936 réponses à ce sujet

[Bucky]

I learned how to fire a gun at summer camp when I was ten.

[Dabrikishaw]

Not really.  I see the value of both Mage freedom and Templar oversight, and I tend towards pro-Mage in my average playthroughs.

 

I just don't want to be associated with the pro-Mages on the BSN.

This is my stance as well. 

[(Disgusted noise.)]

No. Still have the same opinions I've always had.

 

Circles are necessary, but should only be temporarily mandatory. The Circle should be treated like an education where you learn how to use your magic safely and appropriately. Once you "graduate" you can either stay in the Circle or go live life as an ordinary citizen.

 

Circle management should primarily be run by other mages. The Templars should be treated as a police force for mages who are guilty of magical malpractice, and not jailers or the preemptive judges, juries, and executioners they have been.

 

Tranquility is abhorrent and should be outlawed unless chosen by the victim in lieu of execution in extreme cases. No one should ever be made tranquil against their will again.

[EmissaryofLies]

I keep reading these posts about Southern Mages mastering their powers before being let out of their circles.

 

How about mastering basic social skills and critical thinking first?

[raging_monkey]

I keep reading these posts about Southern Mages mastering their powers before being let out of their circles.
 
How about mastering basic social skills and critical thinking first?

circles of old failed that part lol

[Bucky]

I keep reading these posts about Southern Mages mastering their powers before being let out of their circles.

 

How about mastering basic social skills and critical thinking first?

You're never going to be fully socialized while inside a cloister.

 

This is also a problem with the Chantry.  Most of the clerics were given to the Chantry as children and grew up isolated from the outside world.  You can't make decisions about regular people from this position.  Not good ones anyway.

 

(Blows my mind that priests give marriage counseling in the real world.)

[EmissaryofLies]

You're never going to be fully socialized while inside a cloister.

 

This is also a problem with the Chantry.  Most of the clerics were given to the Chantry as children and grew up isolated from the outside world.  You can't make decisions about regular people from this position.  Not good ones anyway.

 

(Blows my mind that priests give marriage counseling in the real world.)

 

Definitely not fully, but the basics aren't hard. Maybe sitting some of those Libertarians down and informing them that there are better ways than 'rawr Pride Demon' and 'rawr manipulative rebellion' to communicate their displeasure.

 

They should use Vivienne as a shining example of what they can achieve with just a bit of grace and cunning.

[Bucky]

Yeah, but that's the difference between being told something, and figuring it out for yourself.  The first might improve behavior, but without the understanding that comes from the second, decision-making skill will still be wanting.

[EmissaryofLies]

Yeah, but that's the difference between being told something, and figuring it out for yourself.  The first might improve behavior, but without the understanding that comes from the second, decision-making skill will still be wanting.

 

True.

[Vit246]

I keep reading these posts about Southern Mages mastering their powers before being let out of their circles.

 

How about mastering basic social skills and critical thinking first?

 

Perhaps the Circles should quit doing that thing where mages are mostly locked up and isolated in their towers most of the time and let them regularly interact with public society daily? Like the Rivain Circle used to do before it got exterminated for doing that?

[Ieldra]

Have I changed my mind? Not really. I'm still pro-mage and as a mage, I'm still refusing to be kept imprisoned by an institution whose ideology I detest.

 

What has changed is my attitude to the opposition: being pro-templar is now a reasonable alternative I can roleplay without making me feel like a fascist. It'll still be rare in my playthroughs since the main problem for me is the Chantry's ideology and that hasn't changed, but I can now do it.

 

So I think the picture is more balanced now, and that's good.

[EmissaryofLies]

Perhaps the Circles should quit doing that thing where mages are mostly locked up and isolated in their towers most of the time and let them regularly interact with public society daily? Like the Rivain Circle used to do before it got exterminated for doing that?

 

Just because it worked for Rivain does not mean it will work for Andrastian Thedas. Different cultures and all that.

 

I wouldn't trust the Andrastians to "interact" with anything without templars in sight. I doubt it would take long for someone to blow something up or summon a demon, or practice blood magic. Take your pick.

