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[Master Warder Z_]

Vivienne's solution was to murder her fellow mages.

Vivienne's mages are renegades.

The price of their freedom was to ally with the Templars against the Mages.

Which is just BS because the Loyalists agreed to abide by whatever vote the conclave reached.

"You fight your fellow mages?"

"WHY OF COURSE, Darling. The price of loyalty to the Chantry is to show your support against the rebellion."

Which was like for me:

"The Herald Greatly Disapproves."

Rather then ally with the rebels and declare war on the entire world?

Honestly it's a hard decision.

[Addai]

How exactly did he take control of the most important Arling in Ferelden without a force to back him up then?
Teagan and the Knights sworn to Redcliffe will not simply pack their things and leave Redcliffe Castle and Village in the hands of a Tevinter Magister because he asked them politely.

Where is Teagan and this force of knights when the Crossroads is being torn apart?

[The Baconer]

Real talk though, the Templar force mentioned may have been the main body (of those who survived the Conclave explosion).

 

Alexius used his time magic to warp back to the period directly after the explosion. Now, he knew that Envy!Lucius would order the Templars to pull back to Val Royeaux, which means that he could sell their initial regrouping and following movements as an intent to attack the mages at Redcliffe. At the same time, he could claim that their retreat from the area was due to the presence of the Tevinter host at the village.

[Colonelkillabee]

Where is Teagan and this force of knights when the Crossroads is being torn apart?

I don't understand the point of the question, are you suggesting they weren't around, or a force wasn't necessary to take Redcliffe?

 

Does it even matter? It was given to Tevinter, innocents driven out, regardless of their numbers.

[TobiTobsen]

Where is Teagan and this force of knights when the Crossroads is being torn apart?

 

On their way to Denerim to tell their liege lord that the mages they were protecting signed over the Arling to a foreign force.

[phyreblade74]

My development through the course of the story, so far:

 

1.  Origins saw a pro-mage although not really anti-circle, very diplomatic Warden who married Alistair.  I hear she's now off looking for Fiona's magic don't-want-to-die-but-make-babies-with-my-king-instead cure.

 

2.  DA2 went sharply the other way.  My Hawke was aggressive, blunt and kept running into blood mage after blood mage after blood mage.  And forget it, these weren't nice blood mages.  Even Merrill screwed up before the end, and she was cute as heck!  Then Anders proved he was a crazy terrorist and killed hundreds of people who never did a thing to deserve it.  My Hawke was angry at being forced to pick a side.  But by then he wasn't too keen on unconstrained magic, either.  He went pro-templar.

 

3.  By Inquisition, my personal views are pretty set.  That the Templar Order, while problematic when it's leadership is either a. crazy or b. possessed by a demon, is still a rather necessary force in a world like Thedas.  Magic can be misused, and it's essential to have some means of keeping it in some semblance of control.  To have some means by which to reel it back, maybe.  I made my Inquisitor an elven girl, who turns to the people nearby her for answers in this particular instance.  Between Cullen and Cassandra giving her insights, she ends up going pro-Templar, with the idea that the Seekers have to do more to police both the Circle and the Templars.

[Addai]

I don't understand the point of the question, are you suggesting they weren't around, or a force wasn't necessary to take Redcliffe?
 
Does it even matter? It was given to Tevinter, innocents driven out, regardless of their numbers.

I'm saying that the arling is apparently in such chaos that its arl can't protect its people, let alone keep his castle, and it wouldn't take a massive Tevinter army to overthrow him.

None of this tells me what else Fiona could have done that's more reasonable than turn to Tevinter, only more reasons why she sucks. So since at this point I have to conclude no one can provide an answer to that question, I'm bowing out. Never wanted to get in rendition # 2,974,831 of Mages vs. Templars anyway.

[errantknight]

I'm right where I always was, somewhere in the middle. The mages need oversight as long as they're so at risk of turning into abominations and yet keeping them virtual prisoners is wrong. There need to be checks on potential abuse of power on both sides.

[herkles]

why not turn to any other nation? Nevarra is one I would have looked into, it has an order of mages, mortalitasi, that might be more bearable for working for instead of the Tevinter mages. or they could flee to another bannorn. Why not side with either Celene or Gaspard and use their magical might to make them win the civil war, thus ensuring them the protection from them.

 

But hey at least under tevinter, the mages have the freedom to own people as property.

