936 réponses à ce sujet

[MoonDrummer]

Pfft surfacer problems

[Bucky]

Uh, no. Anders was pretty clearly a danger waiting to happen way before he got stupid with Justice. This is the man who tried to escape eight times, and unrepentantly made Circle life worse for everyone with his actions. He's lucky (and everyone else is unlucky) beyond belief that he lived under moderates like Irving and Gregoir.

He is responsible for what he does.

 

He is not responsible for how those in power react.  If we start down that path it goes in all directions.  And ultimately, the first move is made by the Chantry in establishing rules, Templars, Circles, etc.  So the chain of causation begins with them.

 

The man was laid back and only wanted to be left alone.  He's a devout Andrastian who deplores blood magic.  He is clearly in control of his power.  He's a healer, which is the school of magic that requires the most focus.

 

He was even fine with escaping, being recapture, escaping again....until summary execution suddenly came into play.

 

How many lives did he save as a Warden?

 

How many lives did he save running a free clinic for 6 years?

 

Anders was a manufactured problem.

 

 

The Chantry explosion was his first murder.

 

Leliana, Oghren, Sten, Zevran, Isabela, and Fenris (off the top of my head) are all murderers before you even meet them.

[GipsyDangeresque]

I used to be more moderate about mage issues, reform-minded. Trying to fix the Circle system and such. But Leliana sold me on complete freedom, and Vivienne pushed me away from the idea of moderation entirely. I think going all the way on that path might be frightening, but it's a leap of faith I've become more willing to take. I really think a LOT of the problems southern Thedas has had with mages was spurned on because of a fear of blood magic, and Tevinter, and mageocracies and slavery and horrible zombie armies. All of these things based purely on fear of "what-if." It's sort of an experiment, but I think if we remove restrictions entirely then the corruption and bad-decision making of Mages is going to similarly evaporate  as they cease to be put in terrible situations with no-win scenarios.

[TK514]

He is responsible for what he does.

 

He is not responsible for how those in power react.  If we start down that path it goes in all directions.  And ultimately, the first move is made by the Chantry in establishing rules, Templars, Circles, etc.  So the chain of causation begins with them.

 

The man was laid back and only wanted to be left alone.  He's a devout Andrastian who deplores blood magic.  He is clearly in control of his power.  He's a healer, which is the school of magic that requires the most focus.

 

He was even fine with escaping, being recapture, escaping again....until summary execution suddenly came into play.

 

How many lives did he save as a Warden?

 

How many lives did he save running a free clinic for 6 years?

 

Anders was a manufactured problem.

 

 

The Chantry explosion was his first murder.

 

Leliana, Oghren, Sten, Zevran, Isabela, and Fenris (off the top of my head) are all murderers before you even meet them.

 

By this logic, criminals aren't responsible for breaking the law, the lawmakers are at fault for making things illegal.

 

Anders knew what he was doing would have consequences, and did it anyway.  And when those consequences started to effect others, he continued doing it.

 

He didn't join the Wardens to help people, he joined to help himself.  He didn't care about and didn't want to be a Warden, he just took advantage of the Right of Conscription to give the finger to the Templars and the Circle.  The entire time we see him in the Wardens, he's whining about how terrible his life is, and then rather than staying in the Wardens, where he could have helped people, he fled.  AGAIN.

 

Frankly, I attribute any altruism on Anders' part in DAII to whatever remained of Justice, because in every other case Anders is a profoundly selfish individual.

[Bucky]

By this logic, criminals aren't responsible for breaking the law, the lawmakers are at fault for making things illegal. 

 

Anders knew what he was doing would have consequences, and did it anyway.  And when those consequences started to effect others, he continued doing it.

 

No, unless you're allowing for the Circle = prison analogy no one seems to like.  A criminal has done something to earn his confinement.  Whether or not one thinks Circle confinement is necessary, it is not about punishment or rehabilitation.  I'd say it's closer to complaining that you have to hurt other hostages because one escaped.  I mean, that's not a fair analogy either, but it's less off than yours.

 

(And it's not as if governments have never passed unncessary laws just so that the people they were aimed at would then break them so they could pounce.  This is how Andrew Johnson got impeached.)

