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[Willowhugger]

It's hard to point out your position is improved if you're cannon fodder.

 

Re: The Templars

I'd actually like to also defend them and their actions. People in this thread are kind of bizarre as they're hard on Fiona and company but everyone seems to be saying they're bad guys.

They're not.

 

The Templars are much-much nicer than the mages in the fact all of their decisions are coerced with magic. Lord Seeker Lucius is a horrible piece of crap but the rank and file are repeatedly shown to be extremely good people who are not a bunch of a psychopaths. I mentioned earlier the situation with Fiona is she turns on a bunch of friends to become allies with the Worst People on ThedasTM willingly while the Templars are given cyanide pizza.

 

I think the big thing to remember is the Mage-Templar War ended or was going to end at the Conclave. I like to believe the Knight Commanders were willing to come to a negotiated settlement with the mages there and the First Enchanters were going to overrule Fiona.

 

Mages and Templars BOTH would have won in the end.

 

It didn't need to be "all or nothing."

[SgtSteel91]

I still want to know how a free college of enchanters would improve relations between the mundanes and mages; as well as handling blood mages and abominations.

 

Well their stated mission is to solve age old problems with magic. So they will use magic to better the lives of non-mages. Helping the Inquisition close the Breach and fight Corypheus' forces most likely helped as well. And I bet Leliana would smooth things over between Mages and Non-Mages since she's the one who dissolved the Circles so it's her ass on the line if things go bad. I imagine the Inquisition will work with them to find and encourage new mages to attend the College (or start Colleges across Southern Thedas like the Mages Guild in The Elder Scrolls) as well as deal with renegade Blood Mages and abominations (I also think abominations are going to be less commonplace since no one is forcing the mages into a corner anymore).

 

Oh! Headcanon: There are 4 College of Enchanters in Southern Thedas: White Spire in Orlais, the Mage Tower in Fereldan (I imagine the Inquisition and the Divine smoothed things over with the monarchy), one in Nevarra, and the former Circle in Ostwick.

[Dean_the_Young]

The current system failed.

 

That depends on what the system exists to do, and what the metric for success and failure are. Ironically, the greatest failure of the Circle system may well be if Vivienne takes the Sunburst Throne.

 

 

Personally, I expect systemic crisis and rebellions on a semi-regular basis: mass social upheaval to me is something to be expected every century or so. That the Circle system went a millenia without a rebellion is impressive- that doesn't mean that  changes and reforms aren't warranted now, but it does suggest things aren't as irrevocably broken as one might assume if you just look at the present.

[Willowhugger]

I think one of the big things DA:I does is shoot the whole "Templars and Mages are uncompromising believers in their positions" thing in the balls. Templars and Mages are both shown to be willing to compromise on most of their views and Kirkwall really was a gigantic "worst case scenario."

 

Even Cassandra talks about Kirkwall and how, under normal circumstances, it never should have come to that.

"Kirkwall's Templars were the worst of us and we launched many an investigation into their cruelty and abuses but then kept finding Blood Mages and Abominations! So we reluctantly agreed it was justified--yeah, that didn't work out."

Fiona's view of the Templars and the Hinterlands Templars are that these die-hard mage-killers are RARE and considered crazy by their contemporaries.

[Colonelkillabee]

snip

No, the templars are dickheads, doesn't matter if they're nice or not. They serve the dicks in charge, so like the wardens, their hands are soiled as well. I don't really care if they're nice. They knew what red lyrium did, Varric told the world. How stupid can they be after what happened to their knight commander who only made a weapon out of the stuff, not drink it?

 

And Lambert was a bastard all by himself, no demons or red lyrium required.

[Dean_the_Young]

I was speaking more in terms of a gradual decay in the Circle's purpose rather than the system irrevocably failed. The Circle in it's contemporary form (glorified jail) does not work. For both Mages and Templars.

 

That, again, would depend on what you believe that purpose to be. You need to be specific about that.

 

Unless you mean that there's no longer a consensus about what the purpose should be, in which case I'd agree. The terrors of the First Inquisition are long past- not only are mages not as feared by mundanes as they once were, but mages don't fear mundanes as they once did. A purpose that was once self-evident, desirable segregation for mutual safety, is not longer firmly believed.

[Willowhugger]

No, the templars are dickheads, doesn't matter if they're nice or not. They serve the dicks in charge, so like the wardens, their hands are soiled as well. I don't really care if they're nice. They knew what red lyrium did, Varric told the world. How stupid can they be after what happened to their night commander who only made a weapon out of the stuff, not drink it?

 

And Lambert was a bastard all by himself, no demons or red lyrium required.

 

The documents I found indicated someone just gave them a new series of potions which happened to be red and only after they drank it and were crazy did they get mind-controlled.

 

In short, it wasn't voluntarily they took Red Lyrium save in rare cases.

People flat-out didn't know about Meredith.

[Colonelkillabee]

The documents I found indicated someone just gave them a new series of potions which happened to be red and only after they drank it and were crazy did they get mind-controlled.

 

In short, it wasn't voluntarily they took Red Lyrium save in rare cases.

People flat-out didn't know about Meredith.

My mother told me to question when people try to put strange things in my mouth. At best, they're morons.

[thesuperdarkone2]

The documents I found indicated someone just gave them a new series of potions which happened to be red and only after they drank it and were crazy did they get mind-controlled.

