936 réponses à ce sujet

[Kinsz]

I remain in favour of the regulation of Mages, especially given what they're capable of if they go off the deep end. I'm also in favour of the Templars being regulated somehow, too, since they've proven to be just as volatile and susceptible to corruption. My stance aligns closely with Vivienne's view, I suppose. 

I agree with you on the Templars , thats why only Vivienne and Cassandra are my options for Divine , they will make sure that the Templars dont get out of line while still having the circles functional.

[ColGali]

The more the games are pushing me towards pro-mage, the more pro-templar I become . But I still think its not a black or white question.

[Addai]

A number of things.

• state clearly what the end goal of the rebellion is. Not FREEDOM!!!!!!! but "an independent body of mages that exist to study magic and help the world better it self. 
• spread propaganda. For instance templars butchering innocent men and women, hire/bribe town criers
• I would help Fereldan rebuild from the blight, sure 10 years have passed but there are still areas that could be rebuilt and magic could help.
• not join tevinter/seek to become a slave-owner; the whole rebellion is based on the idea that mages when free will not be tevinter. We must show them that is true. 
• support one side in the civil war, or try to play both sides. 
• See if the Mortalitasi might be willing to help, likely not but those nevarran death mages might.
• If the templars plan on attacking a town make sure we fight to defend the people of the town. 
• From an order like the Aurors from harry potter to watch for blood magic and Abominations. 
• use espionage and diplomacy to achieve the ends; including working with the divine, assasinating templar agents and other actions to get the goals. 

Thos are just a few of the things I might have done.

Your list really doesn't account for the fact that the templars are on their doorstep and they're being whittled down one by one. With what you know of the templar order, do you really expect they would let a single rebel mage live? They've got a "kill them all" policy even for contained insurrections! And she's burned her bridges with Ferelden, too. Even if it's by her own actions, at that point her choices are fleeing to a place where magic is valued, or death for every one of the mages she's been leading. It's really that simple, and I don't see why people view it as some radical move.
 

With that kind of thinking, I'd be nuking everyone all over the place. One can't just assume the worst to justify something so comically ridiculous and inappropriate. I literally laughed out loud and still do because the pacing was horrible. If your solution is that, perhaps you should just go die somewhere and do everyone a favor. Seriously, anders is retarded. Or his mind is addled from that spirit.
 
I wouldn't be in redcliffe in the first place, but if it were me, I'd friggin leave the evil Sith lords even if it meant more bloodshed. Why jump out the frying pan and into the fire. That solves nothing, but does a good job at making the mages look bad, hence why so many people have switched sides. I've never sided against the mages until this game.

See above, and people are exaggerating what it means to go to Tevinter. Yes they're indentured, but in a place where to have magic in the first place is a stepping stone. And what's behind curtain B is to be genocided.

[Colonelkillabee]

See above, and people are exaggerating what it means to go to Tevinter. Yes they're indentured, but in a place where to have magic in the first place is a stepping stone. And what's behind curtain B is to be genocided.

You don't see all the Dalish clans running off to the Qunari do you? A lot of elves do, but not all of them. And they could have gone to Ferelden and gotten protection absent of the Venatori if that's what they wanted. Their eminent danger in reality is over exaggerated. Sorry but there's always a choice, and they chose to start a war right now that they knew they couldn't win, and then when they couldn't as expected, they chose the slave masters and got fucked. No sympathy, and no over-exaggeration here.

 

"We're not all bad or blood mages, but we're going to run off to the blood mages." Who again by Dorian's own word says they practice this, demons and sacrifices and all, and only pretend not to.

 

I'm not shedding tears for such sorry sacks. The minute they decided to ally with the blood mages is the minute they showed they couldn't be trusted to me. How many more giant flesh monsters can I expect every time some ***** mage starts getting desperate. Conscription was the only smart choice. The decision wasn't radical, it was just incredibly stupid, and I can't stand stupidity. Fiona needs a babysitter, that's what I took from Redcliffe.

[Willowhugger]

 

Your list really doesn't account for the fact that the templars are on their doorstep and they're being whittled down one by one. With what you know of the templar order, do you really expect they would let a single rebel mage live? They've got a "kill them all" policy even for contained insurrections! And she's burned her bridges with Ferelden, too. Even if it's by her own actions, at that point her choices are fleeing to a place where magic is valued, or death for every one of the mages she's been leading. It's really that simple, and I don't see why people view it as some radical move.

