936 réponses à ce sujet

[Maconbar]

Solas is not in the same category on the surface but the implications presented in the last scene paint his hands just as red as a certain Magister's.
 
Tevinter certainly has its issues but at this point their sovereignty and unapologetic use of magic is spades more attractive than the excuse making idiocy of the Rebels/Libertarians.
 
I agree with Libertarian ideals but do not think that they deserve to see them realized, if that makes sense.
 
VIvienne is money, I just wish she'd stop pretending that her stance is anything more than self-serving opportunism. But, like you, I enjoy her arguments.

i am surprised that she didn't start advocating in favor of supply side economics to solve the breach and the mage Templar conflict.

[LadyVaJedi]

I am still for the makes to have freedom. I like how the mage/wizard school is set up in the Harry Potter book and movie series. There should be some type of guards when there are magical exams and tests for the mages. Should they be taken away from their families and have no rights no. There should be checks and balances.

[Yermogi]

I believe that mages have the right to prove to people that they can be productive members of society. Locking them away from early childhood and preventing most of them from leaving could only work so long. While I do believe that mages should be monitored, I don't believe that they should be treated as dangerous monsters while their gifts (and I do believe they are gifts) are reviled by people who have not been educated on the truths of how magic works and what mages go through. If the mages prove that they're not able to cope in regular society, then they can impose more restrictions. But give them a chance at least. Let them prove themselves.

 

To me, it seems like the best idea would be to let young mage children stay in their home villages, to be educated on the basics by adult mages while their families and other villagers keep them grounded and ensure they have a good support system, which is half the issue to begin with. The last thing a child needs is to be torn away from everything familiar when their powers manifest. Their worlds are going to change regardless, but they don't need to be drug away from their loved ones like prisoners. Templars should also be local adults that the kids know, so that they aren't afraid of Templars and instead learn what their purpose is, which is to protect them and other people should something go wrong. Then when they're older, they'd be sent to the Circles to pursue higher education without feeling like they're being torn away from their families and everything they know. Dorian called the Circles in Tevinter 'academies'. I think they should foster that view in southern Thedas, make the Circles look like places to further learning and hone skills rather than a guided cage. The restrictions there can be a bit more firm, but that will be because the people in the Circles there are all adults, and know the consequences of choices because they were taught in a safe, familiar and protected environment as children. Some people have likened this issue to gun control (which I find a terrible comparison), but if you were to compare the two, take the state of Wyoming in the US- it has the highest population of gun-owning citizens, yet has the lowest rating of gun-related crimes in the entire US. It's because people there are taught as children to handle guns responsibly, and with serious instruction and lessons. If you're taught something as a child, you're less likely to go against what you were taught as an adult.

 

The whole issue is that people see mages as monsters, like they chose their powers. They can't help what they've been born with. It's just a natural thing, and treating them like freaks just fosters resentment and severe distrust on all sides. I'm not saying they should be treated with kid gloves, but the best way to ensure that they can live among everyday society normally is to raise them in everyday society normally- at least at an early age- and then let them go from there. Every person is different. You can't call all mages insane based on the actions of a few, just like you can't call all Templars controlling murderers based on the actions of a few. The system needs serious tweaking, or else they'll just be stuck in the same cycle in the future.

 

What Vivienne said in one of her conversations just reinforced this notion to me- she said something along the lines of mages being kept in towers their whole lives, so they can't cope living in the real world. Well, how the heck is keeping the mages locked up supposed to fix that? They need to get out in the world to understand how it is before everyone denounces them as being weak and helpless. If you keep a dog locked up in a kennel for most of it's life, it's not going to be able to cope if you put it in a regular field. The mages have to be given a change to go out into the world at some point. They might as well get that chance now.

[duckley]

Both Cullen and Cassandra have interesting ideas on solutions...
I was surprized at Cullen's thoughts...

[Urazz]

I didn't really change my position on the matter actually.  I lean more towards a Circle and Templar order that has it's problems fixed and is improved upon.  In the first 2 games, I generally sided with the mages because it felt like it was the right thing to do and in DAI I did decide to do the mage mission on my first playthrough (mainly because it felt like it was more dangerous to let the Venatori play time travel with rifts).  I ended up conscripting the mages because of what they did in the hinterlands/redcliff and the fact that Fiona is a freaking idiot and a weak leader.  It's one thing to be desperate for help, but allying with Tevinter was the dumbest move they could make possible and I'm surprised most of the mages didn't flee from Redcliff when they found out about the alliance with Tevinter.

