48 réponses à ce sujet

[Sriep]

Is it just me, but I prefer dark Leliana. Its kind of nice to know however scary the enemy is, you've got someone even scaryer on your team.

[Flatrid]

I think it was great actually. You can really change the character's outlook without knowing about it. I think it was an awesome move on Bioware's part because it ensures replayability.

I remained silent in that first conversation because I let her do her job and thought she knew best. As much as I like new ruthless Leliana I want to replay and try a different approach with her.

 

Seems excessive to me the change of a character just for not having spoken in a dialogue.

[InfinitePaths]

In order to make her love flowers and pudding again you need to convince her that killing isn't always the answer, mercy should be shown and that she should care for her agents.

 

If you make all these 3 dialouge options with her, she will not be cold any longer.

[Jukaga]

Too much weight is put on that initial conversation in Haven. Why is it so dark to deal with an actual traitor by killing them? This is pretty standard practice, especially in a medieval-like environment. If my spymaster wasn't liquidating treasonous assets I'd want a new spymaster.

[abr]

Oh wowser... i didn't think there was another Leliana in there, i was kinda bugged by her grumpiness after all those hours we spent smoochin in origin... Anywho, does her "unhardened" self have some more dialogue options?

[Lintton]

Interestingly I've had "dark" Leiliana for most of my game and now she's suddenly seems to be have perked up a bit after a conversation with her, which surprised me, because her response to the conversation itself was pretty dour.

I guess its fair to say that she can't be a workoholic forever. Or maybe my leliana's different?
Does leliana retain her faith in that section when she's being questioned regardless?

[Gill Kaiser]

People are looking at this the wrong way. You're not "accidentally hardening" Leliana by letting her kill Butler. She's already hardened, and has been for years due to her work as the Left Hand of the Divine, and now after suffering Justinia's death.

What you are presented with in DA:I is the option to soften her, through maintaining a consistent platform that counters hers. If you don't do that, you haven't failed, you just haven't succeeded.

[Kalshane]

I guess its fair to say that she can't be a workoholic forever. Or maybe my leliana's different?
Does leliana retain her faith in that section when she's being questioned regardless?

Maybe. It was just weird to have her suddenly laughing and speaking in a perkier voice after being so grim and morose previously with no real indication what could have changed.

[Aurok]

Is this all seriously determined by one relatively throwaway incident right at the start of the game? iirc I chose to remain silent because I came in half way through a conversation which had nothing to do with me, I didn't know the context of and I wasn't in charge then anyway.

 

She's since slit the throats of two unarmed people right in front of me, despite me -her commander- expressly directing her not to. She is now full on pantomime villain and plotting to kidnap an innocent child right in front of me and, again, I have no choice to overrule her and tell her to cut that s*** out? I don't know what they were going for here but this arc to me just feels unjustified and not working as intended.

 

Is it possible to redeem Leliana from here, or kick her out of the Inquisition entirely for being insubordinate and a bit mental? The amount of railroading in this game has me struggling to even play through to the end of the story.

[leaguer of one]

Spoiler

There's also another conversation at the shyhold. One about if it was a good idea to sacrifice her agents or not to save haven. I told he she did not need to and we would of lost haven and the agents. She alot more open now.

[Jaron Oberyn]

Is it just me, but I prefer dark Leliana. Its kind of nice to know however scary the enemy is, you've got someone even scaryer on your team.

I can't help but feel guilty about corrupting Leliana in this game. But I agree, hardened Leliana is a badass. 

[Verrenus]

Is this all seriously determined by one relatively throwaway incident right at the start of the game? iirc I chose to remain silent because I came in half way through a conversation which had nothing to do with me, I didn't know the context of and I wasn't in charge then anyway.

 

She's since slit the throats of two unarmed people right in front of me, despite me -her commander- expressly directing her not to. She is now full on pantomime villain and plotting to kidnap an innocent child right in front of me and, again, I have no choice to overrule her and tell her to cut that s*** out? I don't know what they were going for here but this arc to me just feels unjustified and not working as intended.

 

Is it possible to redeem Leliana from here, or kick her out of the Inquisition entirely for being insubordinate and a bit mental? The amount of railroading in this game has me struggling to even play through to the end of the story.

