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[Colonelkillabee]

Or the it's the Maker's will. But real divine intervention seems to be attributed to some old magic or another. Unless fate.

And if it DID end up working, Solas is going to screw the pooch like he always does and **** everything up, probably.

[Dean_the_Young]

They don't describe that all, they describe it as a messy-messy transition.

Of course, another quality which Leliana gets elected divine is whether Briala is the Empress of Orlais through Gaspard.

 

People fail to realize JUST HOW MUCH credit she has for this.

In real-life, change usually happens at once then people have to struggle with it for decades.

 

Segregation, for example, wasn't gradually phased out. It was outlawed and people had to deal with it.

 

American segregation was outlawed because a majority of political support favored the change, in part because many segregatory norms had been done away well before.

 

American segregation , like many other successful reforms, succeeded to the extent that it did because it already had a broad base of public support before the laws were brought to bare.

[Colonelkillabee]

Again, I'm not sure where you think the problem will come from.

The people can try to resist but these kind of drastic changes happen all the time.

The people are the ones you should fear. This isn't some neutered liberal ***** ass democratic society. The resistance will come from all corners, even in the established chantry.

 

The greatest killer isn't heart disease, it's politics.

[Willowhugger]

American segregation was outlawed because a majority of political support favored the change, in part because many segregatory norms had been done away well before.

 

American segregation , like many other successful reforms, succeeded to the extent that it did because it already had a broad base of public support before the laws were brought to bare.

De-segregation was also enforced with troopers.

And platforms for governors were won on segregationalist platforms.

In short, I tend to believe change happens abruptly and enforced by the law rather than gradually.

But this is a complex issue.

I see hate crimes against elves, alienages getting purged, and revolts happening.

But I also see Leliana's actions having a positive effect for the world.

An Orlesian Captivity Anti-Divine would be cool, though.

[Br3admax]

Segregation began spelling it's end after World War I, not really here put it's a good place to start. That's nearly half a century at the least of racial "acceptance" that finally began to set government policy. Even then, it was not accepted on a large scale and still isn't today. Even if they were comparable, mages are not. It's nowhere near the same. 

[Willowhugger]

The people are the ones you should fear. This isn't some neutered liberal ***** ass democratic society. The resistance will come from all corners, even in the established chantry.

 

The greatest killer isn't heart disease, it's politics.

I do think it'd be cool if it only really worked in a few places.

Maybe poor Leliana forced to take refuge in Fereldan. The Orlais electing their own fake Divine.

:-)

That won't happen, though, given the wide variety of storytelling they'd need to do.

[Willowhugger]

Segregation began spelling it's end after World War I, not really here put it's a good place to start. That's nearly half a century at the least of racial "acceptance" that finally began to set government policy. Even then, it was not accepted on a large scale and still isn't today. Even if they were comparable, mages are not. It's nowhere near the same. 

Also, the Mages have been gradually working away at their reputation as baby-eating monsters for 900 years.

 

It's stated by Wynne the Fifth Blight won the Mages massive acceptance.

Well, in the endings they're not all dead.

 

All the other Blights helped their reps too.

[herkles]

If anyone remembers in origins. one of the choices at the end* is to appoint shanni, or another elf IIRC, Yet still after such a drastic move their are riots, shanni in one of them was said to be killed, but in all cases there is riots because humans don't like it. they have the support of the monarchy, and yet riots happen. Yet Lelianna can make this never happen almost overnight when she becomes divine? 

 

 

 

*yes I know not cannon,

[Colonelkillabee]

Also, the Mages have been gradually working away at their reputation as baby-eating monsters for 900 years.

 

It's stated by Wynne the Fifth Blight won the Mages massive acceptance.

Well, in the endings they're not all dead.

 

All the other Blights helped their reps too.

Pretty sure that Kirkwall, Fiona and the Breach probably set them back like, 899.999 years, lol. At least in my game they helped seal it though. Even if with mine they didn't have a choice.

[Willowhugger]

If anyone remembers in origins. one of the choices at the end* is to appoint shanni, or another elf IIRC, Yet still after such a drastic move their are riots, shanni in one of them was said to be killed, but in all cases there is riots because humans don't like it. they have the support of the monarchy, and yet riots happen. Yet Lelianna can make this never happen almost overnight when she becomes divine? 