 

Except, they're not.

The whole thing exists solely in Fiona's paranoid imagination. The Templars are just as devastated by the Conclave as the Mages. Which is to say they're a shattered remnant of their former selves in no condition to fight anyone. We know they're all becoming red lyrium junkies, too. Killing the mages is the last thing on their mind since they're effectively finished as an order unless the Inquisition saves them.

 

How can this be made WORSE?

Assuming the REAL Fiona is in the one in Val Roy due to Marty McFly shenanigans?

Fiona thinks the TEMPLARS are behind the Breach.

 

Yes, she believes they MURDERED THE MAJORITY OF THEIR OWN ORDER to kill the mages.

 

And people thought Cassandra was crazy?

 

The irony is the Circle of Magi could probably kick the Templars asses in their current state.

We need to take into context that Fiona is flat out WRONG about their military situation and vastly overestimates the Templar's power. Which is probably a sign she's the LAST person who should have been leading a Mage Rebellion.

[Willowhugger]

In fact, Fiona serves as a good illustration of what Mage Fanatics (myself included) think the Templars are about and how this is grossly distorted. The Templars SINCERELY wanted peace.

 

Lord Seeker Lucius didn't but he was bat**** insane.

The rank and file seem to be made up of people who were genuinely good people and if there was a conclave, it seems the Lord Seeker was overruled by the Knight Commander anyway.

[Colonelkillabee]

 
See above, and people are exaggerating what it means to go to Tevinter. Yes they're indentured, but in a place where to have magic in the first place is a stepping stone. And what's behind curtain B is to be genocided.

 

I'll level since I don't like having to argue against you with strangers, and I'm not gonna help gang up on you. Can I understand them wanting to go to a place where mages rule? Yes. Can I accept it though? No, I personally can't accept anyone running to be like the slave master blood mages. And that's just where I stand. You're more forgiving and trusting than I, and that's all there is to it. Or you simply don't see it as something in need of forgiveness, and we're not going to agree on that either.

[Willowhugger]

I'll level since I don't like having to argue against you with strangers, and I'm not gonna help gang up on you. Can I understand them wanting to go to a place where mages rule? Yes. Can I accept it though? No, I personally can't accept anyone running to be like the slave master blood mages. And that's just where I stand. You're more forgiving and trusting than I, and that's all there is to it. Or you simply don't see it as something in need of forgiveness, and we're not going to agree on that either.

You're more forgiving than I am.

 

1. They are giving up on the war and abandoning the cause of freedom to go into exile.

2. They are going into exile in a place that practices slavery.

3. They are going to serve ten years fighting the war of a slave-holding society.

4. They are going to still be at the absolute lowest caste of society.

5. They are going to more or less validate every single person's fears about mages by joining the Empire of the Boogeymen.

 

Of course, I was pleased by the fact that talking with Connor and several of the other mages indicates that the MAJORITY of mages were actually against it.

 

Fiona made the deal on their behalf and they're only going along with it because they're surrounded by Venatori.

I just wish it was more clear Fiona was being Lando Calrissidianed.

[MisterJB]

Said Noble can decide to go back to try and change his nation from all of the stuff that give them a bad name.

Is he? I mean he quasi defends slavery, he never speaks against the magocracy, he is always condescent towards the South. Honestly, I havê yet to discover just what the hell Dorian is rebelling against.

[Willowhugger]

Is he? I mean he quasi defends slavery, he never speaks against the magocracy, he is always condescent towards the South. Honestly, I havê yet to discover just what the hell Dorian is rebelling against.

 

Dorian is kind of an interesting play on the Ugly American in that he thinks of Tevinter as the greatest nation on Earth even as he thinks of the leadership as corrupt and in need of reform.

 

The thing is, he's kind of nonplussed by the fact people outside of Tevinter don't so much want its reform as "to see it burn to the ground so we can dance on the ashes."

 

So he's defensive.

 

I think he was mostly against the idea of Blood Magic and backstabbing as well as the corruption and in-fighting. He's got no problem with mages ruling, though, and he has a point that hereditary birthright by sword-wielders hasn't got anything on hereditary birthright by fireball throwers. The slavery thing sort of blindsides him as he never really imagined it to be a big deal but it's the BIG thing in the South.

