48 réponses à ce sujet

[Baba]

I was just a few hours in at the time.. well, maybe 20 or 30 or so.

 

I spent the first part of my time doing all the side quests and completing all the zones.

 

Then I had nothing left to do except for the main quest (which I know by experience is usually very very short in Bioware games).

 

Anyway, it was nice at first but then OMG how bloody frustrating!!! I don't think I've ever been so frustrated with a game before.

 

To start off with, even though the hero does make certain important decisions which affect the story (ex: choose who stays in the fade, or which person to support in the masquerade), there are some very very important decisions for which you have absolutely no choice.

 

That wouldn't be so bad if it weren't choices that your "hero" is making, which are supposed to be yours.

 

The whole idea about the keep.com was great I think, and it promised to lead to a game in which, if there ever was a dragon age 4, the story would be more or less custom built as well.

 

I wasn't expecting the game to throw away one of it's most notoriously appreciated core features, especially in an RPG.

 

It's completely linear, the choices you make have some impact but it's more to do with who approves or dissaproves than anything else. And that, in an RPG, not only an RPG but a "game of the year" RPG, not only that but a game made by Bioware who has a history who has a legacy and a reputation which was built on exactly the opposite to this is extremely dissapointing.

 

If you're still wondering what I'm talking about, I'll give you an example.

 

At one point in the game Morrigan joins the inquisition.

 

For a start, you can't refuse. After that you can't kick her out either but it doesn't stop there. She has a personal interest in helping you out and the story makes it obvious and you can see it coming a mile away.

 

And when the situation arrives, you have also no choice but go along with it.

 

For those who want me to spell it out, she joins the inquisition mainly because she wants to use the wall of sorrows and when you reach it you have no choice but to let it use it or use it yourself.

 

Not only that but after this she becomes instrumental in the plot, I almost felt like stoping playing all together right then and there, there were already many things which were adding up but this made the gaming experience incredibly frustrating.

 

A similar thing happened in the main story line in a previous Dragon Age and Morrigan suggested that you sleep with her so she could carry a child when the Archdemon was killed which would avoid getting a warden killed, you at least a) got to kick her out the party and refuse....

 

As much as the game was beautiful, had a lot of very interesting aspects (to many to get into actually), that such a fundamental core principle not only in an rpg but Bioware rpg was ignored is shocking to me.

 

I basically feel like I've been cheated and that any decision made in the game was almost always purely illusional.

[StrayChild83]

Well it is true, you don't really have any choises, the story is forced upon you the way it is and you can't really change anything about it and not only that but also it is very same for all classes.

[b10d1v]

All valid points  I believe pulling team communications with the player a bad move, because that dynamic creates the illusion of building relationships with friends and comrades.  

 

I've had the game about a month now and still have not finished it, not because it is long, but because of instability issues that crop up from various conditions.  One being broken quests where npcs or items are missing and the quest can not be completed.  The game engine apparently reacts very badly to open ended quests and you know that you are screwed when game instability issues begin to clog various systems and you see/hear "odd" behavior and if its a profile save, things go very badly.  Got to 21 with last character and it's so buggy, I can not work with it! Tried to start a new character and DA:I crashes and burns.  How many people can't even start the game? Almost half of the email help questions I get are just that!

 

Sure, controls might have issues in any game, but no one would have expected a release with RPG elements is such bad shape!  I have beta tested very crude games w/o any of these issues!

[SkyKing]

Yup, the game has zero replayability.  Most choices have no consequences, and everything you do that is NOT any of the green fade story quest/zones, has ZERO effect on the game.  Even main story areas end up the same too.  If you save people in haven, they leave and you get npc replacements, if you don't save people in haven then it makes it seem those replacements are due to them dying. At first I was mad about the game, then I got to skyhold, I thought okay maybe the game will be good now, then noticed how decisions did nothing and never materialized what was promised, then the game ended.  Thanks for posting back.  Good for people to see those who sing praises for the game are realizing they were duped.  

