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[Colonelkillabee]

It makes perfect sense to me to side against the people causing trouble for your people from the inside. Can't say I'd actually raise flames against them, but I sure wouldn't go with them either. You dumb bitches are on your own.

[Colonelkillabee]

Now if there was actual chance of winning, that'd be different. They wouldn't have been so divided if there was.

[Willowhugger]

It makes perfect sense to me to side against the people causing trouble for your people from the inside. Can't say I'd actually raise flames against them, but I sure wouldn't go with them either. You dumb bitches are on your own.

It does, however, make it a bit less of a decision.

 

Your choice is to either fight with the Templars against your own kind on the belief they'll not immediately make you Tranquil after or fight a hopeless war against all of Thedas.

I admit, I'm more sympathetic to Val Royeaux mage who said, "screw this, I'm out of here." than was probably intended.

 

And the problem is Vivienne is very smart about some things but very blind about others.

The Chantry is in ruins and the Templars are controlled by madmen.

 

You can help put it back together but her entire plan has failed.

As stated, her greatest fear has come to pass.

"Irrelevance."

[EmissaryofLies]

Vivienne's solution was to murder her fellow mages.

 

Vivienne's mages are renegades.

 

The price of their freedom was to ally with the Templars against the Mages.

Which is just BS because the Loyalists agreed to abide by whatever vote the conclave reached.

"You fight your fellow mages?"

"WHY OF COURSE, Darling. The price of loyalty to the Chantry is to show your support against the rebellion."

Which was like for me:

"The Inquisition Greatly Disapproves."

 

A vote steeped with skullduggery and murder? 

 

You say fellow mages as if they're still under the same blanket; they not only rebelled but they betrayed White Thedas. 

[Adanu]

No. I solidly believe the mages should have the chance to find solutions to their problems without the baggage of Tevinter culture and without being jailed yet again because they're guilty by nature.

 

If you listen to Cole, Templars are basically husks of their former selves and remain so even after passing through the addiction. I'd like to see if we can find a way for mages to live without forcing non-mages to do that to themselves.

 

The status quo was terrible for all involved, and Vivienne only wants the circles restores because that was her power base, so I don't trust her at all. She advocates The Game, that's enough for me to not trust her at all.

[Willowhugger]

Now if there was actual chance of winning, that'd be different. They wouldn't have been so divided if there was.

Media kind of ruins people's perceptions of war.

It depends on what sort of accord would have been reached at the Conclave.

 

They might have "won" if they had terms acceptable to most mages.

What were the Templars and Mages both willing to give?

If only Josephine were there with her Solar Exalted Social Fu!

[herkles]

I always thought the dalish mages were mainly traded between clans as alliances and to help encourage the spread of knowledge. The clans have to have politics with themselves IMO.

 

I have yet to hear any realistic alternative to Fiona's decision.

I listed some before

 

• siding with one side of the orlaisian civil war to gain supporters among one of the factions, could attempt to play off both sides
• see if other nations wish for magical aid, the Anderfels could use more mages to fight back the darkspawn. What of Rivain and the seers? what of seeing if the Mortalitasi might have some arrangement that they might be willing to make
• state what the end goals of the rebellion are besides 'freedom'
• spread propaganda of the rebellion in our favor/making the templars look bad
• Help Fereldan finish its rebuilding from the 5th blight
• if templars were to attack, fight to defend the people from them. this would score major points as the mages look like heroes and helps ease tensions between mundanes and mages
• Help out mundanes with tasks in various communities. Crestwood is being asulted by undead, why not try and defend it? what about helping out with the sick and injured?
• Same thing but for the nobles.

[Colonelkillabee]

It does, however, make it a bit less of a decision.

Simply not declaring war on all of non mage thedas, especially after Kirkwall, is also a choice. Saying no to Fiona is another. There were decisions to be made, but people would rather ignore that and play into the victim mage card when the idea is that the mages aren't as innocent as they'd like you to believe.

[Addai]

If they have enough strenght to place one of the most defensible castles in Ferelden under their control and envict the Arl, then obviously it's a force.
 
As for realistic alternatives, joining Vivienne's faction of mages who happen to be mages who remained loyal and; wonder of wonders, weren't all killed; is always an option.
 
Another alternative would be allowing the Ferelden army to actually do their duty. Since Alistair and Anora placed them under the crown's protection and if Templars were indeed coming to attack Redcliff (and they weren't) which happens to be Ferelden territory, then it becomes the crown's duty to fight your enemies for you.
They could have even helped Teagan's forces hold off these hypothetical Templars until Alistair arrived thus earning massive Approval Ranting.
Instead, invite the one country in Thedas everyone hates thus proving the Templars and Chantry were right all along and force Alistair and Anora to bring their army down on your heads instead.