 

*yes I know not cannon,

 

People say overnight. I'm not understanding that.

 

It's also been fifteen years since then too.

[Br3admax]

Also, the Mages have been gradually working away at their reputation as baby-eating monsters for 900 years.

No, they really haven't. In fact, people are more afraid of magic than they have ever been. At least since the height of the Imperium.

 

 

 

It's stated by Wynne the Fifth Blight won the Mages massive acceptance.

Well, in the endings they're not all dead.

No it doesn't, no she didn't, and that's only the mages of one country. A backwater country at that. 

 

 

All the other Blights helped their reps too.

Not really. 

[EmissaryofLies]

I do think it'd be cool if it only really worked in a few places.

Maybe poor Leliana forced to take refuge in Fereldan. The Orlais electing their own fake Divine.

:-)

That won't happen, though, given the wide variety of storytelling they'd need to do.

 

That's probably the most realistically optimistic outcome; it indeed would be pretty cool.

[Willowhugger]

Pretty sure that Kirkwall, Fiona and the Breach probably set them back like, 899.999 years back, lol. At least in my game they helped seal it though. Even if with mine they didn't have a choice.

The Mages get off lucky either way.

No one blames them for the Breach because Corypheus arises pretty soon.

Also, no one is really so stupid as to think the mages and Templars will kill THEMSELVES.

 

Well, no one but Fiona who thinks the Templars are that idiotic.

If the Inquisition sides with the Templars, Vivienne's murderous Loyalists will be the only surviving mages.

Which I hated not being able to call her out on.

"You sided with the Templars? You PSYCHOPATH."

[Dean_the_Young]

But yes, I think of Leliana's Divineship as only happening with:

 

1. The Mages as allies.

2. The Inquisitor endorsing her.

3. The Templars are, by nature, destroyed with 1#.

4. The Seekers are gone anyway.

5. Briala is the secret puppet master of Orlais.

 

Alistair is also King of Fereldan or Anora and the latter is sympathetic to elves herself (one of her few redeeming qualities).

 

So, there's a lot of political capital in this scenario.

 

It's not like Leliana gets elected without most of these.

Otherwise, Cassandra is.

 

A.K.A. "Queen Let's Go Back To Doing the Same S*** We Were Doing Before but BETTER."

 

What you described is less 'Leliana has political capital' and more 'Leliana's political opponents have been destoryed.' It may seem similar, but on a cultural level it is quite different. Leliana's political opponents were both widely supported and often popular before the crisis- her closest allies (and beneficiaries) were not. Not only were they popular, they were generally considered legitimate.

 

When you have a lack of popular, legitimate opponents, it is certainly easy to make great changes to policy- but policy doesn't change attitudes the same way it changes laws. Those people who made those popular, legitimate opponents who no longer exist popular are still going to have their views- they just have no one to put them behind, which means disatisfaction rather than support by default for Leliana.

 

 

Leliana's reforms will only outlast her if they prove popular. Otherwise what she can do, another can do just as easily... and if she confuses not having viable opponents with changing people's minds, she's going to have a bumpy ride no matter how many people she assassinates or politically disagraces with her spy network.

[Willowhugger]

 

Not really.

See Dragon Age: Asunder.

Also, there's no indications mages are more feared now than ever.

 

Vivienne says so but everything she says is biased and a lot is flat-out wrong.

[Willowhugger]

What you described is less 'Leliana has political capital' and more 'Leliana's political opponents have been destoryed.' It may seem similar, but on a cultural level it is quite different. Leliana's political opponents were both widely supported and often popular before the crisis- her closest allies (and beneficiaries) were not. Not only were they popular, they were generally considered legitimate.

 

When you have a lack of popular, legitimate opponents, it is certainly easy to make great changes to policy- but policy doesn't change attitudes the same way it changes laws. Those people who made those popular, legitimate opponents who no longer exist popular are still going to have their views- they just have no one to put them behind, which means disatisfaction rather than support by default for Leliana.

 

 

Leliana's reforms will only outlast her if they prove popular. Otherwise what she can do, another can do just as easily... and if she confuses not having viable opponents with changing people's minds, she's going to have a bumpy ride no matter how many people she assassinates or politically disagraces with her spy network.

 

True.