[Dean_the_Young]

I've already said he doesn't deserve a pass. But making him more important than he is (or a scapegoat) takes away from the larger issue in Kirkwall which is it's rampant corruption.

 

Corruption is bad?

 

But, like, half of Hawke's story is about enacting or enabling corruption and selective lawlessness. DA2 could be called 'Corruption is Cool' for how much they soft-shaded it.

[Willowhugger]

Corruption is bad?

 

But, like, half of Hawke's story is about enacting or enabling corruption and selective lawlessness. DA2 could be called 'Corruption is Cool' for how much they soft-shaded it.

 

Really?

It seemed like Hawke was the Kirkwall version of Batman.

 

Except with the body count of the Punisher.

[MisterJB]

However, mage sympathy doesn't seem to go down anywhere but Redcliffe.

Connor also states that the Rebels have not turned to Blood Magic,

Fiona says that every city but Redcliff hás closed its doors to the mages. Probably wise considering what happened.

Connor does say "at first". I can't imagine they weren't taught such before joining the Venatori.

[Sir DeLoria]

Not really, always have been, always will be 100% pro Templar.

[Willowhugger]

Fiona says that every city but Redcliff hás closed its doors to the mages. Probably wise considering what happened.

Connor does say "at first". I can't imagine they weren't taught such before joining the Venatori.

 

The fact Fereldan didn't turn its back on the mages is better than they should have expected.

And they repay the kindness by handing over a city to Tevinter.

 

As for the latter, remember, they never join the Venatori. They get used a mind-controlled conscripts and all of them apparently die at Haven since the rest of the game has Red Templars.

[Dean_the_Young]

Anders is only significant in that he was the Tipping Point of the Mage Rebellion. Let's say Hawke actually has a spine and mercifully kills Anders a week before the Chantry goes up... You think Kirkwall would have lasted long in those conditions? Meredith plagued by red lyrium paranoia and Orsino enabling serial killers? Please. Kirkwall was done for way before Anders' stunt in Hightown as senseless and pointless as it was.

 

In all honesty, I think DA2 was heading to a climax that would have resolved Meredith one way or another regardless of Anders. A few of the themes or narratives of the final arc was that Hawke was a clear leading contender to becoming Viscount, which was putting Hawke and Meredith up for a direct confrontation (unless Hawke and Meredith were clearly allied, in which case Hawke was still supplanting Meredith's claims to being the only one willing to confront the corrupt mage threat).

 

Factor in that in the end-game, Meredith was already making direct moves against Hawke's associates (such as rumors of corruption by Aveline, or Cullen's admission of how the Templars were already preparing a strike against Anders, and by the end Meredith and Hawke were already targetting eachother's power bases. Meredith was starting to go after the companions, and let's be honest she could have a lawful reason to go after all of Hawke's companions, while Hawke is by word and deed rallying the nobles and much of the populace behind them, including either the mages (Orisino's activism) or even some of Meredith's own Templars.

 

If Elthina could have kept the peace between Mages and Templars a little longer, the next conflict or crisis would have been Meredith vs. Hawke over the Viscount's throne. Likely to be bloody, even chaotic, but without Elthina's death and thus almost certainly without an annullment. Hawke (being PC) almost certainly would have won that one, and whether you were pro-mage or not Templar corruption would have been clamped down on.

 

Probably.

[Addai]

You don't see all the Dalish clans running off to the Qunari do you? A lot of elves do, but not all of them. And they could have gone to Ferelden and gotten protection absent of the Venatori if that's what they wanted. Their eminent danger in reality is over exaggerated. Sorry but there's always a choice, and they chose to start a war right now that they knew they couldn't win, and then when they couldn't as expected, they chose the slave masters and got fucked. No sympathy, and no over-exaggeration here.

That once again is all second guessing the beginning of the rebellion and not pertinent. Redcliffe was their one last refuge in the south, and it was besieged on all sides. They did agree to the Conclave but after that was destroyed, so was their last hope of survival. You can't use meta-knowledge about the templars, Venatori or the Inquisition to judge what Fiona did. She didn't have access to that insight.
 

I'm not shedding tears for such sorry sacks. The minute they decided to ally with the blood mages is the minute they showed they couldn't be trusted to me. How many more giant flesh monsters can I expect every time some ***** mage starts getting desperate. Conscription was the only smart choice. The decision wasn't radical, it was just incredibly stupid, and I can't stand stupidity. Fiona needs a babysitter, that's what I took from Redcliffe.

