936 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

To me, she was manipulated by Alexius that certain painful death was inevitable and soon to come and that her only choice was to ally with him. So I can't really condemn her and the mages like some other posters do here.

 

She's a mage. Her entire life is one giant target board of potential temptations to the deals and persuasions of demons, not all of whom kindly put on their monster face first. 'Manipulation' when she should have kept perspective isn't an excuse for her, because 'vulnerable to manipulation' is one of the primary justifications for separating the mages from the mundanes in the first place.

 

Especially when selling herself to Alexius ('ally' implies some rough equality) did nothing to enhance her security. Alexius is a Tevinter magister far from Tevinter with few people and no supply lines or reinforcements. Any Templar army that could take Redcliffe when the Arl was protecting her would have made short work of Alexius... were there actually any Templar army nearby that could take Redcliffe that might justify a certainty of painful death.

 

(There wasn't.)

 

 

I kind of see their situation similar to the Geth situation in ME3 if the Reapers convinced the Geth the Quarians and the Galaxy were going to kill them all and offered to save them.

 

 

Uh... the geth were bloody stupid in ME3.

 

Like, really stupid. Not only in putting themselves into that corner of 'no allies' in the first place by centuries of hyper-militant isolationism, but in breaking off negotiations with the Quarians before the Quarians became desperate, and then in indulging with negotiations with the Reapers (who they knew would destroy their freedom and such) rather than evacuating Ranoch. It's hard to credit the Geth with a worse course of action they could have taken, both in the lead-up and in their immediate circumstance.

 

So, I suppose great comparison?
 

 

I also don't condemn the Templars for their actions but I conscript them not for punishment but because I want them to follow me and not the Chantry (and because it helps get Leliana elected as Divine).

 

Cool beans.

[raging_monkey]

Ive said before and ill say it again... "magi- cerberus, templars- the alliance" seems legit right lol

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Ive said before and ill say it again... "magi- cerberus, templars- the alliance" seems legit right lol

 

Ehh. I bet most people view it the opposite way.

[The Baconer]

Ive said before and ill say it again... "magi- cerberus, templars- the alliance" seems legit right lol

 

Everyone went Cerberus, that's the point of the game.

[raging_monkey]

Ehh. I bet most people view it the opposite way.

bet cha 12 it is lol

[raging_monkey]

Everyone went Cerberus, that's the point of the game.

idk templars felt like i was being forced into goodness... really immersion breaking lol

[Bucky]

The Seekers are probably closer to Cerberus than anything.

 

Shadowy, official arm of recognized authority that separates, believing it knows better how to fix things.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

The Seekers were perhaps the lamest antagonists of the game.

 

Their leader turned out to have gone nuts from reading a book and decided to work with a generic doomsday cult.

[The Baconer]

The Seekers were perhaps the lamest antagonists of the game.

 

Their leader turned out to have gone nuts from reading a book and decided to work with a generic doomsday cult.

 

Can't say they didn't deserve it.

[raging_monkey]

This DA2 all over.... oh yay XD

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

Their leader turned out to have gone nuts from reading a book and decided to work with a generic doomsday cult.

Anyone can gone nuts from reading a book especially during the final.

I agree the Seekers has become the lamest antagonists of DAI. It's DA2 all over...again.

[Rekkampum]

Considering shifting my position to Pro-Tevinter.

 

I sympathized with the Mages in Origins; Morrigan's argument against the circle was convincing but I did not flinch. 

 

DA II, I was firmly Pro-Mage and then I learned of Orsino's mistakes and his cover up and how it had cost Hawke dearly, yet I still defended him. I saw the Resolutionists and I saw the blood mages and I sighed. And then Anders piled on, but I agreed with his actions.

 

Asunder and Inquisition sees a complete destruction of Libertarian justification; their credibility no longer exists. Vivienne is in my face spouting propaganda and hate, Solas is responsible for a very big problem, Dorian is one in a million....

 

 

I figure that at least Tevinter is honest; everyone knows the score, everyone knows what's up, there are no misunderstandings or mysteries. They have their own Chantry, their own way of doing things and I can respect their sovereignty and unwillingness to capitulate to White Thedas.

I don't even think we can put Solas in the same category, considering what he really is, and his activity prior to Inquisition.

 

Tevinter, in my opinion, is pretty open in their dealings but also classist in their approach to handling magick. Even Dorian recognizes there are elements of Tevinter society that are problematic and need reform.

 

I like Vivienne, because ambitious as she is, she actually does seek to reform the Circle so that the problems it created don't arise in the future. They may appear to be too conservative in the short-term, but in the long-term they do pose many benefits and safeguards.

[dragonflight288]

I haven't really changed my stance, which is a reformed circle. I just like arguing on behalf of mages for fun. And some of the debates can be quite thought-provoking so long as the person I'm debating with and I don't lose our tempers and start getting personal. 