[Baba]

yea it seems like making an illusion that the player makes choices is trendy amongst devs at the moment, I personally think it's because of slackers.

 

Like you mentioned @SkyKing this basically means there isn't much replayability value, which is really a shame, I can't begin to express how dissapointed I am.

[Fragoos]

Whenever a npc is not there i save and reload. Fixes it most times. Choices matter as much as in Mass effect,not at all. And why bother? Just load a world state and be done with it. It is all about new players i think, playing DAI without having touched the former games and still get the full experience. Can not please everybody and the keep must give fans their fix.

[ashwind]

I share your feelings OP. In most games, we do not really have a choice. It will always end in a predetermined way. I am fine with that really. 

 

Unfortunately, the "illusion of choice" is especially painful in Dragon Age because the writer is trolling us (I made similar a post describing this feeling).

 

Firstly, BW said that Dragon Age is the story about Thedas. Each Dragon Age game will have a new protagonist. Unfortunately, the writers like their characters so much that they will rob us of our story. They never end a story properly. They have to keep bringing Morrigan, Flemeth, Leliana and perhaps now Solas back to troll us because they plan on ending the continuation of -OUR- story but not -THEIRS-. That is why we cannot make -REAL- impactful decisions.

 

If I were BW, I would have "ended" Orgins. Really ended it. We will only hear about The Warden-Commander of the 5th Blight and his companions from a far away place; like Kirkwall. We will never meet or interact with them in any important way. The Warden-Commander disappeared with Morrigan never to be seen again is a proper ending. The Warden-Commander died is a proper ending. The Warden-Commander went crazy and killed everyone including Felmeth and Morrigan and all his companions and now half of Feralden is in chaos is a proper ending. 

 

Such decisions can only be made if Bioware is true to "Dragon Age is the story about Thedas" not about the Warden, not about Hawke and not about the Inquisitor; if that were true, it should also not be about their characters as well.

 

During the Mass Effect 3 drama, I think Bioware said something along the line that ME is not only the player's story but their's as well. I hope they listen to themselves, Dragon Age is not only the writers story but our's as well. End it properly and move on. BW stop trying to bring your characters back to life; to some Leliana died! Let us make real decision. You should not care about how we mess up your "grand plan". Oh no... they want to kill Morrigan, they stabbed her, they want to destroy the Chantry and rule as the 1st Dwarven Male Divine. Why cant we do any of those? Because our protagonist are the REAL NPC in their story, they are less important than.... Cullen who is a wimp in DAO.

 

New protagonist for each Dragon Age game works best if each are independent and share only general information and rumors. Sorry, not "works best", if should be, it will only work if each story is independent. Just make epilogues to tell us how our decision changed the fate of the protagonist and the world. Then move to a foreign nation and write another story.

 

p/s: Or they can be honest and tell us up front that we are simply a pawn in their story and dont tell us how our decision may matter. A promise near impossible to keep from the beginning and becoming more impossible with each new installment. 

[Baba]

the choice thing is important to me because it is what makes an RPG an RPG, it started before the computer games with "choose your own adventure" books, I don't want to be led through a nice story, I want to actually identify to the hero and make my own..

 

Some may laugh and find it childish but you forget that's how RPGs used to be... from Fallout to Planescape Torment to Baldur's Gate, if it didn't have true open world none linear environment it at least gave the hero a ROLE in the game.

 

DA:I Tries to blend open world with them park and it could have been awesome, but it was in my eyes a big failure.

 

As to ME 3 I didn't like it for the record, not compared to the older ME1 and 2.

 

And that's the thing that has been said in many threads, which I even said in a post I made about how I loved the game at start. Bioware became famous in particular because of their ground breaking games, they are the ones that introduced choice in discussions, it was even present back in Jade Empire (which was an awesome game btw). I don't know if it's becaues of EA but it does seem like they've sold their soul now.

[Dubya75]

So let me get this straight - you want a game in which you have a choice and different outcome on everything, even plot critical characters joining the story? And of course, that would not be enough. Every subsequent situation where a choice should be apparent, you will also want to be able to make a choice...etc etc.