Blood magic is just magic, a form which the Chantry uses for its own ends. That's not an argument.

Conscripting people who were fighting for their freedom when you really need them to close the Breach isn't a smart call IMO. I do conscript the templars in my templar game because they're a military order whose chain of command has broken down so they'll respond better to rigid leadership. The rebel mages only need a cause where their power is valued and their right to exist is acknowledged. Ultimately closing the Breach is the first priority, whatever comes after can be decided after that threat is eliminated.
 

We need to take into context that Fiona is flat out WRONG about their military situation and vastly overestimates the Templar's power. Which is probably a sign she's the LAST person who should have been leading a Mage Rebellion.

See above. The templars were also devastated, but in White Andrastian lands are MUCH more likely to come back into power. "Here, put this yoke back on, we promise it'll be better this time"... screw that.

[Dean_the_Young]

Like I said, at least imply that the second Lels is out of the picture the facade falls apart. Then, maybe, I could buy it because of her charisma.

 

Oh, that wouldn't matter much. Lelianna has her spies everywhere, and blood flows even in Chantries if you're on the wrong side of her. The Dear Leader is great, and always listening to the faithful, and she has plenty of faithful to listen for the wrong opinions. She'll make them see, you see.

 

 

The Divine Leliana epilogue doesn't really touch on any medium or long term viability or changing attitudes. It's really just presented as a moment of euphoria- pretty common in the immediate aftermath of a crisis, when everyone is still banded together, but before the reality of compromises or consequences sets in. How far it goes and how long it lasts is a matter of projection on the part of the viewer.

[Willowhugger]

Solas and Vivienne had some great dialogue on the subject.

(paraphrased)

Vivienne: "An Apostate is the reason the Circle system failed. Him and Fiona."

Solas: "HAhahahahahaha. That's so funny you really believe that."

[Willowhugger]

Oh, that wouldn't matter much. Lelianna has her spies everywhere, and blood flows even in Chantries if you're on the wrong side of her. The Dear Leader is great, and always listening to the faithful, and she has plenty of faithful to listen for the wrong opinions. She'll make them see, you see.

 

The Divine Leliana epilogue doesn't really touch on any medium or long term viability or changing attitudes. It's really just presented as a moment of euphoria- pretty common in the immediate aftermath of a crisis, when everyone is still banded together, but before the reality of compromises or consequences sets in. How far it goes and how long it lasts is a matter of projection on the part of the viewer.

 

Of course, Leliana becoming Divine doesn't happen because of an Inquisitor endorsement.

It happens because the Mages are allied with.

Because the Inquisition is Pro-Mage.

And the Herald has been pretty "the Chantry sucks ass."

 

In short, Leliana's power base is because the public sentiment has turned.

[MisterJB]

The fact Fereldan didn't turn its back on the mages is better than they should have expected.
And they repay the kindness by handing over a city to Tevinter.

As for the latter, remember, they never join the Venatori. They get used a mind-controlled conscripts and all of them apparently die at Haven since the rest of the game has Red Templars.

Exactly, I agree.

In the alternate future, you encounter the mages you met in Redcliff beforehand. Two havê joined the Venatori, going so far as to wearing the robes. I assume the same happens in our time line. You can't recognize the rebel mages because they havê become indistinguishable from Tevinter Venatori.

[Dean_the_Young]

Perhaps the biggest flaw of Templars (most of them anyway) is that they hardly ever question leadership and their orders and when they do its usually too late. Many Templars knew something was wrong, some even joined the Inquisition before the whole 'choose a side between mages and Templars'. However the majority remained, perhaps they didn't care as long as they were given Lyrium (and paid?). 

 

I agree. I don't think it's limited to the Templars (the Mages seem to have just as many who profess to disagree with their rebellion leadership, but go along anyway), but noting that the Templars follow bad orders is completely fair.

 

It's to be expected, honestly- it's one of the hallmarks of a disciplined fighting force that you condition and train soldiers to follow orders and do things they normally wouldn't want to. No one 'normally' just goes off to fight deadly threats as part of an organized unit, or maintains arms and equipment to uniform standards, or conduct regular and rigorous training, or follow chains of command. People need to be taught and trained to internalize such things, and generally by someone with authority over them... but when you train people to follow the chain of command to do things they wouldn't like normally, you train them to follow the chain of command whether you like the leadership or not.