[Rekkampum]

Solas is not in the same category on the surface but the implications presented in the last scene paint his hands just as red as a certain Magister's.
 
Tevinter certainly has its issues but at this point their sovereignty and unapologetic use of magic is spades more attractive than the excuse making idiocy of the Rebels/Libertarians.
 
I agree with Libertarian ideals but do not think that they deserve to see them realized, if that makes sense.
 
VIvienne is money, I just wish she'd stop pretending that her stance is anything more than self-serving opportunism. But, like you, I enjoy her arguments.

Oh, no one's saying he's innocent. But including him I think isn't valid since he isn't tied to the mage rebellion in any form. That other bit happened afterward.
 
I'm not following the meta-political associations. That said, I think as a person who clearly has experience dealing with Mages and life in the Circle, her views at least are not made from ignorance and worth considering. Also, metagaming,

 

Spoiler

She actually does a lot of good reforming the Mages if you support her in the end.

[Master Warder Z_]

The irony.

Because it's of their own making?

[dragonflight288]

You know what in all my time here on the bsn i never honestly asked myself or others WHAT pro-mage ment or WHAT pro-templar ment, or even pro-circle , just saw broad labels of varying beliefs.

So i ask what do these things mean to the bsners explicitly you share i will share(if anyone cares XD)

 

Hmmm. Good question.

 

For me, being pro-mage is more than simply supporting mage rights or less restrictions or whatnot. To me, supporting mages means respecting them as people while also respecting the power they wield, and treat it with proper caution. 

 

There is no reason to dehumanize or deelfize a mage simply because they are mages. Treat them humanely and as individuals, allow them relationships and marriage should they come of age and wish it, allow them opportunities to work outside a circle once they're fully trained. 

 

This does not mean remove restrictions on magic. The way magic works in the Dragon Age universe, it is both gift and curse. An overeager or overambitious apprentice can be more dangerous than a soldier. And few are more ambitious or eager than adolescents, especially those who are given a great deal of power. Without training, a mage is just as much a danger to himself as to others around him. Whether setting bullies heads on fire like Wynne did, or ending up possessed and nearly destroying a village like Connor, there is a very real danger. 

 

To be pro-mage to me is to respect the mage and respect his/her power, and yes there is a difference to me. Taking reasonable precautions are things I'm perfectly fine with. But these apprentices are often torn from their families, or even outright abandoned. Some are like Aneirin and come from backgrounds where humans equals racism and bad experiences from the alienage life. And so, as a way to respect the mage, they also need to be treated as people, and need to be helped when they stumble, recognize they do have emotions and aren't just another Tevinter Magister waiting to happen, or ticking time bombs, and effort must be made to provide them with emotional stability. 

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

I agree the Seekers has become the lamest antagonists of DAI. It's DA2 all over...again.

 

I found the Lord Seeker to be even worse than what we saw in DA2.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this the gist of his character?

 

Lucius inherits the title of Lord Seeker from the now deceased Lambert and with it the book. He reads it and finds out about some of the dark secrets the Seekers withheld and becomes disheartened about the organization. But instead of using his power as the Lord Seeker to reform them and the templars as he sees fit, he instead decides to...

 

- willingly let an envy demon who plans to corrupt the templars copycat him

- join a doomsday cult

- work with Cory

- Systematically send his comrade in arms to their death in a trap

 

I find that even more baffling than First Enchanter "I'mma turn into a flesh monster and betray my friends" Orsino.

[TEWR]

My views have always been moderate while advocating reforms to the system.

 

DAI didn't really change all that much, to be honest.

 

It did however disappoint me with the portrayal of the Mage-Templar conflict, relegating it to the backdrop when it had a lot of potential.

[TK514]

H

To be pro-mage to me is to respect the mage and respect his/her power, and yes there is a difference to me. Taking reasonable precautions are things I'm perfectly fine with. But these apprentices are often torn from their families, or even outright abandoned. Some are like Aneirin and come from backgrounds where humans equals racism and bad experiences from the alienage life. And so, as a way to respect the mage, they also need to be treated as people, and need to be helped when they stumble, recognize they do have emotions and aren't just another Tevinter Magister waiting to happen, or ticking time bombs, and effort must be made to provide them with emotional stability. 

