936 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Right, a Magíster, given acess to Ferelden, would just come in, take the mages and leave without causing any trouble. Fiona isn't stupid enough to believe that.

I really don't know where you get this idea. A small group of magisters can hold a fiefdom in a backwater of Thedas, and they would even want to do this because...

How did it work out for the Arishok?
 

She had to have known what inviting Tevinter into Ferelden would entail.
Also, Alexius holds Redcliff in all games. That is precisely what he doing at the beginning of DAI. Holding Redcliff. He took it, now he's holding it.

He's only present until you finish your mage or templar quest. That's from the time of the Conclave until a short time later.

You are being disingenuous on two fronts.
First of all, I presented another option which would simply be "Let the Crown do its jobs and protect the realm if the Templars were really about to attack, which they weren't."
Second, no one said "surrendering to the Templars", I said "join Vivienne" which means to remain loyal to the Chantry to whom the Templars were not even beholden to at that point.
Vivienne's mages were not executed. Do you deny that?
 
However, there wouldn't even be any issue with surrendering to the Templars because, unlike Tevinter, they are not butchers.
I just received a War Table mission where Templars surrounded a group of mages and offered them the chance to surrender. A few tried to and the other mages nearly killed them.

Vivienne IS the templars. You're asking the rebel mages to go over to the people who could kill them on a good day, using religious terminology to construe this as a righteous thing to do. The whole idea that the templars are going to suddently turn tolerant and indulgent after they've won the war is insane. The fact that not every templar slaughters every mage who comes across their path doesn't mean it isn't a reasonable expectation given their history. So yes, in that situation, I'm going to trust the ones who actually believe mages are people.

[Han Shot First]

I think Casssandra has good ideas.

 

Give the lions a little more room to roam, but lets not let them run the zoo. 

[Dean_the_Young]

In Haven, you can talk to Vivienne about it and she says the price for the Circle Mages remaining free was joining the war against the Renegades.

 

She also talks about how they fought in self-defense- and makes no claim about allying with the renegade Templars.

 

You can exaggerate what she said all you want, but it doesn't make your claims true.

[Colonelkillabee]

In Haven, you can talk to Vivienne about it and she says the price for the Circle Mages remaining free was joining the war against the Renegades.

Was it joining or was it "officially supporting"? Because I never heard a thing about her or her mages actually fighting anyone.

[Colonelkillabee]

Vivienne IS the templars.

There is nothing saying she or any of her mages actually worked as Templars. I have yet to see evidence of this. All she did was not rebel.

[Dean_the_Young]

He's only present until you finish your mage or templar quest. That's from the time of the Conclave until a hort time later.
Vivienne IS the templars. You're asking the rebel mages to go over to the people who could kill them on a good day, using religious terminology to construe this as a righteous thing to do. The whole idea that the templars are going to suddently turn tolerant and indulgent after they've won the war is insane. The fact that not every templar slaughters every mage who comes across their path doesn't mean it isn't a reasonable expectation given their history. So yes, in that situation, I'm going to trust the ones who actually believe mages are people.

 

That's so myopic I'm not even sure where I'd begin... were I interested in arguing against something so hyperbolic.

[Sports72Xtrm]

I'm not ignoring it.

I fully believe if Alexius didn't get the mages, Corypheus would have wiped them out with his armies.

And if you don't save the templars they become Cory's armies. Fact is, to single out the mages alone for bad behavior when every faction was manipulated is unjust. What does Cassandra say? "They will stand in the fire and complain that it is hot."

[Willowhugger]

 

Vivienne IS the templars. You're asking the rebel mages to go over to the people who could kill them on a good day, using religious terminology to construe this as a righteous thing to do. The whole idea that the templars are going to suddently turn tolerant and indulgent after they've won the war is insane. The fact that not every templar slaughters every mage who comes across their path doesn't mean it isn't a reasonable expectation given their history. So yes, in that situation, I'm going to trust the ones who actually believe mages are people.

In Vivienne's defense, she's just in deep denial at how much the situation has changed. Being a Loyalist means she's been granted power and prestige and freedom above other mages so she thinks you just have to do that.

The idea the Templars and Mages have changed the rules is something she can't deal with.

She's about politics, not war.

 

And it's killing her.

[Willowhugger]

She also talks about how they fought in self-defense- and makes no claim about allying with the renegade Templars.

 

You can exaggerate what she said all you want, but it doesn't make your claims true.

I welcome someone to post the actual dialogue.

I am confident this is not exaggeration.

