58 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabriana]

Well, about the people left, the player only sees a handful, and no servants at all in the castle (except Valena). However, when the town/castle is cleared, there are quite a few more people seen on castle grounds alone. The village also has more people left to be slaughtered and turned into undead power-houses. So as far as games go, just like real-time vs. in-game-time, the people you are allowed to see are usually not all the people that are supposed to be populating towns/castles/villages.

My PC didn't want to kill Isolde, as annoying as she is, because she understood the Arlessa's reasoning even though the result was atrocious for the common people. As a mother, I myself would do anything to save my child from harm, especially religious zealots.

But that doesn't make the girl's terror at hearing her mother scream in pain and horror everywehre as she's dragged away any less real or less worthy than Isolde's grief.

Addai, it's the same way with me. The more my PC (and I) learned about the Chantry, the less she liked it. My HN was blissfully unaware of the mage's plight until she went into the tower. No doors on the bathrooms. No privacy. When she ran across the blood mage who told her that the templars are 'always watching', she was thoroughly disenchanted with the whole deal.

It matters little to my PC that the child struggled against the demon and broke out for brief moments. The child was no match for the demon, and that's not metagaming. No child can successfully withstand a demon, when even adult, educated mages can't.

[Addai]

About taking Alistair and Wynne's disapproval of blood magic at face value: Alistair is a templar at heart. He is forced to admit this at a few points in the game, such as in the party-gossip dialogue when he starts going on and on about Morrigan being a maleficar and the PC can tell him "your templar training is showing."

Wynne, likewise, is basically Chantry-programmed. The Gauntlet Guardian gets her to admit that she has doubts about whether the advice she dispenses is truly from her heart or whether it is memorized platitudes. The fact that he even asks this of her reveals something about her.

Not that your PC would necessarily cotton on to this at the time of the Redcliffe dilemma, but nevertheless, someone growing up in the Ferelden world could very well be more nuanced about its mindset than we players. You could certainly RP your character as being similarly Chantry-steeped, but that does not make the Chantry's view of things the way it really is.

Modifié par Addai67, 26 janvier 2010 - 07:51 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I find that it helps to have a little "let's pretend" RPing that doesn't show up in game, when I am playing a character that chooses the Circle route. If the character chooses the circle route, I simply pretend my character has had the kid restrained and under guard. After the battle, there is that Templar guy who stands outside the mill. You can pretend that you had that guy stand guard on the kid, maybe a couple of this friends, ready to kill Connor should he make any funny moves. As well as leaving a few party members around, ready to deal with anything. So I, in "let's pretend" terms, did not leave Connor unattended and capable of causing some serious havoc.



I don't always take this route, for different reasons, though, even if I've already completed the circle quest. It depends on the type of character I am playing. I do, however, wish there was some sort of real/in game consequence for choosing the Circle. that would have been nice.

[Althernai]

Sabriana wrote...

Going to the tower to get an all around happy/fuzzy ending is an easy out, and spares the player to make the tough decisions.

I don't think that's true. The tower is an all-or-nothing gamble. You are given the choice between two things that are certainly wrong and a third way that might provide a happy ending for all involved or might lead to a catastrophe. I thought about it for a while (the sense of urgency is convincing) and decided to take the chance. If DA:O was a bit more dark and a bit less heroic, people who do that might come back to a devastated village or maybe Isolde & Co. would be dead in any case, but as it is the gamble works out.

[Tirigon]

On my first game as rogue I killed Connor and that´s it. Easy way out, and I don´t like him anyways.



As mage I was to the Circle first, so I obviously requested their help, because they owed me and I knew that it´s no risk, because as mage I´m experienced enough with demons to know that he won´t recover quickly.

[Kiwiya]

My mage character went to the Tower, because she cared much more about not letting Jowan screw everything up again than the safety of the Redcliffe citizens (the majority of whom were rude and guffawing at her being a mage the whole time anyway). It's a way to seem like a real good guy to your companions and the Arl, but still secretly hope everyone will die for tricking you into fighting for them in the first place.