 

Look, it's nice if people consider these things, but it's not their responsibility.  There is no moral obligation here.  In any case, people were already being abused.  Is he supposed to sit around because what, abuse of power won't snowball on its own?

 

 

 

He didn't join the Wardens to help people, he joined to help himself.  He didn't care about and didn't want to be a Warden, he just took advantage of the Right of Conscription to give the finger to the Templars and the Circle.  The entire time we see him in the Wardens, he's whining about how terrible his life is, and then rather than staying in the Wardens, where he could have helped people, he fled.  AGAIN.

 

Frankly, I attribute any altruism on Anders' part in DAII to whatever remained of Justice, because in every other case Anders is a profoundly selfish individual.

We could argue his motivations, but they're irrelevant.  It's actions that matter here.  He's done far far more good than bad...and far far far more good than many other DA companions, including ones like Leliana, who conceivably gets to run the whole shebang at the end of everything.

[EmissaryofLies]

Eh. I might argue that the Chantry/Templar beliefs and their draconian system produces mages like Uldred, Anders, and Fiona. A Self-Fulfilling-Prophecy if you will. The Chantry/Templars start out with draconian measures, many mages resent these measures as unjust and try to do something about it, and the Chantry/Templars respond with even further draconian measures than before, and than mages repeat. A vicious cycle if you will.

 

It actually started the other way 'round if we want to be circular.

 

Though self serving and manipulative, Vivienne is right about Southern Mages having it much better than they let on. They can resent the system all that they want. They've proven time and time again that they are incapable of acting in a reasonable fashion on their own. Just today I had some malcontents try to fight their way out of my keep when the Rebel Leader herself says that it's not so bad. So there goes the "It's just Fiona!" nonsense.

 

The ones that have brains in their heads need to lose the sympathy and go after the more aggressive individuals within their ranks. They either need to play the game as Vivienne did or prove their might and take their freedom. This meandering around claiming to be victims is tiresome.

 

I wonder if they ever grow tired of depending on the goodness of others.

[areopi]

I feel like it's really hard to be pro-Templar after DAO and DA2. The Templars in Kirkwall were just the worst, and they didn't really get enough justification in DAO. This is the first game where I've even considered supporting them. Also, after reading some of the back-story on the separatists I'm less trusting that mages can do it all on their own.

 

I agree with the poster above me I think. Templars are a necessary police force but the old circle jail system has to go.

[Vit246]

It actually started the other way 'round if we want to be circular.

 

Though self serving and manipulative, Vivienne is right about Southern Mages having it much better than they let on. They can resent the system all that they want. They've proven time and time again that they are incapable of acting in a reasonable fashion on their own. Just today I had some malcontents try to fight their way out of my keep when the Rebel Leader herself says that it's not so bad. So there goes the "It's just Fiona!" nonsense.

 

The ones that have brains in their heads need to lose the sympathy and go after the more aggressive individuals within their ranks. They either need to play the game as Vivienne did or prove their might and take their freedom. This meandering around claiming to be victims is tiresome.

 

I wonder if they ever grow tired of depending on the goodness of others.

 

I almost forgot. The mages formed the Circles first and then slowly the Chantry/Templars subverted their sovereignty and authority throughout the centuries while forging the modern circle system under their authority.

 

Plz define "reasonable fashion". Do you mean formal complaints, nonviolent protests, and "strongly-worded letters" against the abuses of the old Circle system? I'm pretty sure those got ignored since the Chantry and Templars hold all of the cards and leverages against a stigmatized group. And the Chantry disbanded any mage gatherings after Kirkwall. But besides that, I recall the College of Magi formally exercising a vote to declare independence but the Templars would not tolerate any of that so they totally disregarded any semblance of mage authority left. There's just no "reasoning" with these Chantry/Templar fanatics anymore. Violence is the only language and answer left.

 

I dunno about you, but personally Vivienne is a very exceptional exception to the rule of mages in Andrastian Thedas. Being a politician is hard. She managed to get transferred to Orlais close enough to the Empress and the Chantry's center of power. Rode on the coattails of a high-ranking noble. Became sanctioned by the Empress herself to bypass the legal ban on mages holding political power.

