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#226
Efvie

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Gender-identity (in the case of Krem) , Sexual Orientation Sexual/Romantic preferences are characteristics. They aren't just ornamental trappings independent of a persons character, they are part and parcel of what makes up that person. Dorian being homosexual is, while far from his entire character, a key component of shaping who he is as a person.

 

It is a part, unless it is made significant through experience. Being left-handed is (mostly) inconsequential, but it wouldn’t be if people were persecuted because of it.

 

The insistence that sexual orientation is completely defining is nothing but the trauma of this patriarchal, persecuting, oppressive, repressive society. I think there is a need to tell those stories, too, to have relateable characters. But there’s no reason that a character can’t be convincing, believable, fleshed-out… and have an undefined sexuality. Gender identity is yet another matter, because its effect is intrinsic, through dysphoria, rather than extrinsic like acceptance of sexual orientation.

 

Like I said, if you want realism, then at the beginning of the game there’s a random die that determines 1:6 companions, max, to take an interest in you—without your control beforehand.

 

Signed,

  Not that it’s any of your business, but Q/B.


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#227
Efvie

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Wow. Quite a few people in this topic had a Ring of Stupid active... I took some serious stupid damage. Luckily I had 1 Neuron Regen Potion left. *gulp*

 

Alright, hand over the rings. No need to go hoarding them.



#228
Xatasha

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Just add this stuff to the Tapestry. Choose whatever you want.  Granted a couple will be locked due to story but you could setup your world like you want.


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#229
Dominus

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Yeah, I'd say go with eventual modding if it becomes available.

If I had to play Developmental Psychic, I'd say they'd stick with Gender Gating to some degree. They may allow more options for specific gender combinations, but the All-Bi philosophy is probably in the past.

#230
hafiznero

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cassandra? eww....



#231
phantomrachie

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I'm surprised that no one's bought up that Inquisition is one of the few video games out there that has homosexual representation. I know that a couple people would prefer that the romances were bi so that can romance whichever character of there choosing, but you got to realize that doing that would mean that we'd lose companions like Dorian or Sera who are admired because of the fact that they are homosexual characters in an industry that still has a major issue with having gay content in their products. 

 

Bioware got a lot of deserved respect from their customers and LGBT people for being one of the only AAA developers willing to do that and I would hate for them to go back to the DA 2's method and lose that representation. 

 

This is my main issue with all bi romances, not that it is unrealistic but that it doesn't provide representation for all sexualities.  

 

For a game like DA2 with only 4 possible LIs then I think all bi romances makes sense to give everyone choice, but in a game like DA:I with 8 possible LIs making them all bisexual means that representation is sacrificed for player choice.

 

If gay characters were more common in games then I would't really have an issue with that but since BioWare is one of the only AAA developers that would even consider putting a gay character in a game then I think its important that they do that.

 

Whether that is including gay characters as LIs, non LI companions or NPCs I don't mind but that representation is important.


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#232
DetcelferVisionary

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Was Josephine's romance less interesting *because* she was a bisexual romance option?  Does she even ever talk about being bisexual in any context?  I've been meaning to ask in her thread if there's anything in her romance where she talks about her sexuality at all.  I have a suspicion it never comes up.

 

Is it possible that Cassandra's romance is better not because she is strictly heterosexual, but because she's the "leading lady" of this game, and because the Inquisitor spends much more time building a rapport with Cassandra, whether romanced or not, so that her romance feels more interesting and fulfilling?

 

Personally, after feeling obliged to at least try the Sera romance, I still would prefer to romance Cassandra with my female Inquisitor.  Both because I really like how Cassandra was written, personality wise, and because she was written to be a major character with plot relevance.

 

I fail to see how "Sera will join you FOR NOW" and having to be careful not to kick Sera out of my party every single time I chat with her conveys any kind of relevance to her character by Bioware.  If anything, it feels like they want to reassure players that Sera is disposable and can be easily erased.  I can't even get a read on Josephine, so I haven't tried to romance her, and probably won't.  So yeah, this brave new world of "fully gay characters" and REAL bi/pan characters isn't doing anything for me.

 

I'm happy for those who feel that Dorian's romance was well written, it sounds like it was.  But I don't really see how the f/f romances were made "better" by this system.  If anything, I was once again reminded that the main female romanceable character, Cassandra, was meant for straight male gamers only, just like characters like Bastila, Miranda, Ashley, and Morrigan before her, and that isn't a pleasant feeling.

 

 I had trouble buying into whatever writing they had for Josephine which I've talked about in other threads but I'll summarize here.   Josephine has stated to have had sexual experiences,  who is an esteemed and crafty diplomat,  I found her lack of understanding that I was flirting with her unconvincing and contradictory to everything she has stated and represented.  It was simply poor writing.  How could she of all people,  someone who is socially intelligent not see my advances for what they were?  It just doesn't add up.