 

In short, it wasn't voluntarily they took Red Lyrium save in rare cases.

People flat-out didn't know about Meredith.

Something tells me that a Templar that can animate statues, shoot lightning, and super jump should be something more people acknowledge.

[Colonelkillabee]

Also, what is it, did they just say "Here's some cherry flavored lyrium", or what because what I read was that they said red lyrium was superior to blue chantry lyrium, and they bought it, despite what happened in kirkwall. They're not that stupid. And if they are, that's a big point against them.

 

Still deserve conscription until they can be reformed later.

[Willowhugger]

My mother told me to question when people try to put strange things in my mouth. At best, they're morons.

 

And again, they've been drinking the stuff given by the Templars for decades. It's the pizza party with a guy you've known for decades.

 

The game also does a decent job of showing Lord Seeker Lambert and Lucius are exceptions rather than the rule. Cassandra's quest is all about discovering the Seekers are corrupted and have been doing crazy stuff for centuries.

 

Sort of like discovering you're in a Dan Brown novel.

[Colonelkillabee]

And again, they've been drinking the stuff given by the Templars for decades. It's the pizza party with a guy you've known for decades.

Not really, as different flavored lyrium's not your everyday occurrence. I'm not buying that they were so stupid that the switch to red lyrium suddenly didn't seem strange at all. Bullshit alert.

[Willowhugger]

Also, what is it, did they just say "Here's some cherry flavored lyrium", or what because what I read was that they said red lyrium was superior to blue chantry lyrium, and they bought it, despite what happened in kirkwall. They're not that stupid. And if they are, that's a big point against them.

 

Still deserve conscription until they can be reformed later.

That's the thing, though, as we know.

Cassandra is literally tracking down Varric to have him share his story with the Conclave in hopes it will reconcile the Inquisition and Rebel Mages (also find Hawke to head up the Inquisition as an investigative body into mage crimes).

 

Cullen and the Kirkwall Templars know SOMETHING happened to Meredith but have no way of knowing it's the Red Lyrium sword until later.

 

This information might have prevented the war. Remember, Cassandra's view of what happened is the "mainstream" view in DA2. Which was a Grey Warden/Hawke/Mage conspiracy.

[Colonelkillabee]

My inquisitor asked Varric about the book he wrote and published on Kirkwall. This was common knowledge.

[Willowhugger]

Not really, as different flavored lyrium's not your everyday occurrence. I'm not buying that they were so stupid that the switch to red lyrium suddenly didn't seem strange at all. Bullshit alert.

 

Then if it's not a pizza party, then your Doctor changing medications.

You don't expect them to straight up murder you so they can animate your corpse with creatures from the Fade.

 

Samson, I've got to say, is completely bat****, though, with his justifications.

Ditto Lucius.

[Willowhugger]

Barris says the Knight-Commanders are always experimenting with new forms of lyrium. They thought "red" was the flavor of the month.

 

Hell, even if they've red, "The Hawke Chronicles" (and why would they?) then you could say it was magic worked on the Lyrium idol than the Red Lyrium itself.

[Dean_the_Young]

Agreed. As for what I 'think' the Circles should be. A safe environment where magic can be studied. No more or less. Keep the mundanes safe while mages hone their skills to the point they're not a danger to themselves and the populace. The countermeasures you outlined utilizing the College of Fraternities as means for checks and balances should definitely be adopted. Templars assigned to Circles operate in a hands off approach extreme cases not withstanding. Mages policing themselves while wielding greater individual autonomy is what's wanted at this point. Let them get out there and do good while creating avenues for detecting the bad apples. 

 

Mage policing mages while having substantial autonomy is what many of the mages want. The desires of the mundanes, or even many of the mundanes, are hardly synonymous.

 

As the hyper-majority and historically the most vulnerable to the abuses of magic and magi, their views should also be considered and weighed- especially in light of what self-regulation of mages by mages has routinely means and has meant across Thedas, both in the past and in the more recent present with the latest mage-rebellion.

[Colonelkillabee]

Then if it's not a pizza party, then your Doctor changing medications.

You don't expect them to straight up murder you so they can animate your corpse with creatures from the Fade.

 

Samson, I've got to say, is completely bat****, though, with his justifications.

Ditto Lucius.

If my doctor gave me anything that was that bizarre, something very out of the norm and said "Oh this is new, better!" The common response is to ask questions about symptoms.

 

"Warning, red lyrium may cause you to be an *******, especially if you typically devote yourself to white knight orders, may cause vomitting, nausea, diarrhea of the mouth, red crystal growths and mutations, balding, little dick syndrome... Hmm, I see that last one's a pre-existing condition."

[Colonelkillabee]

Barris says the Knight-Commanders are always experimenting with new forms of lyrium. They thought "red" was the flavor of the month.

Did these new forms come in different colors because the game makes a point that red is super bizarre and no one's ever seen it.

[Willowhugger]

Did these new forms come in different colors because the game makes a point that red is super bizarre and no one's ever seen it.

 

Well it's super-bizarre because it grows while regular lyrium...doesn't.

At least until we find out its alive.

[raging_monkey]

Did these new forms come in different colors because the game makes a point that red is super bizarre and no one's ever seen it.

hey if red mountain dew is on the table you drink it... even if it runs through you