That would make her gullible, not justified.
Not to you. I understand why Fiona made her decision, even if I don't agree with the. But I forgive her for a moment of weakness and believe that the consequences were humiliating enough for her to be a better leader.
And she does become a better leader after allying with the Mages. At the end of my game, mages had unprecedented acceptance with their College of Enchanters.
Hell, my Inquisitor even got to ask "Is there ANYTHING you like about Tevinter? Seems like all you have to say is negative things."
At best, Dorian says, "It's not ALL bad. But...."
Mages were only brainwashed after they sold themselves into slavery and departed Redcliffe after launching a coup there- not before. I do not, as a rule, blame people for things done after mental compulsion, but their actions in Redcliffe and before were not.
The mages faced an 'entrapment' of their own creation- their choice of rebellion, their policies of how to follow through, their unwarranted fears of imminent demise, their acknowledged leader's decision to betray the very ideoligical foundation of their rebellion by trading freedom for slavery, their acceptance of the coup of Redliffe, their ambivalence of the massacre of the tranquil, and their willingness to simply stay in that situation that they claimed to dislike despite opportunities to flee and depart with other forces (Teagan, the Inquisitor's own visit).
Alexius's use of time magic, his lack of honesty- these are irrelevant to what the mages faced, and chose to do when faced. Time magic did not create a do or die moment for the mages. His dishonesty is even less relevant: mages, by their nature as vulnurable to demonic temptations, can be expected to be competent at identifying suspect offers and not trusting by faith.
Well the entire mage rebellion was on the precipice of being annihilated after their best and brightest were destroyed at the Conclave, and Fiona did come to the Inquisitor for help at Val Royeax. They were in a do or die situation and Tevinter offered them a way out. The templars took no pity and chased them to the hinterlands to destroy them all and unlike mundanes, they cannot refill their ranks so easily. Add to the time magic manipulation and tevinter agents to alter their circumstances to make sure they were set in a path to take Alexius' deal and they were more manipulated than the templars.
More than I can say for the templars in Therinfall. Was Ser Barris aware they were using Red Lyrium? The answer is yes. He said it himself, red lyrium is a tool and could be made to serve was his justification. The templars don't even have ignorance to to justify their claims of manipulation. They purposely ignored the tale of Kirkwall's rebellion and how Meredith's red lyrium use drove her mad. Varric even wrote a book about it. Yet they get a free pass why? Because Barris' heroic actions afterwards somehow give templars a better reputation in the Bsn. But his actions define him only and not the templars as a whole.
Who here is giving the Templars a free pass? I must have missed that part in the 8 pages dedicated to mages and separating Vivienne from the Templars, all of which came up today alone.
Not to you.
It shouldn't be to anyone who can spot the weaknesses in the Magister's argument and rational. He doesn't even provide an indication of how he or Tevinter could supposedly protect them if there was a Templar threat.
I understand why Fiona made her decision, even if I don't agree with the. But I forgive her for a moment of weakness and believe that the consequences were humiliating enough for her to be a better leader.
One of the primary arguments of the Circle system is that mages, when faced with a moment weakness, will abandon their morals for short-term advantage. That they can't be trusted to not make desperate deals.
The primary counter-argument to this charge was, peshaw, the mages can totally be trusted not to resort to desperate measures, and that they can only prove this if allowed to outside of the Circle system.
Fiona was outside of the Circles with the chance to prove the her and the rebellion's convictions. She and the mages following her promptly shat on them. The only reason she didn't make a deal with demons was because a devil approached her first.
And she does become a better leader after allying with the Mages. At the end of my game, mages had unprecedented acceptance with their College of Enchanters.
That really doesn't have anything to do with Fiona as a leader, considering that every major position of the mages after selling themselves into slavery at Redcliffe was made by other people. The Inquisitor, the Chantry... the mages followed someone else's directions, and benefited from it.
Ironically, the mage independence narrative has just about everyone to thank for making it possible other than the mage collective itself.
Nah I was always pretty pro-circle.
Moderation and all that. It's why I love that Cass tends to be my divine.
say what you like about Divine leliana but no matter who you choose, mages or templars, she keeps unity in the chantry and peace among the thedas populace. vivienne and cassandra's success in their endeavors are dependent on their approval with the Inquisitor, meaning they are dependent the Inquisition's support.
She's been spoon fed success and love from the developers since the beginning so I'm not surprised, impressed, nor do I care. That honey pie ending is bs and I'm not indulging in it.
say what you like about Divine leliana but no matter who you choose, mages or templars, she keeps unity in the chantry and peace among the thedas populace. vivienne and cassandra's success in their endeavors are dependent on their approval with the Inquisitor, meaning they are dependent the Inquisition's support.
That sounds like an argument against making Leliana Divine to me
Well the entire mage rebellion was on the precipice of being annihilated after their best and brightest were destroyed at the Conclave, and Fiona did come to the Inquisitor for help at Val Royeax.
The entire mage rebellion being on the precipice of annihalation was an forseeable outcome before the rebellion even began. There were no surprises to that, and there are no pardons for easily predictable consequences of your actions.