 

This is my main point of divergence.  I believe mages should absolutely be removed from their families at the earliest opportunity.  Mainly because non-Mages would have no idea how to raise or deal with a magical child, but to a lesser extent because children are generally emotional creatures who lack the maturity to form a proper defense under stressful circumstances.  Connor is particularly believable to me, because all he knew was that a nice lady told him she would help his sick father.  No amount of 'demons are bad' is going to keep a 12 year old from accepting help from a nice lady who wants to save a beloved family member.

 

And that's all before we even get to the fact that to children, the 'different' make prime targets for ostracizing and abusing.  Putting normal and magical children together seems like a great recipe for them to grow up hating each other unconditionally.

 

Later in life, once they've fully developed into reasonable people?  I'm all for more socialization.

[LaughingBanana]

I was leaning on pro mage-freedom sentiments before... but right now I am more leaning towards the "rebel mages are arseholes" camp.

[Urazz]

 

What Vivienne said in one of her conversations just reinforced this notion to me- she said something along the lines of mages being kept in towers their whole lives, so they can't cope living in the real world. Well, how the heck is keeping the mages locked up supposed to fix that? They need to get out in the world to understand how it is before everyone denounces them as being weak and helpless. If you keep a dog locked up in a kennel for most of it's life, it's not going to be able to cope if you put it in a regular field. The mages have to be given a change to go out into the world at some point. They might as well get that chance now.

Which is why you can't just free them easily as they'll just cause problems or wander into problems again like they did in DAI.  It's generally why I prefer the more moderate approach that gradually changes things.

[TEWR]

There is a note you can find in... the Emerald Graves, I believe (or the Exalted Plains) that was penned by a mage who lamented how he/she wasn't cut out for surviving out in the wilderness where it's cold and food is something he/she had to get for themselves, in contrast to the warmth of the tower and how he/she always had a meal.

[dragonflight288]

This is my main point of divergence.  I believe mages should absolutely be removed from their families at the earliest opportunity.  Mainly because non-Mages would have no idea how to raise or deal with a magical child, but to a lesser extent because children are generally emotional creatures who lack the maturity to form a proper defense under stressful circumstances.  Connor is particularly believable to me, because all he knew was that a nice lady told him she would help his sick father.  No amount of 'demons are bad' is going to keep a 12 year old from accepting help from a nice lady who wants to save a beloved family member.

 

And that's all before we even get to the fact that to children, the 'different' make prime targets for ostracizing and abusing.  Putting normal and magical children together seems like a great recipe for them to grow up hating each other unconditionally.

 

Later in life, once they've fully developed into reasonable people?  I'm all for more socialization.

 

But that's the thing, mages aren't jedi who can be caught and taken for training as infants. They don't come into their magic or show signs of magical ability until they're on the verge of becoming teenagers.

 

Whether they're abandoned or taken by the templars, by the time its discovered they're mages, they're at the age Connor was when he was possessed, as that's when magical ability manifests itself. 

[TEWR]

But that's the thing, mages aren't jedi who can be caught and taken for training as infants. They don't come into their magic or show signs of magical ability until they're on the verge of becoming teenagers.

 

Whether they're abandoned or taken by the templars, by the time its discovered they're mages, they're at the age Connor was when he was possessed, as that's when magical ability manifests itself. 

 

Point of interest: it's possible magic will manifest before they hit their teens, but it's a known fact it can appear anywhere from the ages of 6-12.

 

Still bad for the kid psychologically, however, no matter how you slice it. At least with how the Circle system operated prior, where there was no real discussion with children and parents.

 

It's like foster care. And foster care can be very bad for those put into it. Or very good. Or meh.

[xikorra]

ive always been pro mage, and am still pro mage, but can see a better side of the templars in DAI. 

 

I do like the idea of a mage college though, bring on the Hogwarts

[Kulyok]

I was pro-mage before. Mage kids parted from their parents = bad, mages locked up = bad, and so on, and so forth.

 

Then Solas came up, and he was voicing everything I was thinking - on the Qun, the mages, the spirits, the slavery, the oppression and the intelligent thought. (Except for the Wardens, because I don't have enough information yet to agree or to disagree - and it's pretty clear he's withholding facts here). So no, my opinion stays the same when it comes to the templar-mage conflict.