 

I'm guilty of that in the past, usually I log off for a day so I can come back with a clearer head, and end up usually playing catch up and the thread has since moved on so it's not worth bringing up again. 

[raging_monkey]

Freedom vs security debates are always a blast

[Netzachs]

I was pro Mage in DA:O.
I was Templar ready and burn the witch Monty Python rhetoric equipped by the time DA:I hit.

It wasn't that I didn't think mages deserved a chance, it's what most of the mages did with their chance.
It's how they treated the tranquil, the poor, the destitute and the refugees. They had a chance to be saviors and wield unchecked power to help society, and instead they were just giant.. *ahem*s.

So, yeah. Was happy to say "TEMPLAR UP!" Except.. A certain someone had such a horrendously done face that I took an action and got me some prisoners just to dispose of said someone.

[Grondoth]

Mages need the circles. They need them to be good. Reformed circles are the best option, because magic in this game is dangerous. The very fact that you're a mage exposes you to dangers well beyond anything most normal people have to deal with. A misstep in a dream could kill you and your whole damn town. The mages who want to be free do not respect the power they have, and see being cloistered as a punishment instead of a responsibility they owe the world. That's what's heroic about magic in this setting, accepting that you are more than just another dude and thus have a responsibility to make yourself less dangerous. If magic isn't dangerous and mages don't need to cloister themselves or accept any more responsibility than everyone else, then mages are people with inborn talent that makes them better than anyone else. This is seen in Tevinter, but that it's the natural outcome of magic being stripped of its inherent danger isn't stated anywhere, even though that's the thematic implication.

 

DA2 decided to make Templars stupid zealots and now the whole universe is spinning around trying to right itself back into its tonally correct position because of a legendarily bad game.

[raging_monkey]

Da2 destroyed reasonable compromise between fans XD

[_Aine_]

This has put me firmly in the middle, I have no idea who is better off being in power, if anyone.  My Trevelyan ended up just being squarely against anyone who appeared corrupt or had an agenda that would have been detrimental to the public at large or the greater good.   She was willing to see guilt or innocence from anyone, took things as they came and tried to see issues and common ground instead of black and white, this side or that.     The mages clearly need more personal freedoms, but the world also needs assurances that they could be held to a standard of behaviour that creates a safe society for all.  It's a tough call for me really.

[Rekkampum]

Huh?  The Quarians were the ones who decided to strike at Rannoch in the middle of a Reaper invasion after somehow mysteriously developing a super-weapon and using it to destroy the Dyson Sphere that the Geth were constructing.

 

Legion was proven correct in ME2 when he said that the Quarians will attack 100% of the time when given the opportunity to do so.

The writer for Legion confirmed that executive decisions completely derailed what he was shooting for with the Geth initially. I thought that campaign was one of the weaker parts because of how cliched it had gotten with the "robots are alive" trope that's been overused.

[rpgfan321]

I'm still pro-mage, but a line from Cassandra just made me think about templars. How mages always let their troubles known, but not templars. 

 

It's pretty messed up how the Chantry keeps the templars in check, using the lyrium as a crutch to keep them in line. I felt bad for them. 

 

I'm still pro-mage though, just not in a liberal manner. 

[raging_monkey]

You know what in all my time here on the bsn i never honestly asked myself or others WHAT pro-mage ment or WHAT pro-templar ment, or even pro-circle , just saw broad labels of varying beliefs.

So i ask what do these things mean to the bsners explicitly you share i will share(if anyone cares XD)

[Maconbar]

I just finished Asunder. The Leadership of most of these organizations is terrible. Mages are mostly spoiled imbeciles. Templars are thugs. Good thing I farmed iron and locks in the Hinterlands. Now I have enough power to rule them all.

[EmissaryofLies]

I don't even think we can put Solas in the same category, considering what he really is, and his activity prior to Inquisition.

 

Tevinter, in my opinion, is pretty open in their dealings but also classist in their approach to handling magick. Even Dorian recognizes there are elements of Tevinter society that are problematic and need reform.

 

I like Vivienne, because ambitious as she is, she actually does seek to reform the Circle so that the problems it created don't arise in the future. They may appear to be too conservative in the short-term, but in the long-term they do pose many benefits and safeguards.

 

Solas is not in the same category on the surface but the implications presented in the last scene paint his hands just as red as a certain Magister's.

 

Tevinter certainly has its issues but at this point their sovereignty and unapologetic use of magic is spades more attractive than the excuse making idiocy of the Rebels/Libertarians.

 

I agree with Libertarian ideals but do not think that they deserve to see them realized, if that makes sense.

 

VIvienne is money, I just wish she'd stop pretending that her stance is anything more than self-serving opportunism. But, like you, I enjoy her arguments.