[Dean_the_Young]

I almost forgot. The mages formed the Circles first and then slowly the Chantry/Templars subverted their sovereignty and authority throughout the centuries while forging the modern circle system under their authority.

 

 

Actually, more like 'mages fucked up Thedas so bad that an apocalyptic Blight led to an age of terror in which mages were lynched by terrified mobs so much that total enforced societal isolation was madly popular.'
 

 

Plz define "reasonable fashion". Do you mean formal complaints, nonviolent protests, and "strongly-worded letters" against the abuses of the old Circle system? I'm pretty sure those got ignored since the Chantry and Templars hold all of the cards and leverages against a stigmatized group. And the Chantry disbanded any mage gatherings after Kirkwall. But besides that, I recall the College of Magi formally exercising a vote to declare independence but the Templars would not tolerate any of that so they totally disregarded any semblance of mage authority left. There's just no "reasoning" with these Chantry/Templar fanatics anymore. Violence is the only language and answer left.

 

 

With such an intelligent and informed perspective like that, no wonder Fiona lost the war so badly that selling the survivors into slavery seemed like a good idea.
 

 

I dunno about you, but personally Vivienne is a very exceptional exception to the rule of mages in Andrastian Thedas. Being a politician is hard. She managed to get transferred to Orlais close enough to the Empress and the Chantry's center of power. Rode on the coattails of a high-ranking noble. Became sanctioned by the Empress herself to bypass the legal ban on mages holding political power.

 

 

A  bit of luck, a lot more hard work, zero self-compromising, and working with and through the systems of the mundane legitimacy to win respect by their own standard.

 

Vivienne is truly a role model for her fellow mages.

[Br3admax]

Besides, mages have always been under Chantry authority. The Circle wasn't formed until well into the Chantry's founding. 

[EmissaryofLies]

 

Plz define "reasonable fashion". Do you mean formal complaints, nonviolent protests, and "strongly-worded letters" against the abuses of the old Circle system? I'm pretty sure those got ignored since the Chantry and Templars hold all of the cards and leverages against a stigmatized group. And the Chantry disbanded any mage gatherings after Kirkwall. But besides that, I recall the College of Magi formally exercising a vote to declare independence but the Templars would not tolerate any of that so they totally disregarded any semblance of mage authority left. There's just no "reasoning" with these Chantry/Templar fanatics anymore. Violence is the only language and answer left.

 

 

As it concerns the vote for independence, the Libertarians manipulated the vote to their favor. I of course agreed with these actions but with a combination of bad luck, atrocious strategy, and ignorance, the play crumbled to dust.

 

The take away from the state of Southern Mages is that they do not posses the strength or unity to take their freedom. Violence will only net them more restrictions and harsher punishments. They need a better strategy under a smarter leader. Selling out to a Spencer society is not good strategy. 

 

The Mages seem to have the violence part down pat. But what comes after it?

 

What was left of Justinia's camp was their best bet (though stubborn, Cassandra is reasonable, and Leliana is over the moon for mages) and finding connections through Redcliffe's Alistair would have been a fantastic start.

[Colonelkillabee]

My opinion on the mages was always on the side of control/regulating. However, in both DAO and DA2, I always sided with them. That didn't happen here however.

 

Fiona changed the game for me really, being like a female Anders. The mages just keep ****** up over and over on their own, and regardless of if it was really Fiona's fault or if she was being mind controlled, siding with Tevinter just took it too far. If she was mind controlled, then that's still on her for pushing for separation and purposefully aggravating the Templars without a plan for war and actually winning in the first place. I'm all for fighting for your rights, but not when all you bring to the table is blind chaos and death with no game plan. I can understand the frustration and why Anders did what he did, but Fiona saw the results of that, and knew it wouldn't end well. So when things again didn't end well in Redcliffe, I have a hard time feeling sympathetic for it.

 

I've never felt more like the mages need babysitters before than in this game. I do think mages should help govern themselves and be given positions within the chantry though.

 

But I've never been on board with completely disbanding the circles, and I'm sure as hell not now. Mages are very dangerous, and them being human beings with emotions and feelings is an unfortunate tragedy, but that doesn't trump the necessity for safety for the land as a whole.

