58 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabriana]

Strange title, isn't it, but I didn't know how to put it in a different way.

The issue is the player's choice to have the PC go to the tower to seek aid from the mages in dealing with the abomination that Connor has become.

As a new player doing my first play-through, I had no way to look anything up and was therefore delightfully unspoiled. The choice of going to the tower was a hard one, because of several issues.

1. Demon-Connor and his minions had been attacking the village for several nights, bringing death, terror, and destruction each time. The last battle was hard, and those undead were quite tough for my low level PC and her group of misfits.

2. Demon-Connor sicced a room full of guards at my PC and her allies within a blink of an eye.

3. He enthralled Teagan without any difficulty.

4. He spouted off about sowing destruction, and taking as much of the world as possible. We already know that human/elven/dwarven lives did not matter to him in any way.

5. "Nobody tells me what to do!" Doesn't sound like someone/something easily subdued.

6. My PC tried to leave the village prior to the big battle, and Tomas came after her, getting all bent out of shape about her possibly leaving, foretelling all kinds of suffering and death if she did.

7. Isolde told my PC upon hearing that she (PC) had to "think about it", gets all urgent and pleads with her to hurry it up, because nobody knows what the demon will do next, and when it will do it.

8. It takes at least two days to complete the travel alone, not counting in getting the mages ready. Keep in mind that Isolde thinks that even thinking about the issue might take too long, let alone prolonged travel time.

9. Unless the demon is extraordinary stupid, it will know that something is up. The guards failed to kill the PC and her allies. Of course, it'll do nothing but cower all subdued-like in a corner while the PC is off to fetch the mages. /sarcasm.

10. If the tower hasn't been completed yet, the PC is in another quandary. Should she face the unknown, not knowing how long that will take, or turn around post-haste, and hope the demon hasn't utterly destroyed the village/castle with every living thing in it - and worse be on the lose looking for fresh meat.

11. Jowan offers a valid alternative, and keep in mind that Grey Wardens do not forbid Blood Magic. Isolde is to blame for the havoc that was wrought on the people under her care, she is, after all, the Arlessa of Redcliffe. She has utterly failed the people under her care by breaking chantry law not once but twice.

12. When asked by the PC if she is really "ready to die?" Isolde say something in the lines of "I gladly die if it means my son will live. I need to atone for all the wrongs I did." So she knew she was to blame.

Now, in my play-through, my PC knew that something was amiss at the tower, but didn't know what. It wasn't anything confirmed, but starting with the gossips and rumors from Lothering on, it was hinted that all was not well at the tower. She also remembered Tomas getting very agitated at her trying to leave. Isolde herself placed great urgency on time, by begging her to hurry up her thinking about it.

She got an extrme feeling of urgency, because the demon appeared very malevolent. It was to be either the child or his mother, everything else would take too long. It was a hard decision to take the mother and leave the child a half-orphan, but she remembered that many other mothers and fathers had to die because of Isolde's foolishness. The girl in the chantry, crying for her mother, and Murdock (beloved father and mayor) come to mind.

So she chose Isolde. The woman was ready and willing, and it was the fastest way. She could not kill the child, but Isolde offered herself as a sacrifice.

Going to the tower to get an all around happy/fuzzy ending is an easy out, and spares the player to make the tough decisions. It's also not quite the morally right decisions it seems to be at first glance. Too many issues swirl around it to not be a cheap out. The only way it's a viable choice is if the player has already completed the tower, and even then the player has to think about leaving the village at the mercy of a demon who can raise whole undead armies, and can enthrall even such strong persons as Teagan. Not to mention the guards it had under its control.

[Addai]

I came around to this myself, as well. On my current mage character, she chose to sacrifice Isolde rather than expose the village to the demon one more night. What good would it have done Eamon if everyone under his care is dead but his wife and child? Would he have been much good then? And did the common people of Redcliffe deserve more terror and uncertainty? It was wrenching to sacrifice someone, especially a mother for her own child, but she saw little choice. If only she would have had better dialogue options to explain this to Alistair afterwards.  Particularly as she had gone into the Fade and actually saved Connor.

My noble female chose to take the risk, more or less unconsciously because she identified with Isolde. class prejudice, I suppose, even if she was trying to do the right thing, too.

Modifié par Addai67, 26 janvier 2010 - 04:23 .