[Colonelkillabee]

I'm saying that the arling is apparently in such chaos that its arl can't protect its people, let alone keep his castle, and it wouldn't take a massive Tevinter army to overthrow him.

None of this tells me what else Fiona could have done that's more reasonable than turn to Tevinter, only more reasons why she sucks. So since at this point I have to conclude no one can provide an answer to that question, I'm bowing out. Never wanted to get in rendition # 2,974,831 of Mages vs. Templars anyway.

They had tevinter forces there. They infiltrated the mages as refugees. They were there. Whether it was in chaos or not doesn't even matter in the first place. Neither does the size of Tevinter's force.

 

All she had to do was side with Ferelden and not betray their trust, and she'd have been just fine. If templars came, they could retreat if they lacked the numbers, and they'd have Ferelden on their side. You can bow out, but I really just think you don't want to admit the mages had a choice and they made the wrong one. No hard feelings or anything, but you're simply wrong. She did have a choice.

 

And really, this isn't mages vs templars, this is simply getting mage supporters to admit they goofed just like everyone else in DA I.

 

And that's the bottom line.

[AtreiyaN7]

I'm still pro-mage; however, I can understand Vivienne's position. She made valid points, but I don't think it's possible to go back to the old ways at this point - nor do I find it desirable after what happened in DA2.

 

Considering that every single group (except for the Inquisition) totally screwed up in one way or another, well, they have all shown flawed judgment. I say that mages might as well be given a chance at redemption and proving themselves worthy of their freedom, just like the templars should probably get a chance at redeeming their order after their part in what happened.

 

If the mages eventually show that they are incapable of behaving themselves, then fine - maybe a reformed templar order would have to step in at some point.

[dragonflight288]

It's not relevant to this approaching army thing though. It doesn't take an army to attack a small village of unarmed citizens. A dozen, two dozen maybe.

 

Which gives the mages justification to accept Tevinter's help as they needed as many armed forces as possible. 

 

If the Tevinter showed up and the attack never came, then Fiona looks like an idiot, but if the attack did come, even if they aren't comfortable with Tevinter, many mages would feel safer if it was Tevinter that drove off the templars in exchange for servitude. 

 

The whole point of Fiona's justification was they needed help from an impending templar attack. If the attack happened, that gives Alexius and the Venatori political weight in Redcliff. 

 

 

I'm assuming those were the same "templars" that ignored the call to Val Royeux. Sort of like those apostates that're hiding in that cave except when they were rampaging across the Hinterlands because "LOLs POWAAA!!" 

 

Did you read those letters? Both groups were bonkers.

 

I know and established that in a previous post. The point I'm making is that if the town of Redcliff was actually attacked by these templars, and people won't differentiate between the templars who followed the Envy Demon/Lucius or the templars who ignored orders to go to Val Royeaux and stayed to fight, the mages in town would feel pushed into a corner, they need extra bodies and a way out of almost certain death for themselves and the people in the town. Then, *trumpet sounds* Alexius comes in and offers everything they need in exchange for service. 

 

And based on the elven healer in Redcliff treating people exclusively in town until she's convinced to leave as part of a quest, I think that the town actually was attacked by those bonker templars, and this attack is what gave Alexius and the Venatori the political weight they had when we bumped into them in-game. 

[Colonelkillabee]

Which gives the mages justification to accept Tevinter's help as they needed as many armed forces as possible.

If the Tevinter showed up and the attack never came, then Fiona looks like an idiot, but if the attack did come, even if they aren't comfortable with Tevinter, many mages would feel safer if it was Tevinter that drove off the templars in exchange for servitude.

The whole point of Fiona's justification was they needed help from an impending templar attack. If the attack happened, that gives Alexius and the Venatori political weight in Redcliff.

except that have nothing to do with Fiona or her group. That is what I am saying. This is a whole different thing entirely.

[Colonelkillabee]

All we know is that some group of Templars of some sort attacked that area. Like they're doing all over the place, to everyone and no specific sizes at all. That doesn't point to the army that supposedly was coming right over the hill, LOL, that just means that they were in the vacinity. It doesn't take that many people to attack a small town, if it was an army, they would have still been there, because they would have easily taken it. And the mages could handle a small group of Templars. Fiona has hundreds of mages.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I will say that this thread delivers. We're on page 30. I will guess that it will continue to go for another 50 to 100 pages. This is DAI's Geth-Quarian debate. But  which side is the Geth? Ah yes, the mages! Except in this version you can control them by conscripting them.