 

 

(though it's really embarrassing how my in-game boyfriends tend to blow up things)

[Antergaton]

In DA:O there was little pro-mage/pro-templar thoughts really, I wasn't going to kill everyone because of a couple of blood mages. The whole game was more get people to go along with you to fight the Darkspawn.

 

In DA2 it was odd, I was pro mages because of the way the Circle there was so strict. Yet even then, many turned to blood magic still. There were few Templars that were good.

 

In DA:I well, I my views were actually changed in a way by Vivienne's views. I agree some sort of control is needed, yet there should be some freedom to have. She pointed out that the Mage rebellion stated because of what happened in Kirkwall, the Circle was too strict and what that lead to was was the murder of loads of people by Anders for no real good reason, them saying yes was indirectly condoning what Anders did and that wasn't right. She is right on that. In order to get respect, mages needed to separate themselves from such thing. The whole game is setup to show you that not every mage is bad, not every Templar is suppressing mages, not every Tervinter is a evil Magister, not every Val Royale Nobel is stuck up.

[Hobbes]

I'm still pretty much the same.

I believe mages deserve a little more freedom and control, but I also believe they do need some sort of supervision and guidance.  I don't think the Circle in itself is a bad thing, it just needs reworking and more accountability for the Templars if they start straying or becoming like the ones in Kirkwall for example.

[Bucky]

Because it's of their own making?

 

You take people and cloister them - a choice made for them - and they grow up not understanding the world outside the cloister.

 

It was the actions of others that led to their state of underdeveloped socialization.

 

From a purely pragmatic point of view, the Chantry has made a litany of dumb decisions over the years.  The forced cutting of ties with one's family is probably the dumbest.  They want mages to feel responsible toward society without allowing them a reason to care about society.  Dumb.

[Killdren88]

Nope. Still think the Templars are scum. Fiona's foolishness won't change that.

[TK514]

But that's the thing, mages aren't jedi who can be caught and taken for training as infants. They don't come into their magic or show signs of magical ability until they're on the verge of becoming teenagers.
 
Whether they're abandoned or taken by the templars, by the time its discovered they're mages, they're at the age Connor was when he was possessed, as that's when magical ability manifests itself.

Good points. For some reason, I had it in my head that Connor had manifested earlier, and Isolde had been hiding it from everyone until he got to the point that she had to hire Jowan.

[panichord]

In the past two games I couldn't even attempt to find reason in the templars position, but surprisingly Inquisition has left enough ambiguity within the conflict, not to mention wrongs on both sides, that I found myself shifting to side with the templars.It doesn't hurt that they gave us more reason to believe the templars were poorly misled, while the mages were a bit - how should I put this - deranged in their advocacy.

[Camenae]

This is my main point of divergence.  I believe mages should absolutely be removed from their families at the earliest opportunity.  Mainly because non-Mages would have no idea how to raise or deal with a magical child, but to a lesser extent because children are generally emotional creatures who lack the maturity to form a proper defense under stressful circumstances.  Connor is particularly believable to me, because all he knew was that a nice lady told him she would help his sick father.  No amount of 'demons are bad' is going to keep a 12 year old from accepting help from a nice lady who wants to save a beloved family member.

 

And that's all before we even get to the fact that to children, the 'different' make prime targets for ostracizing and abusing.  Putting normal and magical children together seems like a great recipe for them to grow up hating each other unconditionally.

 

Later in life, once they've fully developed into reasonable people?  I'm all for more socialization.

 

I agree with this.  Given how in Thedas most people's attitude towards magic are exactly like the Dursleys' attitude towards Harry Potter, it's unsurprising that I heard and read so many in-game characters say that it was a relief to be in the Circle, for both their families AND them.  I mean Harry Potter only went back to the Dursleys when he HAD to and he was miserable the whole time.  

 

Children will ostracize and abuse the different.  Absolutely.  Again just see how Dudley treated Harry.  I don't think anti-bullying PSAs are going to stop that. 

 

Drastic actions ARE needed as soon as it's discovered that a child has magic.  Even if those actions seem harsh when compared to how you would treat an ordinary person--except Mages aren't ordinary people.  The gun-control analogy is by no means perfect but I think this aspect applies: If you come upon a 12-year-old holding a gun, your first instinct is not going to be a calm and deliberate lecture on the dangers of holding a weapon one doesn't understand, but probably going to be screaming: "PUT THAT DOWN!!!!" or taking it away from the kid immediately.