They were in a do or die situation and Tevinter offered them a way out.
They weren't, and they didn't.
There was no Templar army marching on Redcliffe that could take the city by storm, and Tevinter offered no protection that would protect them from any army that could do so.
The only meaningful military advantage Alexius offered to them was the seizure of the castle itself... which would not have protected them against a prolonged siege, could have been provided by Teagan, and came at the cost of all Ferelden support and a separate army on the march against them.
The templars took no pity and chased them to the hinterlands to destroy them all and unlike mundanes, they cannot refill their ranks so easily. Add to the time magic manipulation and tevinter agents to alter their circumstances to make sure they were set in a path to take Alexius' deal and they were more manipulated than the templars.
You listed a series of consequences for 'losing a war your started.' That's not manipulation- that's consequence.
More than I can say for the templars in Therinfall. Was Ser Barris aware they were using Red Lyrium? The answer is yes. He said it himself, red lyrium is a tool and could be made to serve was his justification. The templars don't even have ignorance to to justify their claims of manipulation. They purposely ignored the tale of Kirkwall's rebellion and how Meredith's red lyrium use drove her mad. Varric even wrote a book about it. Yet they get a free pass why? Because Barris' heroic actions afterwards somehow give templars a better reputation in the Bsn. But his actions define him only and not the templars as a whole.
Templars don't get a pass. Your entire argument fails on that poor assumption.
They can, are, and do get condemned for rationalizing the use of Red Lyrium, despite their defense that is frequently applied to mages and magic as well. Their misjudgement of the dangers of it does not excuse it- ignorance only mitigates the mind control element (which Meredith and Varric and all other material was unaware of, and could not reasonably be assumed).
That sounds like an argument against making Leliana Divine to me
Not a big a fan of non coerced cooperation?
Not a big a fan of non coerced cooperation?
Nah I'm just a big fan of power, puppets and having people rely on me =P
Nah I'm just a big fan of power, puppets and having people rely on me =P
I doubt Cassandra and viv see it that way. If you don't support their agenda they'd fight you to the death. Leliana maybe is more stalwart to the Inquisition.
I know I've said it before, and I'm saying it again.
The underlings of both sides got duped and misled. Some say that the templar subordinates have more justification by virtue of being tricked by their leaders, but I say this is unequivocally false. Not them being duped, but the part where they have more justification than the mages.
Leading up to either quest, we have mages in Redcliff, 3/4 of them in fact denounce Tevinter and want to get away, practically begging the Inquisition to save them. Just today while doing my Cadash playthrough, I heard Connor debating with one of the Tevinter agents and outright dismiss him saying that Tevinter doesn't know what they're talking about. Lysas seems barely out of apprenticeship and is scared out of his mind, hoping beyond hope that the Inquisition will free them. That tranquil in the tavern talks about how many non-mages and most of the tranquil were evicted, along with anyone who could have resisted Alexius. We know from the locked door near Connor that the Tranquil were actually used to make the ocularum in secret. Then there was the mage who was in the tavern who was happy in the Circle but felt staying with Vivienne's group or the group outside the town would be a sure death sentence because the templars don't care about the details at present.
Once the Tevinter came, Fiona's idiocy, or being slightly nudged with blood magic the way Avernus did, or whatever the case is, ruined things for the rank and file of most mages. And we know later in the game that those who didn't escape and fall in line were killed, just like the templars. Or were outright brainwashed.
On the Tevinter side, templars have choices as well. That Grand Cleric we see in Val Royeaux, if we talk to her after she gets decked across the face, tells us that there are some templars who remained with the Chantry. We have Lysette and her templar friends in the Inquisition, feeling it is better to protect the people rather than go rogue, fight amongst themselves and make things worse for everyone. And then the recruits in Therinfall ARE taking Red Lyrium, and there is evidence to support that it isn't good for them. Changing behaviors among the upper ranks, Varic's tales of the Champion and the truth of what happened to Meredith three years earlier, and they can see the madness that is their leaders.
If they left or questioned their orders, they were dealt with, just like the mages.
But the one thing the templars have against them that the mages do not. They swore an oath, and each and every single one of them that left the Chantry has broken that oath knowingly. Whether they were just following orders, were intimidated by their superiors, or whatnot, it was a conscious decision each and every one of them made, whereas many mages had the war forced on them when the templars rebelled. The Human Inquisitor mage outright says it in the summary.
I find both sides rank and file getting the shaft thanks to the decisions of their leaders. Lysas said it today when I said "you sound like you have doubts" while speaking with him about whether or not the Inquisition can help. "They all blame mages. Why call it a mage rebellon when the templars are the ones rebelling? Their crime is worse since they swore an oath and we did not, our leaders forced us into this," or something along those lines.
Now, with that said, Barris is a really cool templar, and probably my favorite in the whole series. When he joins the Inquisition, he is the very epitome of the ideal templar. He's honorable, he cares about the mages, he cares about the common people, he questioned his orders in Val Royeaux and in the templar mission before it became apparent that templars loyal to the principles on which they were founded were being purged. And he goes out on missions for the Inquisition unlike Fiona who just hangs out.