 

See the Templars feared the mages and attacked first. The mages defended themselves by allying with the reapers...er...blood magic... and then... Tevinter. But now they are free from Tevinter influence! They can help you.

 

But none of this would have happened had there been a more balanced system in place rather than locking mages up in towers never to see the outside world again, or see their families, or made tranquil, or had rites of annulment performed on the circles by templars which killed everyone including those who were innocent.

[herkles]

I am curious if people could reform the system as they desired how would they go about doing it?

[dragonflight288]

except that have nothing to do with Fiona or her group. That is what I am saying. This is a whole different thing entirely.

 

Umm...I just played through this today. A day or so after the conclave, they were terrified that the Templars were going to attack, and there were templars rampaging across the Hinterlands. It is quite likely that these templars did attack Redcliff. 

 

There is no proof that those particular templars didn't attack Redcliff. They had no problem attacking everything else. 

 

EDIT: So if the templars never attacked because they were attacking everyone else, does that mean the that the people the elven healer was healing as a result of a templar attack in the town itself didn't require healing because the templars in the templar attack didn't attack or they weren't templars?

[herkles]

But none of this would have happened had there been a more balanced system in place rather than locking mages up in towers never to see the outside world again, or see their families, or made tranquil, or had rites of annulment performed on the circles by templars which killed everyone including those who were innocent.

Parents can visit their children in the mage towers, ala considering that leandra can visit bethany in kirkwall, perhaps parents don't want to or can't visit their mage children. I don't really see the mages who come from commoners really visiting their parrents, as their parrents have to be working and don't have the money to go and visit their child. Nobles on the other hand have the money and time, ala Leandra

[Colonelkillabee]

Umm...I just played through this today. A day or so after the conclave, they were terrified that the Templars were going to attack, and there were templars rampaging across the Hinterlands. It is quite likely that these templars did attack Redcliff. 

 

There is no proof that those particular templars didn't attack Redcliff. They had no problem attacking everything else. 

 

EDIT: So if the templars never attacked because they were attacking everyone else, does that mean the that the people the elven healer was healing as a result of a templar attack in the town itself didn't require healing because the templars in the templar attack didn't attack or they weren't templars?

You're going to need more than that. "likely", I can't do anything with "likely" when it was just as likely that this group didn't threaten Fiona enough to need to bolster her numbers with tevinter filth. The argument doesn't hold.

[Colonelkillabee]

I am curious if people could reform the system as they desired how would they go about doing it?

Similar to Vivienne's system, except I would only make it mandatory that troublesome mages or ones especially susceptible to demons stay in circles for good, while the others attend like a school, and can leave with jobs that could use their skills waiting for them afterwards, so they're not just casted out in the world. Templars would still remain, as would phylacteries, but no more harrowings. No more brandings either.

 

And mages would help rule themselves.

[SgtSteel91]

Similar to Vivienne's system, except I would only make it mandatory that troublesome mages or ones especially susceptible to demons stay in circles for good, while the others attend like a school, and can leave with jobs that could use their skills waiting for them afterwards, so they're not just casted out in the world. Templars would still remain, as would phylacteries, but no more harrowings. No more brandings either.

 

And mages would help rule themselves.

 

That kind of sounds similar to what Fiona does with the College of Enchanters with the Seekers reformed.

[Colonelkillabee]

That kind of sounds similar to what Fiona does with the College of Enchanters with the Seekers reformed.

So that's under Cassandra? If so, that sounds ideal to me.

[Red of Rivia]

I was always on the side of the Magi in the games, but I always thought that was taking the wrong choice, but today I do not think so, mages need to be free.

[Colonelkillabee]

Also, if it were up to me, I'd start milking that Herald of Andraste thing to make it seem like my reforms are the maker's will. And when they lead to peace and the fighting stops, they'd know that my words were true.

 

Maybe even have it put in writing, considering I'm a holy figure.

[raging_monkey]

Also, if it were up to me, I'd start milking that Herald of Andraste thing to make it seem like my reforms are the maker's will. And when they lead to peace and the fighting stops, they'd know that my words were true.
 
Maybe even have it put in writing, considering I'm a holy figure.

thats what i did lol all radical reforms are andrastes will lol