100 réponses à ce sujet

[DetcelferVisionary]

As someone who also plays warriors, rogues and mages,  I think this argument should be broadened to the other classes.  It's not just mages who are suffering here.

[TheJiveDJ]

Personally, I want healing and offensive spirit magic back for mages.

[BioWareMod03]

Let's try to move this discussion in a productive direction so the thread can stay open.

[Morroian]

So I guess no one else misses force from DA2, huh? Sure a couple of those made it into the rift spec, but it doesn't really play the same way. I miss being able to slip and slide and toss enemies around like rag dolls.

 

I miss force mage, the spec was great fun.

[Grieving Natashina]

I miss force mage, the spec was great fun.

So handy against the Arishok too, even on Nightmare.

 

Step 1: Cast Gravity Ring

Step 2: He is greatly slowed, so feel free to point and laugh 

Step 3: Cast Rain of Fire and all AOE spells

Step 4: He moves again when the spell wears off, at very low HP

Step 5: Fireball until he's dead

Step 6: Enjoy the cutscene

[Imryll]

It's not only the lack of diversity and the tedium of barrierspam that bother me. It's that the pieces don't fit together. Eight active abilities + cooldowns + elemental resistances (the real reason I think they wanted to limit us to primal damage spells) + inability of mages to use weapons that do more than token damage just don't play nicely together. Your choices are just too limited.

[shadownian]

My thing with mages is, well mages give up alot in order to have diversity.

Not only do with have minimal armor naturally, we also have minimal hit points and minimal strength.

Mages pretty much lack in everything except magical ability.

When you take away the diversity of the mage, it just makes everything you give up to be a mage seem less and less worth the sacrifice.

 

When it comes to the 3 Primal trees in DAI, as one person said an argument could be made that the skill trees offer a range of abilitites from defense to buffs etc not just offense. And thats true, but they are all still Primal. They are all still based off the elements. And im sure im not alone in this but elemental magic just seems boring and overly cliched. Ewww i can throw a fireball, ewww I can make an ice wall. etc. Its been done to death and is typical of mages and magic users games over and even in movies and tv.

Its boring. Thats why the diversity that was DAO was so nice. We never had to touch elemental magic if we didnt want to. And that was nice. It was full of options. Now wether we like it or not we are shoehorned into primal magic in some form. Even if your a mage that has taken a personal oath not to do elemental magic, as a way to protest it being forcd on you, (from a roleplaying stand point) your still stuck with it if you even want to have a staff. Because all our staffs have an elemental force to them as well. Its completely overdone .

 

And as far as one person said, about why limit it to just mages, well for one we had the most taken away. But i do agree the other classes are stripped down as well, save for maybe archer which i think is actually done alot better in this game more so than any other in the series. But to be honest you could give the other classes the ability to have more than one weapon and im sure alot of those players would be happy with just that. Mages again never had that option. We swing sticks...lol. Thats what we do.

 

One other thing i think could be introduced is some actual mage staffs, without elemental magic attached to them. You could call them spirit staffs, or mage staffs, or what have you but instead of a lightning attack or a cold attack it would be more along the lines of say a magic missile or something like that. That way again, some of us who just ave nothing but disdain for elemental magic can have something more our style as well.

[Darkly Tranquil]

And the shapeshifting spec if gone, which is meh in my mind.

Actually, the Shapeshifting spec, with a bit of rejigging, could have really shone in this game. Animal forms could have allowed you to sneak up on enemies by appearing to be a normal beast wandering by, to fast travel without needing a mount, and to adopt several combat roles (tank, DPS). If you have played a Druid in WoW, you can how Shapeshifting can be done right and how similar concepts could have worked nicely in DAI's own open world and given Shapeshifting a real niche of its own.

[Abraham_uk]

I don't mind seeing more Skill Trees

This is an idea I've had in mind. Spoilers are not actual spoilers.

This post would look really long if they weren't there.

 

 

Warrior Class

Spoiler

 

Pick 1 Weapon upon choosing warrior class:

You can switch between primary weapon and secondary weapon just like you could in Dragon Age Origins.

1. 2 Hand (with crossbow as backup weapon)
2. Weapon and Shield (with crossbow as backup weapon
3. Crossbow (with backup 1 handed weapon)

 

Regular Skill Trees:

 

1. Attacking: Revolves around using a diverse array of moves to overwhelm your enemies and deal additional damage.
2. Defending: Revolves around protecting your allies, drawing aggro and being able to take more hits.
3. Channelling: Revolves around regulating your stamina, making your attacks use up less stamina, or using additional stamina to deal extra damage.

 

Pick 1 Specialisation Later On:

 

1. Templar: This specialisation is about weakening your foes, damaging their stamina, and magicka, dispelling both active magical effects and neutralising enchantment runes. This is great against mages but also physical attackers who rely heavily on their special abilities.
    