Can you imagine the huge amount of content you are asking for? If every situation gives you a branching choice, you can do the math and realize that the game would have to grow exponentially in size to account for every choice you may want to make.

 

This is simply NOT realistic. It was not possible in DAO and it sure wasn't in DA2. Or do you really think DAO wasn't linear?

Compared to the previous games (and I am nowhere near finished) there are already a lot more variation and branching than what we have seen before.

 

This game is fantastically crafted, but for some people it will simply never be good enough, I guess.

[Baba]

So let me get this straight - you want a game in which you have a choice and different outcome on everything, even plot critical characters joining the story? And of course, that would not be enough. Every subsequent situation where a choice should be apparent, you will also want to be able to make a choice...etc etc.

Can you imagine the huge amount of content you are asking for? If every situation gives you a branching choice, you can do the math and realize that the game would have to grow exponentially in size to account for every choice you may want to make.

 

This is simply NOT realistic. It was not possible in DAO and it sure wasn't in DA2. Or do you really think DAO wasn't linear?

Compared to the previous games (and I am nowhere near finished) there are already a lot more variation and branching than what we have seen before.

 

This game is fantastically crafted, but for some people it will simply never be good enough, I guess.

 

Sorry but you must be young, because as mentioned that is actually how games used to be. I'm talking DA 1 ME 1 Fallout, Baldur's Gate, Planescape Torment, Jade Empire and many more, most even were made by bioware, but the company now is not the same as it used to be.

 

 

Edit: Sorry didn't see that you hadn't finished the game, I absolutely loved the game at first, but I'm pretty sure you'll get what I mean once you finish it, and especially if you play it more than once trying to do things differently.

[SkyKing]

So let me get this straight - you want a game in which you have a choice and different outcome on everything, even plot critical characters joining the story? And of course, that would not be enough. Every subsequent situation where a choice should be apparent, you will also want to be able to make a choice...etc etc.

Can you imagine the huge amount of content you are asking for? If every situation gives you a branching choice, you can do the math and realize that the game would have to grow exponentially in size to account for every choice you may want to make.

 

This is simply NOT realistic. It was not possible in DAO and it sure wasn't in DA2. Or do you really think DAO wasn't linear?

Compared to the previous games (and I am nowhere near finished) there are already a lot more variation and branching than what we have seen before.

 

This game is fantastically crafted, but for some people it will simply never be good enough, I guess.

 

[Ascendra]

Sorry but you must be young, because as mentioned that is actually how games used to be. I'm talking DA 1 ME 1 Fallout, Baldur's Gate, Planescape Torment, Jade Empire and many more, most even were made by bioware, but the company now is not the same as it used to be.

 

 

Edit: Sorry didn't see that you hadn't finished the game, I absolutely loved the game at first, but I'm pretty sure you'll get what I mean once you finish it, and especially if you play it more than once trying to do things differently.

 

What do these old games have to do with their point?

Dubya is right in saying Bioware could never account for every possible choice that the player makes in one game and then transport them to another.

JE did not continue, every choice you made there did not continue into a new game because there is no JE2. Planescape Torment did not continue, with all the possible endings your story finishes, there's no PT2. While there is Fallout 2, there is almost zero impact from the first Fallout because the second game happens couple of generations after the first game. Sure there are a few things and characters that talk about F1 but the flow of events is as similar as what DA did with choices from game to hame. And Baldur's Gate did not carry anything into the second part other than yourself and your companions. Besides you couldnt even select the companions you want at the start of BG2 much less keep all of them alive. 

If you want really meaningful choices in a game, there should only be ONE game which ends with meaningful choices, no sequel. I would have like a game like BG2 which lets you become a friggin god, but there is a reason why there is no BG3. A game where your character is a god would be drastically different to a game where your character is human suffering from loss of god essence. Same with DA, your choices matter less because there are sequels, and Bioware has to balance the choices to make them feel impactful yet go in line with a story they want to continue telling.

