936 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

As far as Fiona knows, she's made a deal for all of them to pick up and go to Tevinter. They're not talking about setting up a fiefdom in Ferelden. They kick the arl out but I don't think anyone expected it to be permanent. No one knows about Corypheus' invisible hand.

Fiona is not very smart but even she is not that stupid.

You invite a superiorly armed foreign force into your territory or, at least, a portion of it and you know bad things are going to happen.

If you're lucky, you end up with "just" the foreign soldiers taking liberties with the local populace. At worst, you are occupied which is what happened.

[Rieverre]

Thing is, the Circles don't _work_. We've had it abundantly proven to us by the Mage/Templar war. And while I want to agree with Cass idealism and will to reform, I give it three to four generations before we start seeing the old creep back in. And Vivi just wants things to be back to the way they were when she was in power, only with her more in power.

 

And really, it's not just for the mages. The system makes tools out of the templars as well. You never see a retired templar, not really. No Cullen and Alistair, you don't really count. And the only really old templar (Greagoir aside maybe) we see is blind due to lyrium addiction - an addiction that may not even be necessary in the end. Vivi as Divine only gets them back on that leash, with a different master. Cass reforms stuff but I'm not sure how long that's going to last, if at all.

 

In the end, I'm going to be right here patting Hardened!Leliana on the back and lighting the match, thankyou.

[Colonelkillabee]

This along with many things regarding Dumat and the Old Gods in general can be disputed. Way to parrot Chantry propaganda though. I expected better Magneto.

That isn't chantry propaganda, the Tevinter believe that as well. Unless you mean Tevinter chantry. But either way, even they agree.

[Willowhugger]

Thing is, the Circles don't _work_. We've had it abundantly proven to us by the Mage/Templar war. And while I want to agree with Cass idealism and will to reform, I give it three to four generations before we start seeing the old creep back in. And Vivi just wants things to be back to the way they were when she was in power, only with her more in power.

 

And really, it's not just for the mages. The system makes tools out of the templars as well. You never see a retired templar, not really. No Cullen and Alistair, you don't really count. And the only really old templar (Greagoir aside maybe) we see is blind due to lyrium addiction - an addiction that may not even be necessary in the end. Vivi as Divine only gets them back on that leash, with a different master. Cass reforms stuff but I'm not sure how long that's going to last, if at all.

 

In the end, I'm going to be right here patting Hardened!Leliana on the back and lighting the match, thankyou.

 

I hate the Circles but....they kind of did work.

 

Any system which functions for centuries before exploding, by definition, works in my opinion.

 

Monarchy is an oppressive evil system but it works because it's lasted thousands of years.

 

BADLY works but it works.

 

I also think it's interesting to speculate that non-violent reform COULD have worked. I admit, my essay on the subject reached that conclusion so I may be biased in forwarding that view.

I say this as someone who thinks mages should be free but the Chantry should have a BIG STICK for dealing with them and people constantly on the watch out for mages so they can be properly taught.

[Colonelkillabee]

It doesn't even matter where it came from, to be honest.

[EmissaryofLies]

Even Tevinter acknowledges the necessity of the circles; they can work.

[MisterJB]

Thing is, the Circles don't _work_. We've had it abundantly proven to us by the Mage/Templar war. And while I want to agree with Cass idealism and will to reform, I give it three to four generations before we start seeing the old creep back in. And Vivi just wants things to be back to the way they were when she was in power, only with her more in power.

 

And really, it's not just for the mages. The system makes tools out of the templars as well. You never see a retired templar, not really. No Cullen and Alistair, you don't really count. And the only really old templar (Greagoir aside maybe) we see is blind due to lyrium addiction - an addiction that may not even be necessary in the end. Vivi as Divine only gets them back on that leash, with a different master. Cass reforms stuff but I'm not sure how long that's going to last, if at all.

 

In the end, I'm going to be right here patting Hardened!Leliana on the back and lighting the match, thankyou.

 

One war after 900 years of Circle? I'll take that.
 

[Wompoo]

Still 100 percent behind mages and Elves... waiting for all the ancient elves to awaken from their catnap and enslave the humans. Actually bored with the whole Chantry dogma in the game... was so hoping I would get the chance to totally destroy it and the Templars.

[Willowhugger]

Even Tevinter acknowledges the necessity of the circles; they can work.

 

Of course, Tevinter Circles are completely different from Southern Circles too.

They're Circles in the same sense Hogwarts is a Circle.