It is my opinion that Barris makes the templars look more sympathetic because he's such a cool guy.
Not a big a fan of non coerced cooperation?
The only divine who offers that, maybe, is Cassandra. And even she re-instates the Circles.
Leliana's career as a successful person of influence is based on an espionage power base, and there's no indication that she intends to give that up once Divine.
Leliana is only a fan of non-coerced cooperation if you consider blackmail, murder, and the Game as a whole 'non-coercive.'
I doubt Cassandra and viv see it that way. If you don't support their agenda they'd fight you to the death. Leliana maybe is more stalwart to the Inquisition.
Well they can have fun crushing those uprisings against them with no millitary support then.
And since I disbanded the Templars and didn't reform the seekers, should be interesting to see how exactly they will deal with them.
And i'm sure my Inquisitor will have a real tough time being condemned by the Chantry.....Again
Doesn't matter though, I support Cass's agenda so sall' good
The only divine who offers that, maybe, is Cassandra. And even she re-instates the Circles.
Leliana's career as a successful person of influence is based on an espionage power base, and there's no indication that she intends to give that up once Divine.
Leliana is only a fan of non-coerced cooperation if you consider blackmail, murder, and the Game as a whole 'non-coercive.'
If your approval is low with Cassandra the chantry's relationship with the inquisition becomes strained and she uses her Seekers to quell any dissent. She's no better. She's pious and sincere but she's also impulsive and vicious.
If your approval is low with Cassandra the chantry's relationship with the inquisition becomes strained and she uses her Seekers to quell any dissent. She's no better. She's pious and sincere but she's also impulsive and vicious.
Well my approval's always high with her 
And anyway, using the seekers to quell dissent sounds smart to me. The relationship with the inquisition being strained. Meh?
Well my approval's always high with her
Well Imo, Leliana is a stalwart ally. viv and cass are fickle friends.
Well Imo, Leliana is a stalwart ally. viv and cass are fickle friends.
Well **** thats going to be an awkward alliance considering I dont support her policies
Divine Leliana: "Freedom for Mages"
My Qunquisitor: "No."
Well Imo, Leliana is a stalwart ally. viv and cass are fickle friends.
Viv maybe, but Cass was the left hand. Or was it right? Whatever, the woman oozes devotion and dedication. Tell me again how she's fickle?
If your approval is low with Cassandra the chantry's relationship with the inquisition becomes strained and she uses her Seekers to quell any dissent. She's no better. She's pious and sincere but she's also impulsive and vicious.
Impulsive, yes. Vicious, not so much.
Regardless, I'd agree about 'no better' because, contrary to popular takeaway, I see all the Divine's having underlying currents of stress and discontent that will cause problems in the medium to long-term. Even Lelina's 'miraculous' unhardened dialogue with the opposition for unity comes with the extremely heavy caveat of 'for now'- just as the mages enjoy unprecedented acceptance 'for the moment.'
Well **** thats going to be an awkward alliance considering I dont support her policies
Divine Leliana: "Freedom for Mages"
My Qunquisitor: "No."
"Not just no. HELL no."
She wants to restore the Circle and bring mages back under templar control. Like I said earlier, it's Irving all over again. Irving was always trying to work within the system, which brought the mages to the point of being annulled.There is nothing saying she or any of her mages actually worked as Templars. I have yet to see evidence of this. All she did was not rebel.
Well hey, thanks for checking in.That's so myopic I'm not even sure where I'd begin... were I interested in arguing against something so hyperbolic.
It doesn't take hundreds of mages or dozens of ships for Alexius and his household to get to Ferelden. People don't know that there are any more Tevinter around than these. It's not apparent that Tevinter is up to anything until Corypheus shows his hand and Dorian reveals that there's a splinter faction that's making a god gambit to take over Thedas. You're expecting Fiona to have metaknowledge she can't possibly have. She didn't play Dragon Age Inquisition.Ok, where's your evidence that it's "a small group"?
A small group couldn't have taken Redcliff.
A small group couldn't have even commanded the ships that it would take to carry hundreds of mages from Ferelden to Tevinter.
Or are you suggesting they're going to walk? Because that still wouldn't change anything. You'd need enough provisions to last both ways, soldiers to protect them, etc.
Also, at which point "We're just going to deliver a piece of Ferelden territory to a foreign power by evicting its proper ruler but it's just for a little while" became somehow acceptable?
More to come.
She wants to restore the Circle and bring mages back under templar control. Like I said earlier, it's Irving all over again. Irving was always trying to work within the system, which brought the mages to the point of being annulled.
And she wants to do so with changes attached. She doesn't trust the Templars. Saying she is the templars is a gross overstatement and plain wrong. Templars are needed. And she is so much more boss than Irving. She eventually rules the templars, not the other way around. That, is awesome. I as a mage can get behind that, even if it's surely temporary like all the other end results.
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