[Nomen Mendax]

That's a great point. I felt just the same way in my first playthrough of Redcliffe, although I have admit I took the coward's way out and went to the Mage's Tower. Although at that point my only option was killing Connor as I'd let Jowan go. I hadn't even dealt with the Mage Tower's issues so I had to free the tower, but fortunately (light sarcasm here) when I got back to Redcliffe nothing had changed at all.

I also really like your reasoning about all the other people that had died (or might die if we waited to free Connor). It also made me think about how Isolde and Connor's plight is made to seem so much more important than the fate of all of the faceless villagers and guards. Mind you, that's pretty common in fiction (and real life unfortunately).

So yes, I think it would have been better (in a dramatic sense) to have been forced to choose between two unpalatable options.

Modifié par Nomen Mendax, 26 janvier 2010 - 04:24 .

[Wendy_O]

Well if you dont take Alastair's suggestion to go to the tower he totally disapproves and the chances of romance get a bit dimmed. My first playthrough I let Lady Isolde kill connor and got major disproval. Second playthrough I went to the Mage's tower and it was well worth it - major brownie points and got a excellent new member of my party!!

[Addai]

Wendy_O wrote...

Well if you dont take Alastair's suggestion to go to the tower he totally disapproves and the chances of romance get a bit dimmed. My first playthrough I let Lady Isolde kill connor and got major disproval. Second playthrough I went to the Mage's tower and it was well worth it - major brownie points and got a excellent new member of my party!!

Alistair's a puppy dog and you can easily earn back his approval points, especially if you have a Persuade option to talk him down.  There is actually an exploit where you get + points, if you want to cheat a bit (tell him "I think it went really well, don't you?" and he acts as though all was peachy).  You can also pick up Wynne later on regardless.

[Sabriana]

I agree, Addai. My PC kept seeing the wounded people, especially the kids, and listening to the little boy asking where his parents are, broke her heart. It was too great a risk.



@ LostScout

Not always, and not all RPG's. There are those who throw you curve-balls quite easily, and I always trust Bioware to do just that.

I did try the 'kill Connor' routine, but had to re-load. Connor will break your heart, I promise you that.

[Allattar1]

I agree, I went to the tower, without completing it first, and was hoping for some dire consequences of my actions.



I was surprised and dissapointed that the demon could not sense the opportunity.

Coming back and finding that Teagan had destroyed Connor, or becuase the situation had got worse Jowan had sacrificed Isolde and removed the demon from the fade. Something, that happened becuase I tried to please everyone but took too long would have been a gritty surprise.

[Valmy]

Well to my character there was only two choices, go to the tower or kill the kid. There was no way I trusting some blood mage maleficar. I did not even know I could go to the tower and was glad when I got that option and I thought it was worth the risk...but I was a bit nervous about it as it seemed like a roll of the dice.

But fortunately everybody waited around patiently for me to get back. I sort of felt a little embarrased for being so stressed about what havoc might happen when I was going to the circle and back.

I kind of wanted to evacuate the castle and leave the boy there alone until I could get back with the mages but that was not an option.

Modifié par Valmy, 26 janvier 2010 - 04:37 .

[Addai]

Re. my HNF, she also couldn't kill Isolde or Connor because it was too close to seeing Oriana and Oren dead. Interesting how my characters self-justify their actions. Not that different from the NPCs around them.

[Sabriana]

Caladhiel wrote...

<snip>

Thing is, your PC doesn't know it's going to be a happy and fuzzy ending. I certainly didn't in my first playthrough, but I still decided to go to the tower and take the risk all the same. That the demon appeared to be 'dormant' during my absence was just a happy coincidence, I certainly expected him to be up to some mischief in the meantime and was indeed wondering what I would find upon my return to Redcliffe.

<snip>

Oh I agree, but it is the happy way out in the end. No repercussions, nothing. I would have prefered if my PC had to chose between using a Blood Mage (again GWs don't oppose Blood Magic), and an risiking to 'cure' an Abomination.

Or at least have something bad occur in the mean-time. The way time passes for other-worldly creatures is really not all that relevant, it did have some knowledge of time, because it told my PC that "Teagan was all feisty this morning" (not verbatim, just the gist).

However, the demon knew the jig was up, the guards defeated, and something was about to happen. If you see the undead army as toy soldiers, that's your right, it's your game, but I see it as a dangerous and smart way of a creature to raise an army that is darn near unstoppable. Everyone tells my PC how hard they are to kill, and she finds that out later on by herself.