2. Ash Warrior: You can bring a pet Mabarri Hound into battle and send commands to it. Using Ash Warrior abilities do not consume the Warrior's stamina but instead consume the hound's stamina.
    
3. Reaver: Damaging dealing warrior, who sacrifices defence for greater offence. When health is low, that is when they strike hardest. When surrounded by enemies that is when their damage output and area of effect peaks. In addition the Reaver can strike fear into their enemies, making the task of mass slaughter even easier.
    
4. Juggernaut: This warrior can take a lot more hits than regular warriors. They benefit from additional health and passive health regeneration. Furthermore they gain bonuses to armour rating.
    
5. Spirit Warrior: A fast paced warrior who gains help from fade spirits to buff damage output and durability. However the biggest buffs come in the form of speed. They can sprint incredibly fast for a short period of time. Not even teleporting mages can out run a Spirit Warrior. (Different to Spirit Warriors from DAO).
    
6. Champion: This warrior can inspire and lead a team. When you have the champion on your side, the rest of the party will be performing better than usual. They can benefit from increased damage output, accuracy, greater chance to evade, higher critical chance, higher critical damage as well as faster movement speed.

 

 

 

Rogue Class

Spoiler

 

Pick 1 Weapon Type upon choosing Rogue class:

You can switch between primary weapon and secondary weapon just like you could in Dragon Age Origins.

Rogues can use long bows and short bows.

1. Fencing (with bows as backup)
2. Dual Wielding (with bows ad backup)
3. Archery (with 1 handed weapons as backup)
    

Regular Skill Trees:

 

1. Sabotage: Weaken your foes with poisons, flasks and powders. Also reduce the distance between you and your foes by using a grappling chain.
2. Subterfuge: Stealthy tree, that enables you to sneak around and perform critical hits.
3. Dirty Fighting: Be it going for a low blow to stun your foes, feigning death before performing a surprise attack, or diverting attention to your tank, dirty fighting uses dishonourable tricks to exploit your enemies.

 

Pick 1 Specialisation:

 

1. Assassin: Skilled in getting the best possible critical hits. They can perform mark of death to make enemies vulnerable to all attacks, enter a precision mode to increase rate and damage output of critical hits, perform marksman assassination kills and a deadly shadow strike. Against single targets, no other specialisation from any class can match the damage output of an assassin.
    
2. Illusionist: Using decoys to lure enemies, hallucinogenic smoke to cause enemies to attack one another make the entire party look blurry to reduce odds of enemies hitting the party or using a hypnosis ability to take complete control of an enemy. The Illusionists has a useful bag of tricks commonly used by performance artists to fool enemies and take control of the battle field.
    
3. Tempest: Coating their weapons in alchemical concoctions they can devastate foes with the powers of poison, fire, ice and lightning magic to destroy enemies and exploit elemental weaknesses. Since mages can only pick 1 element, the tempest can potentially out perform the mage class.
    
4. Artificer: Uses traps to make enemies fall over, get stuck in mechanical traps, choke in poisonous gas or even get caught in explosions. The best artificers are the ones who plan ahead, thinking where best to place their traps. With timing and precision, enemies can be overwhelmed and overpowered by a party that clearly has the upper hand.
    
5. Daemon's Hand: Daemon's Hand takes it's origins from a grim tale from Qunari folklore. Qunari talk about deadly agents who used specialise in flanking and stealth. These special assassins are said to have the power of teleportation, the ability to reverse and slow down time. The Daemon's Hand are said to be myths, however Dwarven scholars have found ways to mimic the tactics used in these tales.
    
6. Bard: Like the Champion, bards can buff the party, however they are not as good as Champions here. Their true strength comes in debuffing and distracting foes. Unlike Illusionsts, they can debuff the durability and damage output of enemies by tricking them into lowering their guard. Trained bards can disarm foes and detect weaknesses that can be exploited.

 

Mage Class: 

Spoiler

 

Pick a Weapon:

 

1. Earth Calling: Combine the power of Earth and Fire to deal heavy damage. Shake the ground to stagger foes, hurl flaming stone fists to knock back enemies, petrify and suffocate foes with pyroclastic smoke and unleash infernos to incinerate your enemies.
    
2. Storm Calling: Combine the power of the skies, sending forth tornadoes, use the wind to pull enemies towards you, and send forth tempests that will shock and freeze your foes. Let the wind charge you into opponents, then follow up with an ice blast or stun multiple foes with chain lightning.
    
3. Power of Nature: Unleash swarms of bees, slow down foes in vines, call animals to your aid at any time, use spider webbing to trap foes so spiders can attack them. Make an area of the battlefield vulnerable to explosions with methane gas. Or you can hurl corrosive fluid to deal serious damage to enemy armour. 
    