 

You can leave after your training.

[Colonelkillabee]

One war after 900 years of Circle? I'll take that.
 

Sign me up.

 

No mages in real life, and we can't even pull that off.

[Br3admax]

This along with many things regarding Dumat and the Old Gods in general can be disputed. Way to parrot Chantry propaganda though. I expected better Magneto.

That's not Chantry propaganda. It's something Tevinter itself spread, and that was centuries ago. Most modern scholars believe elves taught the first dreamers. 

[Willowhugger]

Still 100 percent behind mages and Elves... waiting for all the ancient elves to awaken from their catnap and enslave the humans. Actually bored with the whole Chantry dogma in the game... was so hoping I would get the chance to totally destroy it and the Templars.

They were pretty sneaky about it.

It's harder to hate the Chantry and Andastrianism when you're now a Saint of it.

[Willowhugger]

Sign me up.

 

No mages in real life, and we can't even pull that off.

 

In the defense for Mage freedom, it's more like twelve or fifteen wars.

It's just the wars tend to go like this.

"A Circle rebels, everyone dies."

[Colonelkillabee]

They were pretty sneaky about it.

It's harder to hate the Chantry and Andastrianism when you're now a Saint of it.

Indeed, lol. And even when I wasn't, it was still obvious that a circle was required. Demon magnets running around with no training, na. It isn't just a necessity in the south.

[EmissaryofLies]

Of course, Tevinter Circles are completely different from Southern Circles too.

They're Circles in the same sense Hogwarts is a Circle.

 

You can leave after your training.

 

Exactly; they can work.

 

Figuring out the mechanics is a different matter but both sides agree with its necessity.

[Barquiel]

Even Tevinter acknowledges the necessity of the circles; they can work.

The circles are not the problem. I think even the libertarians acknowledge that there needs to be some form of school that is mandatory for all young mages. The templars on the other hand create more problems than they solve.

[Colonelkillabee]

Of course, Tevinter Circles are completely different from Southern Circles too.

They're Circles in the same sense Hogwarts is a Circle.

 

You can leave after your training.

That could never work anywhere but in Tevinter however, because the people on top are mages, and don't have to fear mind control and so on nearly as much as the southerners would.

[Br3admax]

Could be that too. IMO my theory is kind of convoluted, but the root of it is the Forbidden Ones pretending to be something they're not to troll humanity.

I'm not saying that's not possible, as I have no knowledge of that theory. It's as sound as random elves teaching humans how to kill them. 

[Lord_Caledore]

One war after 900 years of Circle? I'll take that.
 

 

Indeed. The Circles weren't perfect, but they were succesful for a very long time.

I've always been moderate on the issue. The concept of the Circle and Templar Order are necessary, but the execution was flawed. DA:I didn't really change my mind on that. I allied with the Templar order and supported Cassandra for Divine, as her views aligned very well with mine.

I've always thought the primary issue with the system before the rebellion was lack of real oversight and an environment that did little to curb or punish abuse when it did happen. We've heard of good and bad Circles - what that tells me is that the idea itself is not flawed, because some Circles make it work very effectively. However, when abuse happened, it was not properly dealt with, which led to serious problems in some Circles like Kirkwall.

 

In the end, I believe it's better to reform the proven but flawed system.

[Willowhugger]

That could never work anywhere but in Tevinter however, because the people on top are mages, and don't have to fear mind control and so on nearly as much as the southerners would.

 

Ironically, it could work in the South if you had investigator mages who could check on people to make sure no mind-control was afoot if there were suspicious decisions.

 

Some sort of inquiry system.

An inquisitive group you could say.

One made of mages and non-mages who could be trusted to be watch things.

[EmissaryofLies]

The circles are not the problem. I think even the libertarians acknowledge that there needs to be some form of school that is mandatory for all young mages. The templars on the other hand create more problems than they solve.

 

It depends upon perspective. 

[Colonelkillabee]

Ironically, it could work in the South if you had investigator mages who could check on people to make sure no mind-control was afoot if there were suspicious decisions.

 

Some sort of inquiry system.

An inquisitive group you could say.

One made of mages and non-mages who could be trusted to be watch things.

That would require trusting only mages, and I wouldn't.

 

I like Vivienne's system just fine. Mages policing mages alongside Templars. That sounds perfect to me.

[Colonelkillabee]

Of course, none of our decisions are going to matter because it won't last, whatever we decide.