[Sable Rhapsody]

I was pretty moderate about the mage/templar thing after DA2 and Asunder; IMO DA2 highlighted the worst of both sides, and Asunder portrayed both more sympathetically.

 

But in DA:I, I have a hard time siding with the mages mostly because I don't want a worldstate where Fiona is alive and in my keep.  I honestly don't know what the deal is with Fiona.  I wouldn't say I *liked* her in her novel appearances; she's a difficult character to like.  But I got where she was coming from, and I could at least respect her.  In DA:I, I just wanted to throttle her.  And I can only do that if I side with the templars 

[EmissaryofLies]

I was pretty moderate about the mage/templar thing after DA2 and Asunder; IMO DA2 highlighted the worst of both sides, and Asunder portrayed both more sympathetically.

 

But in DA:I, I have a hard time siding with the mages mostly because I don't want a worldstate where Fiona is alive and in my keep.  I honestly don't know what the deal is with Fiona.  I wouldn't say I *liked* her in her novel appearances; she's a difficult character to like.  But I got where she was coming from, and I could at least respect her.  In DA:I, I just wanted to throttle her.  And I can only do that if I side with the templars 

 

Loved Fiona in her novel appearances and her codex; I couldn't wait to meet the Grand Enchanter. Then I got to see where she would take the rebels in inquisition and it broke my f*cking heart.

[MisterJB]

Loved Fiona in her novel appearances and her codex; I couldn't wait to meet the Grand Enchanter. Then I got to see where she would take the rebels in inquisition and it broke my f*cking heart.

 

I'm honestly curious, where did you expect her to take them?

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

I'm honestly curious, where did you expect her to take them?

 

To Tevinter?

[Ieldra]

I'm honestly curious, where did you expect her to take them?

Not into an alliance with Tevinter under these conditions. It makes little sense for a freedom fighter to oppose one kind of slavery only to accept another one. I suspect mind control. Some of the scenes with Alexius and Fiona are rather suggestive.

[EmissaryofLies]

I'm honestly curious, where did you expect her to take them?

 

Anywhere but to the very people that ultimately inspired the Southern circles in the first place. I do not buy Leliana's "It was that or die!" rebuttal. Fiona had Redcliffe at her disposal and a probable ally in the Alistair(which was just another stab in the gut, thank you Bioware) which she threw away.

 

Long story short, she would have been better off taking her chances then outright committing Treason.

 

But she's just another notch in the "f*ck the Libertarians" belt that Bioware is rockin'.

[raging_monkey]

Time magic

[Vit246]

Just because it worked for Rivain does not mean it will work for Andrastian Thedas. Different cultures and all that.

 

I wouldn't trust the Andrastians to "interact" with anything without templars in sight. I doubt it would take long for someone to blow something up or summon a demon, or practice blood magic. Take your pick.

Well obviously the Andrastian culture needs to stop doing that thing where mages are stigmatized for being mages, then we'll get somewhere.

 

I think you vastly overestimate the spontaneous-ness and the malicious sinister intentions of most average mages. 

[EmissaryofLies]

Well obviously the Andrastian culture needs to stop doing that thing where mages are stigmatized for being mages, then we'll get somewhere.

 

I think you vastly overestimate the spontaneous-ness and the malicious sinister intentions of most average mages. 

 

That's just it; they keep feeding them reasons to hate mages. One step forward, here comes Uldred, three steps back. Two steps forward, here comes Anders, five steps back. Three steps forward, here comes Fiona and the Venatori, ten steps back. They constantly reinforce Templar/Chantry beliefs and then wonder why no one likes them.

 

And unfortunately it only takes one mistake, one screw up, and they are all painted with the same brush.

 

It's not right but that's the way of White Andraste.

 

Perhaps if the Mages paid more attention and got rid of their Uldreds, Anders, Adrians and Fionas, they'd have a better standing. Legs to stand on, if you will.