[_Aine_]

My very first playthrough I went to the tower for help. The entire time i was at the tower I was wondering what would have had happened when i got back. Truthfully, there probably should have been some ... consequence due to time passing. But not to our beloved Teagan of course, but *some* consequence. I hardly think a demon would sit around and say " Well, you know, i do already have quite a bit here, and possibly they won't really come back -- "Come Teagan, dance for me again and this time make it the Remigold! Let's see some passion, darling! "



Now I just kill Isolde. My PC has determined that she created this mess and so she can fix it. Plus, Alistair slept in the barn. That is a good enough reason as any for a quickish cleanup.

[Grey__Warden]

I killed Isolde because I wanted to. As soon as she said she'd sacrifice herself, I was like "yeah, let's do that one".

[Sandtigress]

Well, I figured we had killed most of the undead guards already, and it was pretty much just Connor left, along with Teagan and the knights and what not. How much more damage could he do? Most of my characters have been along the lines of noble knights, or just too fond of children and not wanting them to lose their mothers to not try to take the Tower route under those circumstances. My blood mage obviously didn't care less and killed Isolde so that he could go talk to the demon.



I don't see the Tower as a completely untenable option, especially now that there are knights in the castle and everyone is more aware of what's wrong with Connor, so that maybe they won't be caught unawares again. I wouldn't have minded some consequences to leaving, though.

[Bibdy]

Yup. Awesome difficult moral choice to make, ruined by the 'save the world before breakfast' meta-game option. Of course you don't know that at the time, which is why I sacrificed Isolde in my first playthrough, but I just wish there was at least some kind of bad outcome for going to the Circle. I don't think killing everyone in Redcliffe would have honestly made a big difference to the outcome of the game, nor would have required much extra development time, except that the player would need someone to talk to about the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest (maybe let the Notorious B. Teagers live, at least).



What's funny is you can go to the Tower, clear the whole damn place out, save them all, then get back to Redcliffe with the Mages before anything happens. I would have preferred 3 bad choices, rather than 2 bad and 1 super-happy.

[Realmzmaster]

The desire demon's hold on Connor is tenuous at times. For example when the battle in the great hall begins Connor takes off. He takes off because Connor does not like violence. At that moment the connection gets strained and Connor gains some control. There is a war going on in Connor. Connor is losing, but the battle is still raging. The demon may not have felt threaten with the PC and party went off to the tower. It is not until the Connor is directly threaten with death does the desire demon take full control.

Also the undead are created when demons enter or are forced to enter a corpse from the Fade because the Veil is thin in that area. The castle had just about ran out of corpses once the PC and company killed the ones in the village and in the castle. So the PC can take the risk and go to the tower.

But if you did the tower first and did not side with the mages you have only two choices in regards to Connor. If you do the tower during Redcliffe, then you have to save the mages. If you do not use the litany properly you will carry out the right of annulment and are back to two choices.

The tower is not the chicken option, because in your first playthrough you do not know what is going to happen. You take a gamble. BioWare was just kind enough to have the demon consider its options until your party got back.

[errant_knight]

It depends on your character. Blood magic may not be officially forbidden, but that doesn't mean that individual wardens can't find it unacceptable. Alistair certainly does. If a warden had to accept it, the choices in Redcliff, Warden's kepp, and even the mage's tower would be moot. My first character was a little more accepting of maleficars than subsequent ones, but still drew the line at not trying the tower option before going for other options, and based on what Bann Tegan and Alistair said, would have killed Conner rather than Isolde. That wouldn't have been an easy choice, since I really dislike Isolde and would hate to kill a child, but it would be better than dealing with blood magic.

I must admit that the more I encounter blood magic, the more personally repugnant I find it, which colors my characters actions. I kill more blood mages in each playthrough.

[Xandurpein]

The only reason I even considered going to the tower on my first play was because I had already cleared it. Sometimes I deliberatly do Redcleff before and then I always kill Connor, not Isolde, heartbreak and all... and I still haven't been able to bring myself to kill that blood mage woman begs for her life in the tower.

[Addai]

errant_knight wrote...

It depends on your character. Blood magic may not be officially forbidden, but that doesn't mean that individual wardens can't find it unacceptable. Alistair certainly does. If a warden had to accept it, the choices in Redcliff, Warden's kepp, and even the mage's tower would be moot. My first character was a little more accepting of maleficars than subsequent ones, but still drew the line at not trying the tower option before going for other options, and based on what Bann Tegan and Alistair said, would have killed Conner rather than Isolde. That wouldn't have been an easy choice, since I really dislike Isolde and would hate to kill a child, but it would be better than dealing with blood magic.