[MisterJB]

I really don't know where you get this idea. A small group of magisters can hold a fiefdom in a backwater of Thedas, and they would even want to do this because...

How did it work out for the Arishok?

He's only present until you finish your mage or templar quest. That's from the time of the Conclave until a hort time later.

Ok, where's your evidence that it's "a small group"?

A small group couldn't have taken Redcliff.

A small group couldn't have even commanded the ships that it would take to carry hundreds of mages from Ferelden to Tevinter.

Or are you suggesting they're going to walk? Because that still wouldn't change anything. You'd need enough provisions to last both ways, soldiers to protect them, etc.

 

Also, at which point "We're just going to deliver a piece of Ferelden territory to a foreign power by evicting its proper ruler but it's just for a little while" became somehow acceptable?

 

More to come.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Where the hell was Vivienne when the Breach started? If she's so concerned about peace with the templars why wasn't she at the conclave? Oh that's right, she wasn't there and only poked her head out to throw the Inquisitor a party when it was safe and the Inquisition began being a big shot. The loyalists mages act like they are being persecuted by the rebellion when before Redcliffe, the rebel mages denounced anyone who would use their magic against innocents and Fiona herself has an alibi of being brainwashed or time magic manipulated.

[Willowhugger]

Ok, where's your evidence that it's "a small group"?

A small group couldn't have taken Redcliff.

A small group couldn't have even commanded the ships that it would take to carry hundreds of mages from Ferelden to Tevinter.

Or are you suggesting they're going to walk? Because that still wouldn't change anything. You'd need enough provisions to last both ways, soldiers to protect them, etc.

 

Also, at which point "We're just going to deliver a piece of Ferelden territory to a foreign power by evicting its proper ruler but it's just for a little while" became somehow acceptable?

 

More to come.

 

I think it's a relatively small group.

 

After all, Alexius doesn't need to actually take them to Tevinter and, in fact, has no intention of doing so.

They're Venatori, after all, not Tevinter.

 

Alexius is not negotiating for the Imperium.

He's just making up stuff to get them to go along with him. He's like the Congressmen from Metal Gear Revengeance. This is a rogue operation.

Only with less nanites.

[Dean_the_Young]

And if you don't save the templars they become Cory's armies. Fact is, to single out the mages alone for bad behavior when every faction was manipulated is unjust. What does Cassandra say? "They will stand in the fire and complain that it is hot."

 

The mages aren't singled out for bad behavior- just the nature of their bad behavior. The Templars were deliberately misled by their own leaders who were knowingly in league with the enemy, and were tricked by figures they had reason to trust. Fiona was simply incompetent, and had no reason to trust Alexius or reason to believe him.

 

To say there were both manipulated ignore the differences in how they were misled, and to equate their bad behavior ignores in the differences and contexts of their bad behavior and the ways they could have challenged it.

[Colonelkillabee]

snip

 

At this "mages are people" thing, no one disputes that. Vivienne certainly doesn't dispute that. She simply understands that magic IS dangerous, even without the whole Demon magnet thing, and the rebels were completely incompetent and stupid when they helped to rise fears in the chantry about them after they were just attacked in kirkwall.

 

There is no evidence vivienne acted as a templar. The mages sided with Tevinter, and even if that isn't a betrayal to you, turning over the land Ferelden let you take residence in to Tevinter CERTAINLY is.

 

Mages are people, but unfortunately, people do stupid ****. Them being people is tragic, but the reality is caution must be taken, and they need to realize they can't just do whatever the **** they want and play the victim card later. When Alistair, ALISTAIR of all people gets fed up, you know enough was certainly enough.

[Dean_the_Young]

I welcome someone to post the actual dialogue.

I am confident this is not exaggeration.

 

I would welcome your citation of how Vivienne murders mages and fought battles against them on behalf of the Templars.

 

No, really. Please, support your claims.

[Sports72Xtrm]

The mages aren't singled out for bad behavior- just the nature of their bad behavior. The Templars were deliberately misled by their own leaders who were knowingly in league with the enemy, and were tricked by figures they had reason to trust. Fiona was simply incompetent, and had no reason to trust Alexius or reason to believe him.

 

To say there were both manipulated ignore the differences in how they were misled, and to equate their bad behavior ignores in the differences and contexts of their bad behavior and the ways they could have challenged it.

The mages were also misled. Brain washed, back to the future magic, changed the course of time, political subterfuge. The mages were more misled than the templars. And a fiona did come to the Inquisitor to offer an alliance with the Inquisition. Alexius changed history to make her forget. Or are we ignoring these circumstances of entrapment?