[Sir JK]

My position on the whole matter has not changed. I was always a moderate leaning towards pro-circle/templar, but one that considered the entire system in dire need of reforms (if not outright "start over"). The idea behind circles and templars was solid, and their purpose, though regretful, neccessary. But the system as it looked like in Kirkwall was so utterly broken and twisted from what it was supposed to be that not only was it immoral but also counterproductive. That there were heroes, utter monsters and just plan people on both sides of the fence was something I already accepted.

 

As such, the actions of the mages did neither disappoint nor surprise me. They acted exactly as I thought they would... finding their hands dirtied by the desperation of their situation. Even with a safe haven in Redcliffe (nice touch that, I think. Ties in well with the mage boon) the templars were always the side better prepared for war.

While I did find the whole time-magic side of it all a bit convulated, the mages accepting the patronage of a magister was completely plausible to me. Stupid? Well, yes. But you can call them out on it, and Fiona's half-hearted defence of it suggested to me that deep down she agreed. But they were desperate and desperate people don't have the luxury to wait for better options (I also like the contrast between Confident Val Royeux Fiona who knows the mages aren't primarily blamed vs. Beaten down Redcliffe Fiona who's just starting to realise the price of her actions).

This coupled with Minaeve, Vivienne, Linnea, that other mage in Redlciffe that contrasts Linnea, Connor and Dorian all helped make flesh out the mage rebellion wonderfully.

A large group looking at their own desire's and needs and making the same stupid decisions as anyone else. People like any other in other words.

 

What happened to the Tranquil was just horrible though. Completely and utterly inexcusable. Both things.

 

The templars I found equally well handled (though their plot is better, I think. Timetravel is a messy plotdevice). It was filled with both the classinc tyrants we've all gotten to know (and "love"?) but also contained great examples of what templars were supposed to be. Lysette. Cassandra, Cullen, Ser Barris as well as the Templar authors in the codex that questions their own actions all helped flesh out the order immensely. That it was the templar orders flaws in terms of it's view on magic and mages that made it so easy to manipulate was very well handled.

I'd like to echo Ieldra above here and say that Bioware did great work making the order appear much more ambigous and grey.

 

So ultimately, I never changed position. Because both sides acted like I expected they would.

[Bucky]

Perhaps if the Mages paid more attention and got rid of their Uldreds, Anders, Adrians and Fionas, they'd have a better standing. Legs to stand on, if you will.

How are they supposed to identify them?

 

Uldred behaved, and even helped root out blood mages, prior to going off the deep end.

 

Anders probably has more black in his ledger than most of the people you meet in Dragon Age before he blows up the Chantry.  (In fact, he still comes out very much in the black in pure numbers of people he's saved versus killed.)

[Vit246]

That's just it; they keep feeding them reasons to hate mages. One step forward, here comes Uldred, three steps back. Two steps forward, here comes Anders, five steps back. Three steps forward, here comes Fiona and the Venatori, ten steps back. They constantly reinforce Templar/Chantry beliefs and then wonder why no one likes them.

 

And unfortunately it only takes one mistake, one screw up, and they are all painted with the same brush.

 

It's not right but that's the way of White Andraste.

 

Perhaps if the Mages paid more attention and got rid of their Uldreds, Anders, Adrians and Fionas, they'd have a better standing. Legs to stand on, if you will.

 

Eh. I might argue that the Chantry/Templar beliefs and their draconian system produces mages like Uldred, Anders, and Fiona. A Self-Fulfilling-Prophecy if you will. The Chantry/Templars start out with draconian measures, many mages resent these measures as unjust and try to do something about it, and the Chantry/Templars respond with even further draconian measures than before, and than mages repeat. A vicious cycle if you will.

[TK514]

How are they supposed to identify them?
 
Uldred behaved, and even helped root out blood mages, prior to going off the deep end.
 
Anders probably has more black in his ledger than most of the people you meet in Dragon Age before he blows up the Chantry.  (In fact, he still comes out very much in the black in pure numbers of people he's saved versus killed.)

Uh, no. Anders was pretty clearly a danger waiting to happen way before he got stupid with Justice. This is the man who tried to escape eight times, and unrepentantly made Circle life worse for everyone with his actions. He's lucky (and everyone else is unlucky) beyond belief that he lived under moderates like Irving and Gregoir.