Regular Trees: 

 

1. Spirit: Protect your party with barriers, or enhance enchantments on weapons or maybe unleash the iconic walking bomb spell.
2. Entropy: Physically weaken your foes both in terms of damage output and durability.
3. Creation: Heal individual party members, remove negative effects, cast haste or slow down enemy advances with glyphs.

 

Pick a Specialisation:

 

1. Spell Sword: With a spirit blade, you gain a diverse array of melee attacks as well as the ability to parry and riposte enemy attacks. To compensate for the fact you're fighting at close range, you gain buffs that reduce damage taken and slightly increase evasion chance.
    
2. Arcane Cleric: Benefit from defensive spells, as well as the ability to heal and revive fallen party members. Clerics unlike Spirit Healers have special abilities and dealing with undead, fade daemons and darkspawn. These special anti-darkspawn/undead/daemon abilities will still deal damage and debuff regular foes so they're not entirely situational.
    
3. Blood Mage: Using their own health as their life source, Blood Mages can deal special area of effect attacks as well as using their power to raise the dead, merge dead bodies to form abominations, sacrifice ally health to heal themselves and inflict heavy bleeding damage over time effects on enemies.
    
4. Shape Shifter: You can shape shift into a stealthy wolf who fights like an assassin, a spider who can trap and consume enemies to restore health, a swarm of bees to overwhelm foes or a bear with lots of hit points. Each shape shifting form has a long cooldown. When using abilities you only use up the manna of that shape shifting form instead of the mage's manna pool. In addition if you take damage in your shape shift form your mage will not take damage and if your shape shifting form runs out of health, you'll revert back to your mage form with your health and manna intact.
    
5. Shadow Mage: A mage who is able to turn invisible and use an arcane dagger. They can teleport and perform spells whilst sneaking. However when "invisible" they are more vulnerable to taking damage from all sources. Also some foes can detect "invisible" foes. That said regardless of whether or not you're seen you'll still get damage bonuses from being "invisible".
    
6. Fade Dancer: These Mages are able to conjure portals across the battlefield. They can bring creatures from the fade onto the battlefield, or send portals to transport themselves and allies from one end of the battlefield to another. They are often described as "wild" and "unpredictable".

So what do you think?

[shadownian]

^ excellent post

[Kantr]

I must try the ultimate 4 mage party in origins. Sounds Op

[saladinbob]

As someone who also plays warriors, rogues and mages,  I think this argument should be broadened to the other classes.  It's not just mages who are suffering here.

 

Then perhaps you could broaden it for us?

[shadownian]

Then perhaps you could broaden it for us?

Main reason I didnt include other classes is because nobody really argues over the idea of giving the other classes more abilities. Nobody would care if the warrior got a new skill tree, or if the other classes got the ability to have 2 weapons they could switch between back like they had in the older games.

There really is no argument there.

 

But say you want the mage to have healing or do something besides just spam fireballs and shields, and people seem to flop their lid...lol

[Weltall]

Well, if you want to create diversity for a class, you kind of need to create it for all the classes. In DA:O, mages had tons of diversity. Rogues had a little and warriors picked their weapon and that was about it. They were pretty effective in their given roles, but once you picked your skill tree, it was pointless to diversify. DA:2 tried to address this by making skill trees that weren't limited to a specific weapon type. Mages got a few smaller abilities to match what little diversity the other classes gained. I think DA:I took it a step further.
Personally, I'd love to see tons of class/weapon options or abilities for all types of play, but it just wasn't in the game. Evidently they have enough trouble to have the limited options they did with all the bugs.

[Zhen Dil Oloth]

Oh yes, but DAI become a cliche with mages using Fire/Ice/Thunder as a lot of RPGs games uses.

DA has lore to diversity, but they don't use it.

It looks like that people (players) want to be restrict and thinking less.

Maybe one day, DA games will be no more RPG with several options, just an action game with pre made characters.

 

Yeah it is sad to see them move away from things that were unique to Dragon Age like the Blood Mage.

 

As for going into a direction with pre-made characters.... that seems to be their goal.

 

They did try to take a first step to move in that direction with DA2 with Hawk.

But thanks to the backlash they got for DA2 they had to backtrack a bit and go back to giving us more options.... or so it seemed. 

[Spirit Keeper]

I'm pretty dissapointed in the lack of skills for every class. It's just more annoying since i've always played a mage and mages in DA:I don't have as much variety as they used to. It's pretty much all AOE damage and i'll also never understand why Knight-Enchanter has a healing focus while Necromancer has Haste...seems like they should be switched.

[Ketten]

Yeah when I first saw the mage skill trees, I was really let down. It was basically all just Primal. What happened to the cool trees, like Entropy and Arcane. And specs like Shapeshifter and Arcane Warrior? That's what made the class honestly amazing to play. Now it's watered down to unspectacular options. Fire Ice and Lighting are not fun and engaging trees to play. Where's the creativity?

