could leave the Royal Apartments after you entered them, so a lot of secrets and coins went unused. I only found 2 halla statues, so I couldn't open any of the doors. Oh well, I said, I'll do all that next time. Somebody will write a walkthrough by then. Well, they did and I did. I didn't find all the halla until my 6th playthrough, or all the secrets until my 8th, or all the coins until my 9th, and I have yet to complete my "Who rules Orlais?" ending collection, but meh. I'll get to it eventually.

 

Well, bully for me, you say, and you aren't wrong. You paid just as much for the game as I did, so you have every right to expect as much entertainment from it.

 

Maybe an explanation would help.

 

Every quest needs a challenge. Elsewhere in the game, the challenge comes in the form of random wildlife, etc. Bears and bandits prowl the Hinterlands. Giants in the Emerald Graves will pummel you into next week. Just about everything in the Emprise du Lion wants to kill you. But WEWH isn't about the combat. There are only about 3 fights in the whole thing. So it needs a different kind of hazard. Another way to get a non-standard game over. Enter court approval.

Fine, but I have to disagree with you on the nature of the challenge.  For me, it's "Do I feel emotionally strong enough to be rushed and bullied by forces I have no control over."  The answer to that question is never anything but no.  If approval or trivial fetch quests were the challenge, overcoming them would feel good.  It doesn't.  I do say the right things, and I find the halla, coins, and secrets.  I even found a balcony on the 2nd floor of the royal wing with a coinpurse on it where court approval goes back up for some reason and you can catch your breath.  The entire time, I'm trying to suppress a rising sense of panic, and when it's finally over, the only thing I feel is grateful that it is.

[HeatherWind]

I don't think there's anything at all wrong with fetch quests, and being able to talk your way out of a bad situation is very satisfying.  I always finish with a court approval at 98 or better, but I can never find the information I need to get the outcome I want because the answer's hidden in a trackless maze in the dark, and I'm never going to be able to think clearly, if at all, with a clock I can hear and see ticking.  I've read about the quest and done it with the book in my lap and intellectually analyzed my reaction until there just isn't anything I haven't thought about.  As soon as I know I'm being timed, any calmness I've been able to talk myself into goes out the window and I switch into a very painful kind of panic.

...The only emotion I experience during WEWH is a profound desire to be anywhere else and do anything else, to the point where sometimes I just have to turn off the computer and walk away.

 

I know the problem is me, not the game, because other people like it just fine.  I'm just frustrated and disappointed that something I was looking forward to for the story is something I despise because of the false way it makes me feel about my capability.

This sums it up beautifully. I had no issue with the verbal bantering for approval (I'm a die hard role player and really enjoy that part of The Game). It was the unnecessary time pressure causing needless anxiety in what would otherwise have been an amazing zone. What's the point of making such a gorgeous area with details that beg to be looked at if you're just going to force the player to run through a dark rat maze in near-blind panic? I'm about to take my current Inquisitor back there, and honestly I've been dreading it because I can't stand that timer. My entire game has ground to a halt and I've put off playing because I actually have to build myself up to deal with the stress of it, and that should not be part of what is otherwise a really fun game. I would sooner roam the Fade wearing only a tabard and a Nerf dagger than deal with that stupid timer. I'm an explorer -- let me explore!

[capn233]

On the whole I like this mission.  Mostly since it is a decent change of pace from the rest of the game.  Personally I wouldn't have thought to compare this with the Fade portion of DAO.  The Fade there was mainly just slogging through zones killing whatever demons in a couple different forms with little dialogue or narrative.  Just go to each zone and clear them out, then kill the last badguy.  And to make matters worse, you had to visit most zones twice if you wanted all of the bonuses.

 

I also am not entirely sure why so many are complaining about the timer or approval in general.  If you have the achievement, there isn't a huge necessity to get 100 approval.  So if you don't want to rush, or don't want to take all the "right" dialogue, you don't have to do so.

[andy6915]

Couldn't you just blast the brightness to full power? Sure, it will look like crap, but at least you can see then. Right?

[HeatherWind]

That's because the court is looking at you, the leader of the inquisition, and not the lowly staff you bring along. If anything, you should have held the floor whilst your party clears the servant's quarters and sweeps the palace for clues. 

 

I thought the same thing after my first play through. A better alternative to the "if you're away 5 seconds lose approval" timer would be to split your party like we did during the battle for Denerim in Origins: Team A (Inquisitor and war table advisors) hold attention with great RP at the ballroom, while Team B (your chosen backup) does the covert exploration, and periodically switch between the two at key points. If that had happened I would have loved this zone so much, instead of leaving my gut in knots stressing over that timer counting down on screen.  What's the point of having your team with you if you can't properly utilize them?