 

I just saw what you meant for myself and I couldn't help but hate the fact that BioWare did not warn us more about that silly conversation choice 80 hours ago! Of course I remained silent as well - I had barely started playing the game, I didn't want to start on the wrong foot and leave traitors to live from the beginning and possibly damaging my later attempts at saving the world. Besides, Leliana specifically asked that it be done quick and painless, which did seem pretty fair to me.

 

That being said, there is a long way to go from ordering traitors to be mercifully executed to personally slitting throats right in front of me after specifically telling her to stop because it's a bad idea! I can understand BioWare wanting Leliana to be a strong character, but this is ridiculous. This is certainly not the Leliana I liked having around in Origins and I do hope I will be able to do something about this later on to turn her around. If not, hopefully the Keep will let us choose if she's been softened or not! 

[Alejandrawrr]

I think it was great actually. You can really change the character's outlook without knowing about it. I think it was an awesome move on Bioware's part because it ensures replayability.

I remained silent in that first conversation because I let her do her job and thought she knew best. As much as I like new ruthless Leliana I want to replay and try a different approach with her.

Totally agree. It also makes sense if you've completed her character arc including the Valence thingy that it's easy to inadvertently "harden" her (or rather, let her harden herself without an intervention). And I was just about to post a wall'o'text explaining why, then realized this was NO Spoilers zone 

[Alejandrawrr]

I just saw what you meant for myself and I couldn't help but hate the fact that BioWare did not warn us more about that silly conversation choice 80 hours ago! Of course I remained silent as well - I had barely started playing the game, I didn't want to start on the wrong foot and leave traitors to live from the beginning and possibly damaging my later attempts at saving the world. Besides, Leliana specifically asked that it be done quick and painless, which did seem pretty fair to me.

 

That being said, there is a long way to go from ordering traitors to be mercifully executed to personally slitting throats right in front of me after specifically telling her to stop because it's a bad idea! I can understand BioWare wanting Leliana to be a strong character, but this is ridiculous. This is certainly not the Leliana I liked having around in Origins and I do hope I will be able to do something about this later on to turn her around. If not, hopefully the Keep will let us choose if she's been softened or not! 

That makes it realistic. In real life, actions or inaction can have major ramifications, even ones we didn't exactly foresee, and even if the course of action we took seemed justified at the time.

[Verrenus]

That makes it realistic. In real life, actions or inaction can have major ramifications, even ones we didn't exactly foresee, and even if the course of action we took seemed justified at the time.

 

What bearing does real life have on a game about embodying the Second Coming and saving a fantasy world from its doom!? Furthermore, how is it that every other important choice in said game is clearly highlighted as having possible ramifications later on, which are even hinted at in descriptions above each choice?

 

If BioWare wanted Dragon Age to be realistic, they would have made every choice a blind one, just like this initial one with Leliana, with absolutely no indication regarding their possible outcome. Since they didn't, however, it can only mean that they went for pure shock value just to make their game appear more dark and mature, without realising that there's nothing mature about slitting the throats of defenseless people while disobeying direct orders in an end-of-the-world scenario! It's just cheap and disgusting. 

[Fredward]

I VASTLY prefer Darth Leliana, she makes a kickass Divine. Kickass and terrifying.

[Verrenus]

I VASTLY prefer Darth Leliana, she makes a kickass Divine. Kickass and terrifying.

 

And the fact you have the choice to influence her into becoming that is perfectly fine, but at least signal it out BioWare! 

[Ascendra]

People are looking at this the wrong way. You're not "accidentally hardening" Leliana by letting her kill Butler. She's already hardened, and has been for years due to her work as the Left Hand of the Divine, and now after suffering Justinia's death.

What you are presented with in DA:I is the option to soften her, through maintaining a consistent platform that counters hers. If you don't do that, you haven't failed, you just haven't succeeded.

 

This. As much as it was nice to soften Leliana in DAO it was only what... 2 years? in comparison to all the time she spent working for Marjolaine and Justinia. The Warden may have had some effect on her for a period of time, but after the Blight ended she went back to playing the Game, except on a much grander scale than she ever did with Marjolaine, and she continued doing it for 10 years.

You can't expect a person like that to change on your whim just because you are a supposed leader of an organization. If you miss the first chance, you basically let her use her judgment, in her eyes you also agree with it, and like a real person she gets the feeling that she is doing a right thing. Then later she also uses her judgment, which she considers right because you never stopped her the first time, never showed her that her solution to a problem was wrong. For you the two situations may be different, but for her they are similar - both present threat to the Inquisition, and she deals with this threat how she feels best. I think its a very normal reaction.