[sFX.83]

on my first playthrough I kinda forgot where the exit was, and instead of getting out of the castle to call the mages, I accidently went further in where connor cornered me and I had to fight the deamon. and then when isolde came in to finish connor off, I thought it was so cool that the game didn't let me take the easy way out and have everybody live happily ever after.
then when Alistair cornered me at camp, I was like "f*ck you, you shook off every responsibilty you had, and you let the new guy take the lead because you didn't want to make any tough decision and now you have the nerve to question me when I have to make them?"
but then on my second run when I realised the mistake I've mad I was very disappointed that there actually was a happily ever after ending

[SusanStoHelit]

I've never done Redcliffe first - not even on my first spoiler-free run when I knew nothing. I always go do the dlc first and then the mage tower. The first time, I agonised over the choices, I didn't know that it would turn out alright, and I determined in my own mind that if the faeces hit the fan I wouldn't reload - I'd have to live with the consequences.



So I don't think the tower is an 'easy' option - not the first time, anyway. All of my characters so far have thought either that blood magic is 'bad' or at least that some of it's uses are. And killing someone (Isolde) with it would definitely fall into the 'bad' category. And I didn't trust Jowan. So for me that only really leaves two options: kill Connor or go to the tower.



I did once take Jowan up on his offer, to see what happened. I didn't particularly regret Isolde's death (she's just a selfish b*tch who whines constantly and caused the whole damn catastrophe in the first place) - but it felt completely wrong to have trusted Jowan that far. It didn't fit my character at all - it just felt 'wrong' - so I reloaded.



Some of my other characters who haven't got that far yet are more pragmatic, more hard-headed, or just more 'goal-oriented'. They may make other choices; I'll just have to wait and see what feels right.

[Lord Phoebus]

While billed as a dark fantasy, DA:O is really standard high fantasy fare.  I've long ago given up on Bioware actually being able to deliver a situation where you have to chose between the lesser of two evils.  Even at the Landsmeet it's possible to have Alistair marry Anora, Loghain become a Grey Warden and save your Grey Warden by making the deal with Morrigan.

The situation at Redcliffe really occured for four reasons:
1) All the knights were searching for the Urn of Sacred Ashes, so there wasn't really anyone there to fight Connor the Abomination.
2) As a result of the chantry treating the mages as worse than lepers. Isolde had to hire a failed mage teach Connor and there wasn't a mage present at Redcliff who could have stopped Connor.  Heck Jowan could have stopped Connor if he was with Connor instead of being tortured in the dungeon.
3) Because of the Civil War none of the neighbouring Banns were aware of the situation and could have sent forces.
4) They thought Jowan was responsible for the walking dead, so Connor was able to act with impunity.

It was sort of a perfect storm of events that let things get out of hand.  As a result of the PC's actions things are more under control.  There are no more corpses for demons to possess, and Connor himself doesn't want to fight so the Demon would have a hard time compelling him to battle the knights who came with you to reclaim the castle.  Travelling to the circle to get mages is a risk but, with full knowledge of the situation, you would think Ser Perth and his knights could handle things until you come back, which they do.  Still, it would have made more sense if you had stayed and sent Ser Perth to the circle with a message, instead of going there yourself.

[errant_knight]

Addai67 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

It depends on your character. Blood magic may not be officially forbidden, but that doesn't mean that individual wardens can't find it unacceptable. Alistair certainly does. If a warden had to accept it, the choices in Redcliff, Warden's kepp, and even the mage's tower would be moot. My first character was a little more accepting of maleficars than subsequent ones, but still drew the line at not trying the tower option before going for other options, and based on what Bann Tegan and Alistair said, would have killed Conner rather than Isolde. That wouldn't have been an easy choice, since I really dislike Isolde and would hate to kill a child, but it would be better than dealing with blood magic.

I must admit that the more I encounter blood magic, the more personally repugnant I find it, which colors my characters actions. I kill more blood mages in each playthrough.

I'm the opposite, actually.  The more characters I've played, the less impressed by Chantry propaganda they have been, though I still play my noblewoman as a relatively devout person.  Blood magic is not evil in itself, as I see it, rather it's all in how it's used.  As Morrigan says, "it's just a word."  My elven characters particularly have been amenable to the idea that there is older magic than the Circle's Chantry-approved versions, and it deserves to be protected and respected in certain contexts.

I have to disagree. Sucking the lifeforce out of others to gain power for yourself is intrinsically evil. Not to mention the sacrifices and torture that we see non-playable characters such a Alvernus and Caladrius get up to or offer.

[Nomen Mendax]

Still, it would have made more sense if you had stayed and sent Ser Perth to the circle with a message, instead of going there yourself.