[raging_monkey]

The mages were also misled. Brain washed, back to the future magic, changed the course of time, political subterfuge. The mages were more misled than the templars. And a fiona did come to the Inquisitor to offer an alliance with the Inquisition. Alexius changed history to make her forget. Or are we ignoring these circumstances of entrapment?

they have to ignore to kerp tradition

[MisterJB]

Vivienne IS the templars. You're asking the rebel mages to go over to the people who could kill them on a good day, using religious terminology to construe this as a righteous thing to do. The whole idea that the templars are going to suddently turn tolerant and indulgent after they've won the war is insane. The fact that not every templar slaughters every mage who comes across their path doesn't mean it isn't a reasonable expectation given their history. So yes, in that situation, I'm going to trust the ones who actually believe mages are people.

Were I a mage, I sure wouldn't place my life is in your hands.

First and foremost, Vivienne is not the Templars. There is not even any indication she has had contact with Templars beyond the few that remained with the Chantry ever since the rebellion happened.

 

Second, you do understand that Tevinter's mages do not stand in solidarity with each other. They, in fact, do not look kindly upon anything that might compete with them for power.

Therefore, by joining Tevinter, you're trying to make your way into a society where the infrastructure is already very well extablished and it does not include nearly every Southern mage. Where the ideals of the people are entirely different from yours. Where you will be at the utmost bottom of society with nothing to fall back on. Where they will use the Southern mages however they please and won't care for things like colleges or fraternities. The Magisters may think you are people. That doesn't mean they give a damn about you and yours, tough.

 

And this is safer than staying in your homeland where you can make appeals to be law and ethics; where the culture has already adapted to have a place for you, etc.

[SgtSteel91]

People say Fiona should have let the Fereldan Monarchy handle any Templar attack but I could definitely believe that Alexius convinced her that the Mages were going to be blamed for the Divine's death and that the Monarchy would turn against her.

[Dean_the_Young]

The mages were also misled. Brain washed, back to the future magic, changed the course of time, political subterfuge. The mages were more misled than the templars. And a fiona did come to the Inquisitor to offer an alliance with the Inquisition. Alexius changed history to make her forget. Or are we ignoring these circumstances of entrapment?

 

Mages were only brainwashed after they sold themselves into slavery and departed Redcliffe after launching a coup there- not before. I do not, as a rule, blame people for things done after mental compulsion, but their actions in Redcliffe and before were not.

 

The mages faced an 'entrapment' of their own creation- their choice of rebellion, their policies of how to follow through, their unwarranted fears of imminent demise, their acknowledged leader's decision to betray the very ideoligical foundation of their rebellion by trading freedom for slavery, their acceptance of the coup of Redliffe, their ambivalence of the massacre of the tranquil, and their willingness to simply stay in that situation that they claimed to dislike despite opportunities to flee and depart with other forces (Teagan, the Inquisitor's own visit).

 

 

Alexius's use of time magic, his lack of honesty- these are irrelevant to what the mages faced, and chose to do when faced. Time magic did not create a do or die moment for the mages. His dishonesty is even less relevant: mages, by their nature as vulnurable to demonic temptations, can be expected to be competent at identifying suspect offers and not trusting by faith.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Not everything in Tevinter is bad. Maevaris, a magister mind you, did not sell out Alistair or Varric to another magister on grounds of not wanting to go back on her word. That's honor right there. Dorian came down specifically to stop Cory because as he says, it's his duty to not leave a terrible Tevinter legacy. Is that not any different than any other mage trying to change to terrible preconceptions among the populace in the south. Feynriel was a nobody from kirkwall who managed to gain a magister as a mentor. The mage rebellion just had the bad luck of being deliberately messed with by Alexius, a venatori agent.

[Dean_the_Young]

People say Fiona should have let the Fereldan Monarchy handle any Templar attack but I could definitely believe that Alexius convinced her that the Mages were going to be blamed for the Divine's death and that the Monarchy would turn against her.

 

That would make her gullible, not justified.

 

Alexius wants to convince her that selling her people into slavery is desirable. Would anyone competent expect him to suggest otherwise? To tell her that, hey, no big deal, the Monarchy won't turn on you, you have no pressing need for enslaving yourself to my benefit?

[Colonelkillabee]

A venatori agent that wasn't denounced by tevinter until it was beneficial to them. The Tevinter pretend like they're not just as bad as (X tevinter that did X) but it's a ruse. Dorian says as much himself.