The whole point here is that Leliana is so far gone that you have to be very consistent in your morality. You can't selectively pick who is supposed to die and who doesn't, you have to show her that murder is not a solution to a problem, even if it means bashing heads from the very beginning.

Anyway, I don't claim to know what writers intended, but that is what I got from her character. I was initially upset when she told me to bugger off, but the more I thought about it the more awesome her whole arc seemed.

 

I think she is one of the best characters in Inquisition. She has a very strong personality and you can't flip her attitude in one conversation just because you are PC, you have to work for it.

 

Totally agree. It also makes sense if you've completed her character arc including the Valence thingy that it's easy to inadvertently "harden" her (or rather, let her harden herself without an intervention). And I was just about to post a wall'o'text explaining why, then realized this was NO Spoilers zone 

 

Heh, looks like I wrote *my* wall of text. Anyway, hope I managed to avoid spoilers.

[Aurok]

I don't even mind so much them taking her in that direction if they want (though determining it as they have does seem unjustified). My main issue is how they railroad your character so badly as to make your character

Spoiler

complicit in murdering and/or kidnapping innocent people.

 
How about a

Spoiler

"Srsly, Leliana, it wasn't a suggestion. I will throw down on you right now if you execute that person in cold blood"

option.

Or a

Spoiler

"Uhh, belay that order, Spy dude: we don't kidnap children"

option.

Or a

Spoiler

"Do you two even realise I'm standing here and supposedly in charge of this entire organisation?!"

option.

 

Now I'm all for

Spoiler

murdering and/or kidnapping innocent people

but I usually like to have a say in it when I'm being made complicit in it.

[Aurok]

People are looking at this the wrong way. You're not "accidentally hardening" Leliana by letting her kill Butler. She's already hardened, and has been for years due to her work as the Left Hand of the Divine, and now after suffering Justinia's death.

What you are presented with in DA:I is the option to soften her, through maintaining a consistent platform that counters hers. If you don't do that, you haven't failed, you just haven't succeeded.

 

The failure is in knowingly allowing a direct subordinate to commit multiple heinous war crimes without intervening and without repercussions. That's put on to your character with zero justification.

[SpiritWolf448]

So... if they wanted to go the oh so realistic way with this, as some claim, why is it they did not go all the way and let us order her immediate execution for insubordination? Just a question.

[Ascendra]

The failure is in knowingly allowing a direct subordinate to commit multiple heinous war crimes without intervening and without repercussions. That's put on to your character with zero justification.

 

But you did let her kill her subordinate. How is it different to everything else she does? Inaction can cause as much damage as action.

 

 

So... if they wanted to go the oh so realistic way with this, as some claim, why is it they did not go all the way and let us order her immediate execution for insubordination? Just a question. 

 

Plot armor.

Also she believes she does what you are allowing her to do. Its not subordination, she is acting on her judgment which you gave her power of and on how she views your actions.

[Aurok]

But you did let her kill her subordinate. How is it different to everything else she does? Inaction can cause as much damage as action.
 
 



 
Plot armor.
Also she believes she does what you are allowing her to do. Its not subordination, she is acting on her judgment which you gave her power of and on how she views your actions.

She isn't your subordinate during the first incident, nobody asks your opinion on the matter (it's like 5 minutes after you join the Inquisition) and it's a completely different set of circumstances anyway.

During the later incidents, she certainly can't believe she's following your wishes if you've just explicitly ordered her not to do it. The first of these cold blooded executions is perhaps understandable given the circumstances, but allowing the second to go ahead and then go unpunished turns you both into a war criminals.

[Ascendra]

She isn't your subordinate during the first incident, nobody asks your opinion on the matter (it's like 5 minutes after you join the Inquisition) and it's a completely different set of circumstances anyway.

During the later incidents, she certainly can't believe she's following your wishes if you've just explicitly ordered her not to do it. The first of these cold blooded executions is perhaps understandable given the circumstances, but allowing the second to go ahead and then go unpunished turns you both into a war criminals.

 

You're right, she isn't your subordinate in the first incident.

Still, I think the point of her arc is showing her consistently that her methods are flawed, even if you have different positions in Inquisition's hierarchy in the beginning. I mean she is sticking to her beliefs so you have to stick to yours in order to really challenge hers.

I don't know if I'm making any sense.