I actually agree with this.

It will take a massive amount of fire-putting out by the Inquisition and poor Josephine working the War Table constantly to work things out. Even then, they'd need someone smarter than Fiona and her paranoid conspiracy theories to save the rep of mages.

We'd need Wynne to be doing healing everywhere to win Peasant Approval.

 

If Briala really wanted to save the elves, then she'd have them conscripted to join the Orlaisian military. That would do massive gains as thousands of Orlaisians would get direct exposure to elves as people.

 

It's worked in many countries.

 

Gaspard would even be behind it.

Edit:

I admit, I think "softened Leliana" shouldn't exist as an epilogue. "Reform with knives" should be the only ending.

[Colonelkillabee]

And can we talk about how BS that spy network of hers is. Really, how the hell does anyone set up something so far reaching. Had a character like that in an RP, and they only did that with the help of a Daedric Lord. What's Bioware's excuse for such Mary Sue?

[Dean_the_Young]

De-segregation was also enforced with troopers.

And platforms for governors were won on segregationalist platforms.

In short, I tend to believe change happens abruptly and enforced by the law rather than gradually.

 

Your belief, however historically illiterate, is noted.

 

But this is a complex issue.

I see hate crimes against elves, alienages getting purged, and revolts happening.

But I also see Leliana's actions having a positive effect for the world.

An Orlesian Captivity Anti-Divine would be cool, though.

 

Of course it's a complex issue. That is why reckless reformationists who focus on changing rules over opinions get lots of people hurt without changing what is considered legitimate or not.

[Br3admax]

See Dragon Age: Asunder.

I have. Never said. 

Also, there's no indications mages are more feared now than ever.

Except for all the mage hate seen in game, and the fact that nearly every mundane is afraid of magic, which is what caused the Breach. They blame all of that on mages, and to a similar extent, incompetent Templars. 

 

 

Vivienne says so but everything she says is biased and a lot is flat-out wrong.

Not really. Vivienne has certainly had a lot more correct assumptions than what you're posting. 

[Colonelkillabee]

Gradual change is the only change that has ever proven to last. If anyone thinks the segregation ban came about suddenly, they're wrong because they don't know the setup. If anyone thinks that this killed racism suddenly, they're wrong. Because the ****'s still here, lol.

[Willowhugger]

And can we talk about how BS that spy network of hers is. Really, how the hell does anyone set up something so far reaching. Had a character like that in an RP, and they only did that with the help of a Daedric Lord. What's Bioware's excuse for such Mary Sue?

 

To be fair, isn't it straight-up the Chantry's spy network?

Leliana just hands it over to you?

[Colonelkillabee]

To be fair, isn't it straight-up the Chantry's spy network?

Leliana just hands it over to you?

It's still her spy network set up with her Bard skills apparently. They made it pretty clear that Leliana runs that donkey show.

[Willowhugger]

Gradual change is the only change that has ever proven to last. If anyone thinks the segregation ban came about suddenly, they're wrong because they don't know the setup. If anyone thinks that this killed racism suddenly, they're wrong. Because the ****'s still here, lol.

 

I know exactly what happened and I think the ban wasn't sudden at all but the change was.

The desire for Mage freedom and elven rights has been there a long time.

It's just not been given an opportunity to flourish.

 

 

Except for all the mage hate seen in game, and the fact that nearly every mundane is afraid of magic, which is what caused the Breach. They blame all of that on mages, and to a similar extent, incompetent Templars.

 

Clearly, you played a different game than Dragon Age: Inquisition.

At least from what I've been playing.

 

The mages seem less hated by far than in DA2.

[Dean_the_Young]

See Dragon Age: Asunder.

Also, there's no indications mages are more feared now than ever.

 

Vivienne says so but everything she says is biased and a lot is flat-out wrong.

 

Biased? No more so than any advocate. Flat-out wrong? Very rarely. Mostly in her mockeries.

 

Vivienne is a woman of merciless truths and cynicism. Uncomfortable, but not ill-informed.

[Willowhugger]

It's still her spy network set up with her Bard skills apparently. They made it pretty clear that Leliana runs that donkey show.

I thought the Left Hand of the Divine was always a thing.

Leliana just got called to lead it.

Like appointing her head of an existing organization.

I could be dead wrong, though.