[Blue_Shayde]

Mages in DA have become a complete joke since DAO. I can't help but lament the choices I had and the mage I could build.

 

I'm calling it now. Now game, Mages are just a class that uses a staff to hit people. No actual magic.

[Hazegurl]

If DA ever added a Magick Archer Skill tree my life would be complete. lol!

 

I hated Dragon's Dogma but they knew how to put together some awesome mage skills and combat. Especially fighting larger enemies.

 

"Equipped with magick bows, the Magick Archer is a class that weaves sorcery into every shot from their bow, ensuring that they always hit their mark. Magick Archers also blend sorcery into their daggers as well, making them a deadly class up close or from afar...."

 

http://dragonsdogma....i/Magick_Archer

 

Make it happen BW!!

[Taura-Tierno]

It's just a bit sad that magic isn't connected to lore anymore. There are schools of magic - why not use them? I liked that. Made you feel a bit more like a mage and not just a blaster. 

[Lanavis]

Oh yes, but DAI become a cliche with mages using Fire/Ice/Thunder as a lot of RPGs games uses.

DA has lore to diversity, but they don't use it.

It looks like that people (players) want to be restrict and thinking less.

Maybe one day, DA games will be no more RPG with several options, just an action game with pre made characters.

I actually don't think the premade character thing will happen due to DA2's bad reviews and press.

Bioware semi-tried making a premade-character-as-PC game and luckily the backlash forced them to backtrack into allowing ppl to actually choose their character more completely.

[Sartoz]

The reason for such a simplified model is the Multiplayer Component of DAI. That is my view.

 

 

[Warden Majere]

I must try the ultimate 4 mage party in origins. Sounds Op

I actually did a Nightmare run using this party. My Warden (mage), Morrigan, Wynne, and I substituted the last slot with Shale. This effectively made an all-mage party. I have to say, it was one of my most enjoyable playthroughs. While I couldn't open locked chests or doors, I've played through Origins so many times that I didn't feel like I was missing out.

 

On topic though, a tiny part of me can't hope but feel sad at the step away from Origins' mages, it is only a tiny part. I still have Origins, I can still play it anytime. I personally like that Bioware has continued moving forward with the series, rather than making the same game over and over. Origins is my favorite game of all time, but that doesn't mean that I don't love Inquisition. That is because Inquisition isn't it's predecessors, it's its own game. I am currently at the end of my second mage playthrough, and I am really enjoying the mages in this game. Also, If you'd rather not use any elemental magic, go with a "Knight Enchanter/Spirit" build, and always use you're spirit blade.

 

The way I see it, if I want Origins' mages, I will pop into Origins and play my Warden Mage. If you enjoy Origins more, than play that. Praise the games strengths on the Origins forums. I will see you over there, as I still try to frequent the DAO forums myself

 

Cheers guys!!! 

[Warden Majere]

The reason for such a simplified model is the Multiplayer Component of DAI. That is my view.

I can't say that I agree with you here. I don't know if you have played MP yet, but there is very few similarities, thus making it hard to blame one's faults on the other. As some someone (who was ignored) was kind enough to point out earlier, the MP was made by a separate team, and had a separate budget. The skill trees were different than their SP counterparts, making it hard to draw comparisons. Hell, even some of the specializations had different names *cough* Arcane Warrior *cough*. I find it difficult to understand why people are blaming the things they dislike in the SP on the entirely separate MP. Oh well.... 

[samuelkaine]

I can't say that I agree with you here. I don't know if you have played MP yet, but there is very few similarities, thus making it hard to blame one's faults on the other. As some someone (who was ignored) was kind enough to point out earlier, the MP was made by a separate team, and had a separate budget. The skill trees were different than their SP counterparts, making it hard to draw comparisons. Hell, even some of the specializations had different names *cough* Arcane Warrior *cough*. I find it difficult to understand why people are blaming the things they dislike in the SP on the entirely separate MP. Oh well.... 

 

Because it's part of the narrative.

 

"This [change I dislike based upon my own subjective viewpoint] has ruined the the defining element of the series for everyone. This is exactly what I said would happen when Satan EA took over Bioware, and decided to make games for consoles and milk people for DLC and in-game payments. Why can't we go back to DA:O!?!?!?"

 

Never mind that EA took over years before DA:O came out.

Never mind that DA:O was massively constricted in class builds compared to Baldur's Gate.

Never mind that DA:O had Day1 DLC, a DLC vendor in your game camp, and numerous item packs for sale.

And never mind that DA:O sold more copies on consoles than on PC, and that console players have always been a major part of the fan base.

 

No, that doesn't fit the narrative.