Or sent one of your companions from the camp as apparently they just stand around chatting to each other (or glaring at each other if you've left Morrigan and Alistair behind) when you are not around.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Lord Phoebus wrote...


The situation at Redcliffe really occured for four reasons:
1) All the knights were searching for the Urn of Sacred Ashes, so there wasn't really anyone there to fight Connor the Abomination.

Not true. Ser perth was still there, as were a handful of knights in his company. So there are people still left (dunno if this holds if you don't defend Redcliff. but I always have, great source of xp, rewards, and party influence gains)

There's also a templar in the village. So it's not as if there is no one left at all.

[AntiChri5]

errant_knight wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

It depends on your character. Blood magic may not be officially forbidden, but that doesn't mean that individual wardens can't find it unacceptable. Alistair certainly does. If a warden had to accept it, the choices in Redcliff, Warden's kepp, and even the mage's tower would be moot. My first character was a little more accepting of maleficars than subsequent ones, but still drew the line at not trying the tower option before going for other options, and based on what Bann Tegan and Alistair said, would have killed Conner rather than Isolde. That wouldn't have been an easy choice, since I really dislike Isolde and would hate to kill a child, but it would be better than dealing with blood magic.

I must admit that the more I encounter blood magic, the more personally repugnant I find it, which colors my characters actions. I kill more blood mages in each playthrough.

I'm the opposite, actually.  The more characters I've played, the less impressed by Chantry propaganda they have been, though I still play my noblewoman as a relatively devout person.  Blood magic is not evil in itself, as I see it, rather it's all in how it's used.  As Morrigan says, "it's just a word."  My elven characters particularly have been amenable to the idea that there is older magic than the Circle's Chantry-approved versions, and it deserves to be protected and respected in certain contexts.

I have to disagree. Sucking the lifeforce out of others to gain power for yourself is intrinsically evil. Not to mention the sacrifices and torture that we see non-playable characters such a Alvernus and Caladrius get up to or offer.

What if i use my own blood to fuel a spell to heal Allistair?

[nubbers666]

well the option is simple 1 blood magic the wife dies and u save castle and village

2 u go to tower risk the demon comen back to finsh wut it started and killing the remaing villagers and maybe tegan as well

3 u kill conor save the village and castle



have to look at the big pic 1 life for 20+ lol

[Realmzmaster]

Ser Perth and the knights will not leave the castle as long as there is danger. The knight's allegance is to the arl. Unless you have already done the mage quest, Morrigan would probably end up fighting the templars.  Alistair and Sten would join the templars in eliminating the mages.
 
If the quest is done, Morrigan would be attack by the first enchanter or the templars. Of course you could then send Wynne to deliver the message.
Dog could not relay the message well enough and would be ignored. Dog would then get pissed, attack the templars and have to be put down.
 Lelianna would be the only one who aside from the PC could deliver the message. The messenger would be ambushed by darkspawn or bandits and have to fight his/her way to the tower.
I guess it is best that the PC with party deliver the message.

[Lord Phoebus]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Lord Phoebus wrote...


The situation at Redcliffe really occured for four reasons:
1) All the knights were searching for the Urn of Sacred Ashes, so there wasn't really anyone there to fight Connor the Abomination.

Not true. Ser perth was still there, as were a handful of knights in his company. So there are people still left (dunno if this holds if you don't defend Redcliff. but I always have, great source of xp, rewards, and party influence gains)

There's also a templar in the village. So it's not as if there is no one left at all.

Sir Perth and his knights had been questing for the Urn and returned after Connor had siezed control of the castle, hence the reason he was outside and had no idea about what was going on in the castle.  The templar seems to show up after you defend Redcliffe, or he's a coward (and hid during the attacks), either way not much help.  There are a few guards in the castle, but really the castle is down to a skeleton defence force (pun fully intended) when Desire-Connor makes his move. 

[metatheurgist]

I disagree.



The situation is well in hand by the time you've dealt with the siege. Tomas doesn't object to you leaving after that does he?



You've cleared out the nasties in the castle - enough for a maid to find her way back to her father.



Connor's demon is obviously not in control 100% of the time and it's obvious that Isolde still has some influence over Connor.



Ser Perth and his crew are now in control of the castle and they are not a bunch of pushovers.