 

And seriously, how did all the nobles even know you were away for 5 seconds? Are you lo-jacked and they're all posting on twitter about you wandering into the library? Nobody cares if you climb the trellis in front of the court, but how dare you disappear for 2 minutes to look at books in a zone you'll never be able to access again to search once you depart! 

So many aspects of this were nice in concept, but sadly didn't work in execution -- namely that timer.

[Magdalena11]

This sums it up beautifully. I had no issue with the verbal bantering for approval (I'm a die hard role player and really enjoy that part of The Game). It was the unnecessary time pressure causing needless anxiety in what would otherwise have been an amazing zone. What's the point of making such a gorgeous area with details that beg to be looked at if you're just going to force the player to run through a dark rat maze in near-blind panic? I'm about to take my current Inquisitor back there, and honestly I've been dreading it because I can't stand that timer. My entire game has ground to a halt and I've put off playing because I actually have to build myself up to deal with the stress of it, and that should not be part of what is otherwise a really fun game. I would sooner roam the Fade wearing only a tabard and a Nerf dagger than deal with that stupid timer. I'm an explorer -- let me explore!

You know what I'm saying.  If it's not too late, I'd suggest doing everything you can beforehand to feel calm and good about yourself, and not try to do any last-minute cramming.  I think that's contributing to my sense of anxiety, and I doubt I'm the only one.  I'm going to treat it like an important, difficult, day-long test, such as the nursing boards or bar exam.  My plan is to do all my preparations and studying and map-memorizing the day before, then on D-day, after ensuring that nothing external is going to be a stressor, just sit down and start playing.  I figure I'll probably still feel lousy afterward, but if my emotional state is healthier before I start, I might not feel as bad.  I have experience acing important tests that have a high failure rate, (as a RN, not a lawyer) and it might be just that I need to look at it differently.

[duckley]

I enjoyed the diplomacy part, but I absolutely hated the timer. I'd much rather do a quest in which I have to sneak around and not be seen than one which requires jumping on barrels, climbing up trellises in front of all the party guests and rushing back to the ballroom like a reverse Cinderella. Since no one at the ball knew me, I could have sent an impostor to the ball pretending to be me while I crawled around the back rooms. How fun it would have been to make the quick switch with my masked doppelgänger!

 

I also hated the outfit and wanted a pretty dress to go along with my man-hair.

Man-hair - too, too funny. 

 

Don't you just love Florentine and how she looks with her man-hair and her pretty dress? Yeesh!

[HeatherWind]

You know what I'm saying.  If it's not too late, I'd suggest doing everything you can beforehand to feel calm and good about yourself, and not try to do any last-minute cramming.  I think that's contributing to my sense of anxiety, and I doubt I'm the only one.  I'm going to treat it like an important, difficult, day-long test, such as the nursing boards or bar exam.  My plan is to do all my preparations and studying and map-memorizing the day before, then on D-day, after ensuring that nothing external is going to be a stressor, just sit down and start playing.  I figure I'll probably still feel lousy afterward, but if my emotional state is healthier before I start, I might not feel as bad.  I have experience acing important tests that have a high failure rate, (as a RN, not a lawyer) and it might be just that I need to look at it differently.

 

First, massive respect to you as an RN. I had a housemate who is a critical care RN in Seattle, and that is not an easy calling. If someone like you who works in a high stress environment can feel anxious about this too, then I don't feel quite so badly about myself for panicking either. 

 

As for the prep work and dedicating a day to deal with this drama, I am totally with you -- that's where I'm at right now. My game has stalled to a halt because I've been dreading going back there and I'm trying to psyche myself up for it. I'd hoped that by this point someone in the mod community would have found a workaround to that bloody timer as they did for the Fade in Origins, but so far I haven't seen anything. If this quest were solely about roleplay and gathering intel without that timer, this could have been my favorite zone in the game, because it's truly beautiful and the *untimed* RP parts are really entertaining. I'm a completionist and it galls me no end knowing I left quests incomplete on my first playthrough because I couldn't deal with the timer while being unfamiliar with the area.

 

With any other game I'd have walked away and found something less detrimental to my blood pressure. But I love this franchise dearly, and that love is the only reason I'll voluntarily put up with this stress (though I'm still praying for a workaround now), because I know better things are eventually coming. I just wish I never had cause to hesitate and resent what should otherwise have been one of the best parts of the game. It's a comfort at least to know I'm not alone in this.

[SofaJockey]

No, it's dumb design. 

 

No it's dumb play.

If you wave your sword about like a sausage you will also die.

If you disregard Josephine's sage advice about the ball, the same thing happens.

Each 'best' answer was clearly the Orlesian one.

 

This quest was a super change of pace, I love it.