 

It's a trade-off, one I'd call inherent, and it's one I think most people expect whenever they themselves are in a position of authority. Given how many BSNers will react if a companion or subordinate 'betrays' them by not doing exactly what they want, how they want it, and show a remarkable intolerance for dissent, 'a tendency to follow orders regardless' is typically only considered a flaw by people when the orders come from someone they disagree with.

[Colonelkillabee]

That once again is all second guessing the beginning of the rebellion and not pertinent. Redcliffe was their one last refuge in the south, and it was besieged on all sides. They did agree to the Conclave but after that was destroyed, so was their last hope of survival. You can't use meta-knowledge about the templars, Venatori or the Inquisition to judge what Fiona did. She didn't have access to that insight.
 
Blood magic is just magic, a form which the Chantry uses for its own ends. That's not an argument.

Conscripting people who were fighting for their freedom when you really need them to close the Breach isn't a smart call IMO. I do conscript the templars in my templar game because they're a military order whose chain of command has broken down so they'll respond better to rigid leadership. The rebel mages only need a cause where their power is valued and their right to exist is acknowledged. Ultimately closing the Breach is the first priority, whatever comes after can be decided after that threat is eliminated.
 
 

Aaaand, you lost me. Blood magic isn't just any magic, power corrupts, and blood magic's been corrupting these idiots throughout the series. Even on a lore standpoint this is wrong, considering where it comes from and what its related to. I don't need meta knowledge to judge her, that was for this conversation. Siding with the Venatori and Tevinter in general was enough, and that's all there is to it.

 

Conscripting them is the only smart choice. They'll fight for me or die. And they showed they'd do anything over die, so.

 

That attitude of "blood magic is just magic" is exactly why I side against the mages out of character as well as in character.

[Willowhugger]

I agree. I don't think it's limited to the Templars (the Mages seem to have just as many who profess to disagree with their rebellion leadership, but go along anyway), but noting that the Templars follow bad orders is completely fair.

 

It's to be expected, honestly- it's one of the hallmarks of a disciplined fighting force that you condition and train soldiers to follow orders and do things they normally wouldn't want to. No one 'normally' just goes off to fight deadly threats as part of an organized unit, or maintains arms and equipment to uniform standards, or conduct regular and rigorous training, or follow chains of command. People need to be taught and trained to internalize such things, and generally by someone with authority over them... but when you train people to follow the chain of command to do things they wouldn't like normally, you train them to follow the chain of command whether you like the leadership or not.

 

It's a trade-off, one I'd call inherent, and it's one I think most people expect whenever they themselves are in a position of authority. Given how many BSNers will react if a companion or subordinate 'betrays' them by not doing exactly what they want, how they want it, and show a remarkable intolerance for dissent, 'a tendency to follow orders regardless' is typically only considered a flaw by people when the orders come from someone they disagree with.

 

I actually give the Templars a pass on this one.

 

The whole situation with the Lord Seeker is like he invited everyone over for pizza and movies.

 

Something they've done dozens of times before.

 

Except, this time, the pizza was laced with cyanide.

 

You don't really expect a guy to, out of seeming nowhere, murder you all by turning you into Umbrella Corporation monsters..

 

I do think Inquisition really emphasized how much lyrium can **** you up, though, and how the Templars on it was always a mistake.

[Willowhugger]

Aaaand, you lost me. Blood magic isn't just any magic, power corrupts, and blood magic's been corrupting these idiots throughout the series. Even on a lore standpoint this is wrong, considering where it comes from and what its related to. I don't need meta knowledge to judge her, that was for this conversation. Siding with the Venatori and Tevinter in general was enough, and that's all there is to it.

 

Conscripting them is the only smart choice. They'll fight for me or die. And they showed they'd do anything over die, so.

 

To be fair, the Tevinter consider blood magic evil too.

It's just it's an open secret.

 

Like graft in Washington.

 

It's also not so much evil as STUPID and dangerous. Last Flight did a nice job illustrating the problem with it. Blood magic was learned from the Old Gods and demons, so OF COURSE it's full of traps and holes.

 

Once I realized this, I resolved to never play a Blood Mage again because it's like playing Blackjack with the Devil only you use his cards.