Joining "Vivienne's faction" is like putting your head on the chopping block. Here Mr. Templar, let me help you with that, wouldn't want you to strain yourself.

I know Vivienne secretly believes she's going to save the mages her own way, but she's collaborating with the jailers. You can't honestly expect anyone to trust her.

As for the arl, we don't hear about any armed conflict that I'm aware. Alexius just changed the locks on the door. Ferelden is in pretty bad shape considering no one is even trying to intervene in the fighting except for a heretical Chantry force from Orlais.

[Willowhugger]

A vote steeped with skullduggery and murder? 

 

You say fellow mages as if they're still under the same blanket; they not only rebelled but they betrayed White Thedas. 

 

Hell, the Divine was Pro-Mage.

 

It does illustrate the limitations of said body that even mid-game, when the Red Templars are eating people, a lot of people are reacting at the idea of the Templars being bad guys as if Luke Skywalker and Captain America were suddenly killing babies.

 

Everyone was on their side, it seems but King Alistair and Leliana.

 

Which goes to show how Corypheus has destroyed a once-proud name completely.

[raging_monkey]

A vote steeped with skullduggery and murder? 
 
You say fellow mages as if they're still under the same blanket; they not only rebelled but they betrayed White Thedas.

well white thedas sux we need black thedas

[Willowhugger]

Simply not declaring war on all of non mage thedas, especially after Kirkwall, is also a choice. Saying no to Fiona is another. There were decisions to be made, but people would rather ignore that and play into the victim mage card when the idea is that the mages aren't as innocent as they'd like you to believe.

 

They didn't declare War on Thedas.

 

They just walked out.

 

The war was declared on them.

 

No one else was fighting the mages BUT the Templars.

 

Which is probably why the Mages lasted as long as they did.

Admittedly, if the Orlais Civil War didn't happen, Orlais' army would have wiped out Fiona's rebellion overnight.

[Colonelkillabee]

They didn't declare War on Thedas.

 

They just walked out.

 

The war was declared on them.

 

No one else was fighting the mages BUT the Templars.

 

Which is probably why the Mages lasted as long as they did.

Admittedly, if the Orlais Civil War didn't happen, Orlais' army would have wiped out Fiona's rebellion overnight.

Not quite. I don't have the exact quote, but Fiona mentions that she knew exactly what she was doing, as did those that decided finally after the third vote to separate to leave.

 

And really, only the templars fighting the mages just makes that "They were so desperate at redcliffe" thing sound even more bs.

[Willowhugger]

Joining "Vivienne's faction" is like putting your head on the chopping block. Here Mr. Templar, let me help you with that, wouldn't want you to strain yourself.

I know Vivienne secretly believes she's going to save the mages her own way, but she's collaborating with the jailers. You can't honestly expect anyone to trust her.

It's kind of funny but you buy a lot of what Vivienne is selling because she's so intelligent and formidable.

But the thing is, all of her influence is with the Empress who has no power over Justinia.

 

And Vivienne has no influence over either Lord Seekers because both were mage-hating religious fanatics.

 

In short, she really had no influence or political capital whatsoever in the war.

No WONDER she joined the Inquisition.

[Willowhugger]

Not quite. I don't have the exact quote, but Fiona mentions that she knew exactly what she was doing, as did those that decided finally after the third vote to separate to leave.

 

And really, only the templars fighting the mages just makes that "They were so desperate at redcliffe" thing sound even more bs.

 

Again, Fiona thinks the Templars are behind the Breach.

The Templars.

 

Who do not have magic.

 

....

 

Blood magic controlling her mind would have been better.

[Barquiel]

I always thought the dalish mages were mainly traded between clans as alliances and to help encourage the spread of knowledge. The clans have to have politics with themselves IMO.
 
I listed some before

• siding with one side of the orlaisian civil war to gain supporters among one of the factions, could attempt to play off both sides
• see if other nations wish for magical aid, the Anderfels could use more mages to fight back the darkspawn. What of Rivain and the seers? what of seeing if the Mortalitasi might have some arrangement that they might be willing to make
• state what the end goals of the rebellion are besides 'freedom'
• spread propaganda of the rebellion in our favor/making the templars look bad
• Help Fereldan finish its rebuilding from the 5th blight
• if templars were to attack, fight to defend the people from them. this would score major points as the mages look like heroes and helps ease tensions between mundanes and mages
• Help out mundanes with tasks in various communities. Crestwood is being asulted by undead, why not try and defend it? what about helping out with the sick and injured?
• Same thing but for the nobles.