[Willowhugger]

But I've never been on board with completely disbanding the circles, and I'm sure as hell not now. Mages are very dangerous, and them being human beings with emotions and feelings is an unfortunate tragedy, but that doesn't trump the necessity for safety for the land as a whole.

 

My view on the Mage/Templar conflict boiled down to this.

"Mages are selfish egotistical dangerous bastards."

 

and

"The Templars are just as bad."

 

Because however nice we see some of the Templars as being, we also get Cullen more or less showing how utterly nuts Lyrium use can get and the fact a huge number of Templars decided, along with mages, that murdering each other was better than protecting people.

 

The Mages definitely need babysitters.

Or at least, THESE SPECIFIC mages, do.

 

However, the Templars are not them.

Hence, the Inquisition.

[Steelcan]

My views have definitely become more pro Templar. I chalk it up mainly to the pro mage crowd on BSN

[VoidOfOne]

In my opinion the Jedi are evil!

 

...

 

I've always been pro-mage. After DA:!... I'm still pro-mage. Still think the Templars are wankers. I could always see both sides, but nothing has convinced me to change my mind on the matter.

 

I will say that this is the first game where I actually felt good about playing a mage. In Origins, I felt the mage origin was the weakest of the whole bunch, and in DA2 going mage got me... Carver...

 

So, yep, still pro-mage.

[Colonelkillabee]

They're all a bunch of tools if you ask me. I lean control of mages, but not pro templar. They're a necessary part of life to maintain order, like pooping.

[dragonflight288]

I'm personally not surprised the mages need babysitters. For the most part, most mages don't know how to interact with the world outside of a Circle because they have been so insulated from the world beyond the Circle's for too long. From early childhood into adulthood, taken from their families by templars or outright abandoned by their families because of their magic, they are put into an environment where they are watched night and day by an order who's very ideology blames them for the blights and is only a rumor away from possibly being considered for tranquility. Add in that, depending on the individual circle's and the Knight-Commander in charge, they are not even allowed to enter relations with each other and if they have children the baby is taken almost immediately after birth, and many mages become emotionally crippled or traumatized. Some find a great deal of comfort in the Circle's, some rebel against the system and feel stifled. Some feel protected because they know good templars, others feel abused because the templars they know are abusive sadists. 

 

Now the mages are free and are running through a world that fears them and their abilities. Thing is, most of these very mages are utterly disconnected from this world they find themselves in because they were never apart of it to begin with. They were kept separate, isolated, and they formed communities within the Circle's. Many mages didn't know how to respond. Some, like the ones wandering the Hinterlands, became consumed by their own greatness and power, and tried to set themselves up as gods among men. Kind of like that Volus in ME2 who was drugged and smelled his own greatness. lol. They got high on power. Other mages became desperate and followed Fiona. Others were manipulated. But whether they become allies or are conscripted, Cassandra has to tell that mage off who is having trouble adjusting to actual equality, and being expected to equally deal with his problems like everyone else. 

 

Short-term, it's a headache. But to help solve the problem long-term, the very disconnect mages experience must be addressed and resolved.

[Dean_the_Young]

Out of curiosity, has anyone found a source in DAI that shows that the rebel mages were brainwashed by Corypheus if you pick the Templar route?

 

I remember in the first few weeks, no one could find any source or means on mass brainwashing about the Fiona faction. I know you have the replacement to Sampson, who Corypheus planned to brainwash, but nothing equivalent to force-feeding red lyrium into the Templars.

[raging_monkey]

Out of curiosity, has anyone found a source in DAI that shows that the rebel mages were brainwashed by Corypheus if you pick the Templar route?
 
I remember in the first few weeks, no one could find any source or means on mass brainwashing about the Fiona faction.

somebody found a note in the wastes to my understanding been searching for hours, check the wiki

[Dean_the_Young]

Short-term, it's a headache. But to help solve the problem long-term, the very disconnect mages experience must be addressed and resolved.

 

There's more than one problem long-term. Teaching mages to socialize and move freely within mundane society only increases some of them.

[Dean_the_Young]

somebody found a note in the wastes to my understanding been searching for hours, check the wiki

 

The wiki makes a claim a lot, but I've yet to find a source other than a player guide.