I must admit that the more I encounter blood magic, the more personally repugnant I find it, which colors my characters actions. I kill more blood mages in each playthrough.

I'm the opposite, actually.  The more characters I've played, the less impressed by Chantry propaganda they have been, though I still play my noblewoman as a relatively devout person.  Blood magic is not evil in itself, as I see it, rather it's all in how it's used.  As Morrigan says, "it's just a word."  My elven characters particularly have been amenable to the idea that there is older magic than the Circle's Chantry-approved versions, and it deserves to be protected and respected in certain contexts.

[errant_knight]

Xandurpein wrote...

The only reason I even considered going to the tower on my first play was because I had already cleared it. Sometimes I deliberatly do Redcleff before and then I always kill Connor, not Isolde, heartbreak and all... and I still haven't been able to bring myself to kill that blood mage woman begs for her life in the tower.

I killed her for the first time on my last playthrough. It's not easy to kill someone who swears to reform and is on the ground begging for her life. This time I talked to her a bit more and saw some dialogue I hadn't before. I don't know if that was because I had cunning over 30, or if I just asked the right question, but it left me with the idea that she was very likely to not only continue using blood magic, but to use it against the templars to flee the tower. I decided that she showed no real remorse or understanding of why what she'd done was bad, or capacity for change and killed her. It still wasn't easy, but it seemed right.

[Addai]

Sandtigress wrote...

Well, I figured we had killed most of the undead guards already, and it was pretty much just Connor left, along with Teagan and the knights and what not. How much more damage could he do? Most of my characters have been along the lines of noble knights, or just too fond of children and not wanting them to lose their mothers to not try to take the Tower route under those circumstances. My blood mage obviously didn't care less and killed Isolde so that he could go talk to the demon.

I don't see the Tower as a completely untenable option, especially now that there are knights in the castle and everyone is more aware of what's wrong with Connor, so that maybe they won't be caught unawares again. I wouldn't have minded some consequences to leaving, though.

And when those knights are turned undead, and the entire village turned on each other as well?  The dialogues throughout the village part emphasize how bloodthirsty the demon is.  It does not want a single person to get out of the village alive.

[Xandurpein]

errant_knight wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

The only reason I even considered going to the tower on my first play was because I had already cleared it. Sometimes I deliberatly do Redcleff before and then I always kill Connor, not Isolde, heartbreak and all... and I still haven't been able to bring myself to kill that blood mage woman begs for her life in the tower.

I killed her for the first time on my last playthrough. It's not easy to kill someone who swears to reform and is on the ground begging for her life. This time I talked to her a bit more and saw some dialogue I hadn't before. I don't know if that was because I had cunning over 30, or if I just asked the right question, but it left me with the idea that she was very likely to not only continue using blood magic, but to use it against the templars to flee the tower. I decided that she showed no real remorse or understanding of why what she'd done was bad, or capacity for change and killed her. It still wasn't easy, but it seemed right.

She is obviously not begging you to spare her so she can turn herself over to the Templars and let them kill her. That much I didn't need cunning to figure out. She feels trapped inside the tower's cage, so I understood she meant to use magic to get away from the tower. I also have to say that I haven't really gotten that good an impression of the Templars either. I figured it was beween her and the Templars and I didn't want to be the one to choose side.

[Saryala]

Sabriana wrote...
Going to the tower to get an all around happy/fuzzy ending is an easy out, and spares the player to make the tough decisions. It's also not quite the morally right decisions it seems to be at first glance. Too many issues swirl around it to not be a cheap out. The only way it's a viable choice is if the player has already completed the tower, and even then the player has to think about leaving the village at the mercy of a demon who can raise whole undead armies, and can enthrall even such strong persons as Teagan. Not to mention the guards it had under its control.

I reasoned the same way you did when I got to Redcliffe... I had no idea how long it would take to get to the tower and solve their "problems". Oh, and even though I didn't particularly lke Jowan, he had supposedly been my best friend for years, or at least that's what I gathered at the beginning of the game (my PC was a mage) - but in any case, it just seemed very risky to go there when the situation appeared so urgent at the castle. So I chose to sacrifice Isolde.

[AntiChri5]

I justify the decision by pretending that i left all but 3 of my formidable party members behind to defend the castle. There really should have been a consequence for buggering off for more than half a week. Jowan being forced to ue blood magic to repel the demon and using too much and dying perhaps?