Who says Fiona didn't try most of these things (I remember unlocking some mage propaganda pamphlet for example). We only know how the war started (Lambert attacked and murdered mages)...and how it ends (after the conclave has thrown all factions into chaos). It also doesn't help that Fiona barely has any dialogue.

[Colonelkillabee]

While I don't particularly dislike Vivienne (quite the opposite in fact) it's pretty clear that her "hidden agenda" is to reestablish the status-quo with her at the top. It's also pretty telling that her biggest fear is "irrelevance". 

 

And like many people could disagree with Solas and have an amicable if not respectful relationship with him this was what happened with my character and Vivienne. Her views were way too conservative to be thought of as anything but self-serving.

Selfishness doesn't matter a great deal if it's beneficial, which to me her views were. She knew enough not to truly trust the templars, and then she puts mages in charge alongside them. As you know by now, but still worth saying, she's not as ass kissy or selfish as people think. She's simply smart and a realist.

 

She also actually supports Cassandra as Divine until you say otherwise.

[EmissaryofLies]

Who says Fiona didn't try most of these things (I remember unlocking some mage pamphlet for example). We only know how the war started (Lambert attacked and murdered mages)...and how it ends (after the conclave throwed all factions into chaos). It also doesn't help that Fiona barely has any dialogue.

 

In between "We had no choice" and making other excuses, it's pretty damning.

 

I had such high hopes for her too.

[Sir DeLoria]

You have always been a heretic? Good to know!

And you've always been a heathen infidel

[Lintton]

I was pro mage in Origins, and stayed for half of DA2 until making Hawks pro-templar, Anders/Justice pissed me off that much even before he blew up the chantry.

In DA:I. My inquisitor was pro mage, shocking a good chunk of the party when she welcomed them as allies. She needed mages, and mages she got. While Vivienne brought up an interesting point that even Dalish clans have their rules about a limited number of mages in a clan. Athame Lavellan doesn't give much of a damn about Vivienne's thoughts on her own culture.

The problem with the Mage/templar conflict is that the trust of the two institutions has been broken. Like communism, what was idealistic and good on paper was corrupted by the realities on the ground, the politics of fear, as well as denizens of the fade. And when denizens of the fade can begin to influence members in both institutions, the worth of the templar order can be brought into further question.

And I don't think anyone backing mage freedom is saying the mages should go uneducated or go bonkers without consequence. Even when asked, I said that this was their chance at it, and if things get out of control, then we can talk about limitations, for their sake and for the sake of others.

[Addai]

While I don't particularly dislike Vivienne (quite the opposite in fact) it's pretty clear that her "hidden agenda" is to reestablish the status-quo with her at the top. It's also pretty telling that her biggest fear is "irrelevance". 
 
And like many people could disagree with Solas and have an amicable if not respectful relationship with him this was what happened with my character and Vivienne. Her views were way too conservative to be thought of as anything but self-serving.

Cole has a banter with her where he mirrors her thoughts as "I'm not like the others, I'll protect you, if the templars come for you I'll..." That's what I meant that she believes she can saves mages her own way. It's Irving all over again, and we see how that worked out.

[MisterJB]

Joining "Vivienne's faction" is like putting your head on the chopping block. Here Mr. Templar, let me help you with that, wouldn't want you to strain yourself.

I know Vivienne secretly believes she's going to save the mages her own way, but she's collaborating with the jailers. You can't honestly expect anyone to trust her.

As for the arl, we don't hear about any armed conflict that I'm aware. Alexius just changed the locks on the door. Ferelden is in pretty bad shape considering no one is even trying to intervene in the fighting except for a heretical Chantry force from Orlais.

Did I not just point out that Vivienne's mages weren't killed precisely because they remained loyal?

So, Vivienne works with the Chantry and nobility and spares her mages. Fiona first manages to sell her mages to Tevinter and then ends up being verbally manhandled by her own son and daugther in law with her mages being expelled from Ferelden or ending up as slaves to a thousand year old darkspawn/magister who commited the very sin that the Chantry uses to justify the Circle. Her only salvation is if a PC comes along.

So, who should the mages trust again?

 

 

Also, of course Teagan didn't just abandon his land if he could have hold on to it. And afterwards, the Tevinters weren't ran out of town by guards or angry villagers meaning they had a force strong enough to hold Redcliff.

Which they did. Fiona was sheltered by Ferelden and then she just gave a portion of it to Tevinter. 

As for intervention, Alistair and Anora were clearly on their way with an army, as this video shows.