[SkyKing]

What do these old games have to do with their point?

Dubya is right in saying Bioware could never account for every possible choice that the player makes in one game and then transport them to another.

JE did not continue, every choice you made there did not continue into a new game because there is no JE2. Planescape Torment did not continue, with all the possible endings your story finishes, there's no PT2. While there is Fallout 2, there is almost zero impact from the first Fallout because the second game happens couple of generations after the first game. Sure there are a few things and characters that talk about F1 but the flow of events is as similar as what DA did with choices from game to hame. And Baldur's Gate did not carry anything into the second part other than yourself and your companions. Besides you couldnt even select the companions you want at the start of BG2 much less keep all of them alive. 

If you want really meaningful choices in a game, there should only be ONE game which ends with meaningful choices, no sequel. I would have like a game like BG2 which lets you become a friggin god, but there is a reason why there is no BG3. A game where your character is a god would be drastically different to a game where your character is human suffering from loss of god essence. Same with DA, your choices matter less because there are sequels, and Bioware has to balance the choices to make them feel impactful yet go in line with a story they want to continue telling.

 

Tell me more about the choices in DAI and how they change the game.  No need to have a different outcome for EVERY possibility, but tell the ones that do.  O you can't can you because you haven't even finished 1 play yet?  Here's a little hint, there aren't any! Not every outcome, not many outcomes, not  a few, just NONE! Play it again, and it ends up the same way.  The side zones don't have outcomes at all, enjoy the end games 3 slides that ignore everything you did the whole game and your illusion that things mattered will be shattered, especially one your 2nd run when different choices result in the same outcomes.  

[Ascendra]

Except that in all those games mentioned before your choices meant something BECAUSE the games ended and there were no sequels.

In DAO your choices only seemed important, in fact they weren't, they were only altering the final slides. The results of those choices are almost non-existent in DA:I. Your choices in DAO DID NOT MATTER in the long run. 

 

Im not defending Inquisition, I'm saying its impossible to create a game with truly meaningful choices because Bioware continues to create new games in DA universe. They have a story they want to tell, and any game they create will go along with that story, meaning that the story will always be linear. Any choice which is too important or can potentially affect the world will be swept under a rug really fast. I thought OGB in DAO was important and Bioware has shown me that it meant nothing. 

As I said I would have liked a game with choices similar to Torment or JE or any other such old game, but with current Bioware storytelling its impossible to get them.

 

Oh, and I finished Inquisition, so don't presume you know anything about me or my playstyle.

[Baba]

What do these old games have to do with their point?

 

His point is that it wouldn't be possible to implement choice and consequence. My point is that it has been done already in many games, these games are an example of it.

[Ascendra]

His point is that it wouldn't be possible to implement choice and consequence. My point is that it has been done already in many games, these games are an example of it.

 

And I tried to point out that the true life-shattering choices in those games could be pulled off because there were no sequels, the writers were pretty much free to make our character as meaningful as possible (i.e. Baldur's Gate god ending). Granted some choices were there due to game mechanics, like in PST getting the best ending if you manage to top your scores in Charisma, Intelligence and Wisdom which later opened the required dialogue options. In DA its impossible because your stats mean nothing other than battle scores.

 

Inquisition does have a good choice and consequence system, you have characters change, the world responds, there's ambient dialogue, new war table missions, just the choices seem not as meaningful as we would like BECAUSE the writers want to continue their story further in the next installments. The further the story goes, the more difficult it will be to account for all previous choices and implement new meaningful ones. Thus I gave DAO example - the choices we thought meaningful in DAO virtually mean zero in Inquisition.

[Tensai]

Well it is true, you don't really have any choises, the story is forced upon you the way it is and you can't really change anything about it and not only that but also it is very same for all classes.

 

Story is always forced upon you, isn't it? You can only choose between the paths which writers have already chosen for you.

[Baba]

Story is always forced upon you, isn't it? You can only choose between the paths which writers have already chosen for you.