Sure, going to the Tower is a risk at this point, but it's not the same risk that it was when you first arrived. With Isolde isolating Connor and none of the Knights who are now fully aware of the danger letting their guard slip it's reasonable to assume that the situation might not blow out again. And if Jowan is around you've got an expert ready to repel any mind bending that might occur.

[Raoune]

I think it would have been nice if there was a 50/50 chance that happened if you went to the tower; that it may be fine on the one hand, but on the other Connor might have wiped out the town and you had to kill him anyway.



I let Isolde kill Connor, and whilst I admit I found it very affecting, I still think it was the right thing to do. It's not easy, but it's the clearest, and my Dwarven Noble was not going to put her chances on magic, which she does not understand.



Sure, it threatened her relationship with Alistair, but she talked him round. After all, he approved it when they were there too.

[QuiTamGogh]

Wait, wait, wait ... according to the OP, treking to the Circle to recruit mages to solve the problem is a huge risk ... and if the Warden Commander choose to take a huge risk to save a child and his mother, the Warden (and / or "the Tower") is a chicken?

Gu-wah-huh?

[Lakmoots]

Here is some meta-game thinking for you...

My Warden made a deal with the Demon inside Connor to learn Blood Magic...

An awful thing to do?

Not really...

My Warden is a Mage so he knew this: That little rat-fool Connor has no way of being possessed in the future by the Demon anyway...

Why... because he is being sent to the Tower... and will *definitely* be made into a Tranquil by Irving at the earliest possible opportunity.

Why would he not? He is way too dangerous for anything else... he has already shown himself not strong enough to stop a Demon from claiming his mind. Greagoir would probably force him to do it to the child without waiting for him to grow up...

In my mind, there is *no* way to save Connor at all... it is an unspoken understanding if you are a Mage. Connor is going to have his mind erased... he is too dangerous.

I thought that immediately when they said he was going to be taken to the Tower... I was like "Oh, poor boy, he is going to be a Tranquil *for sure*"

Just a thought...

[ejoslin]

Every time I've played a mage, I've made that deal. Blood mage is nice, extra talent point is nice, +20 approval is worthless. But my reasoning was the same as Lakmoots -- Connor should be dead, anyway. My mage had a demon placed inside her to fight, and had she not been able to, she would have been killed immediately. She had no sympathy at all for Isolde. My non-mages usually tick off Morrigan and have her go in and take care of the demon.

[Lakmoots]

Exactly... It goes against everything the Chantry and the Circle stand for *not* to make Connor Tranquil.



He loses his title and holdings the moment he goes in... and will lose his mind *very* shortly...

[nyxocity]

I stumbled across the suggestion to go to the tower via Alistair in my first play through and immediately seized on it. Although I had the anxiety urge of "must fix this now" my character was ultimately a very good, traditional hero who thought the less people that die, the better. The undead army was wiped out, Connor had gone into a bit of a remission, so it seemed like the optimal choice. In the end I was incredibly satisfied with the way things worked out. It would have been easy (in terms of expediency) to kill Connor or let Isolde sacrifice herself, but it didn't feel RIGHT once presented with the option of going to the mages tower. Of course, YMMV.

[ejoslin]

Lakmoots wrote...

Exactly... It goes against everything the Chantry and the Circle stand for *not* to make Connor Tranquil.

He loses his title and holdings the moment he goes in... and will lose his mind *very* shortly...

It doesn't help their cause any when he describes to my elf that he had the ears cut off the elven servants and fed to the dogs, either.  And Isolde permitted this.  She is beyond evil, because she should have known better and was so focused on herself and her family that she let this all happen.

Edit: And i know that people will object to me calling Isolde evil, but that kind of selfishness, where you allow the people you are supposed to protect be tortured, mutilated, killed, all to keep from losing her son. And she never seems to grasp the enormity of what she allowed to happen.  Not all evil people are mustash twirlers - - some are just completely selfish, so selfish, that no one else matters to them.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 janvier 2010 - 03:49 .

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...
It doesn't help their cause any when he describes to my elf that he had the ears cut off the elven servants and fed to the dogs, either.  And Isolde permitted this.  She is beyond evil, because she should have known better and was so focused on herself and her family that she let this all happen.

I took this as a taunt.  You think he really did it?  Crikey.

Modifié par Addai67, 27 janvier 2010 - 03:49 .