 

Well at least there are paths, not in DA:1 :/

 

Like I wrote in my example, you could choose in DA:O whether to follow Morrigan's plan or no, you can't in DA:I

 

@Ascendra, Inquistion offers no consequences to any choice, no change of plot which depends on your decision. 

 

I don't think it's so much an issue of sequels, I think it has more to do with time. It takes time to give freedom to the player, a lot of time I would imagine.

 

Thing is older games placed their money on this kind of thing, but I think that's also beause they didn't have costly graphics, acting and stuff to spend money on.

 

I made a thread sharing what I thought was good and bad about the game here :

 

http://forum.bioware...sible-spoilers/

 

I don't really feel like typing some of it again but you're welcome to read the "the bad" side of the post which gives details and examples of what I mean.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The choices we made in Mass Effect 1 and 2 and they tried to accommodate in Mass Effect 3 made it very difficult to write a decent story. Plot critical characters could be dead, thus forcing more resources to be used to replace them. Sure you had different outcomes in different parts of the story like the Genophage: Wrex or Wreav, Mordin or Padok; and Legion could have been sold to Cerberus or dead. Tali could have been dead.

 

So you ended up with resources being used to write alternate storylines and money spent on other voice actors. That's time. Then the game got rushed from Thessia onward to the ending. And in the end we got the "what is your favorite color" ending. Time and resources. The writers would have had to tie it up into a single ending sequence anyway, but just adjust it slightly based upon what you did earlier. Everything always has to be tied up at the end unless you're doing an open ending.

 

So certain minor things in the world condition they can bring forward. Major things they canonize for the sake of writing a cohesive story. I'd rather have a good story because I have about 8 playthroughs of DAO and they're all different. And throw in Awakenings? They'd have to charge $100 for the base game.

[TristynTrine]

Completed the game once, got to skyhold on second character and stopped. I may have enjoyed the scenery of those zones and went through those fetch quests. If only they had made them slightly smaller and had an actual story, it might of had replayability. But as it is now, it's too boring to replay through all that. The first time was bad enough. So whatever... and our choices don't matter. lol

[Ascendra]

@Baba

I understand and I partially agree with the part where such a visually rich game as DA requires tremendous resources to be used on things other than meaningful choices and consequences. Old games had that freedom that new games don't, I miss them. Will definitely read the long post you linked.

For now I guess we have to agree to disagree.

[shubnabub]

Choice is dead in bioware games. That became pretty clear with the ME series. They started with the best intentions and then realized producing a AAA game that branches significantly based on choice is too expensive. It means having massive parts of the game that simply go unused if one choice or the other is made, which means having to double or triple or quadruple the length of each branching so that players get a full experience whichever choices they make, basically requiring double, triple, or quadruple the budget or dev time. 

 

So by ME3 you start to realize that all the talk about choice has become so much empty promise and every play-through yields pretty much the same basic linear set of quests with a few significant but non-branching outcome changes based on choice (whether the geth/quarians live/die). That's what a AAA game can afford, a quick shift in direction that results in a slightly different cutscene and then no more dealing with that afterward. 

 

I've noticed in DAI, when having to reload before a conversation, virtually any response you give yields the same reaction dialogue. Your choice of what to say is just flavor and has 0 impact on the response. So even that little bit of reactive storytelling is mostly absent. 80k lines of linear dialogue. 

[Baba]

What's really a travesty is that if you hated morrigan or leliana, now you are stuck with them. UGH. I never liked Morrigan and now, she will be in my war room every time I enter it until I do the wilds and I was planning on mucking about for a while doing many other things and going to the wilds way later because frankly I don't care about their story and don't care to race to the well. The story goes downhill from the palace anyway. But now I have morrigan in my war room and I can't stand her and I know she's using me. I can only imagine how people who didn't like Leliana feel.

 

lol same as me, every time we spoke I did all I could to ****** her off, that's when I started to understand how the game was really made and the illusion shatered.