 

Cassandras relationship stems from her desire to be swooned by a classical romance of flowers and poetry.  This does not mean that any other form of sexual orientation does not desire these same things,  but these are IMO classical in romances for heterosexuals.  I can't speak for the LGBT because I'm not LGBT.  So yes,  I identified right away with this plot more so than however Josephine was written.  Perhaps it was subtleties as well from the animations,  to the physicality of it,  to the choice words...  something simply didn't line up for me and therefore I did not enjoy it as much as I did Cass.

 

I've watched my wifes relationships in game and very much enjoyed most of them.  Josephine felt the weakest.  I disliked Seras because frankly I dislike Sera in general.  I enjoyed Dorian's relationship from watching videos even though I would never personally pursue it for obvious reasons.   

 

To be fair DA2 had all bisexual characters and I thought those were the weakest relationships thus far out of the Bioware games.  Now was this due to having to compromise because they had to be bi?  Not sure entirely but I feel that is part of it.  However,  I believe DA2 in general had weaker writing.  So perhaps it was a mixture of both?  

 

My comments probably come off as callous but they're not meant to.  I believe Bioware has an obligation to make the LGBT community feel at home in their games... but as a business,  I'd be surprised if they would ever cater to making a leading lady lesbian for example without alienating the fan base.  I suppose if they did that I would actually be in full support.  Why not?  But can you imagine the fall out?  I don't honestly believe that there is a larger LGBT group of people playing the game over heterosexuals and I doubt heterosexuals in general would be all that understanding.  That is more self criticism than anything.   I could very well be wrong about all of this and wish to keep an open mind.



#233
AWTEW

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I think if its for story reasons, then it should be restricted. I mean I personally would have loved some cassandraxlelliana, but I understand and appriciate that Cass is straight, and thats a part of her character. I never want the series to go back to the all-bi situation..ever.
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#234
Sully13

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way I see it everyone is over reacting to who the characters want to shag over how cool they are.

so what if dorian likes it up his bum he is awesome. 


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#235
AWTEW

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way I see it everyone is over reacting to who the characters want to shag over how cool they are.
so what if dorian likes it up his bum he is awesome.


I'm out of likes so.... +100

#236
Seraphim24

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It might be hard to interpret but it sounds like you basically just want Cassandra to be bisexual instead of heterosexual.

 

How about you let Cassandra be who she wants to be, eh?


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#237
Guest_greengoron89_*

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It's not about "gender restrictions" at all, it's really about control. Video games are all about control. Control over yourself as well as the people and things around you, to a degree most people can't in reality. It's kind of intoxicating when you really think about it, and doubly so for those with so little control in their own lives.


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#238
Tayah

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 I had trouble buying into whatever writing they had for Josephine which I've talked about in other threads but I'll summarize here.   Josephine has stated to have had sexual experiences,  who is an esteemed and crafty diplomat,  I found her lack of understanding that I was flirting with her unconvincing and contradictory to everything she has stated and represented.  It was simply poor writing.  How could she of all people,  someone who is socially intelligent not see my advances for what they were?  It just doesn't add up.

 

Cassandras relationship stems from her desire to be swooned by a classical romance of flowers and poetry.  This does not mean that any other form of sexual orientation does not desire these same things,  but these are IMO classical in romances for heterosexuals.  I can't speak for the LGBT because I'm not LGBT.  So yes,  I identified right away with this plot more so than however Josephine was written.  Perhaps it was subtleties as well from the animations,  to the physicality of it,  to the choice words...  something simply didn't line up for me and therefore I did not enjoy it as much as I did Cass.

 

I've watched my wifes relationships in game and very much enjoyed most of them.  Josephine felt the weakest.  I disliked Seras because frankly I dislike Sera in general.  I enjoyed Dorian's relationship from watching videos even though I would never personally pursue it for obvious reasons.   

I got the impression Josie played at being a bard for a very short time and as a noble in reality she wasn't really trying to be the full on bard like a Leliana or someone who has to be a bard to survive so she simply didn't experience the sexual side of it. Leliana tells you that Josie is an innocent when it comes to love and actually when I talked to Josie after that conversation with Leliana she basically said words to the effect that she thought my flirting was not meant seriously and wasn't taking it as such to keep things from getting awkward (I was playing a fem qunari) so I didn't have a lot of issue with that part of her romance.

 

My problem is that her romance is also designed around a classical hetrosexual romance where the guy duels for her hand and wins the girl hence some refer to it as the Disney romance. Personally it's not something I enjoy though others do and there are others who feel that from a f/f perspective it's fine because they get to play that fantasy too... more power to them but to me the duel makes it feel less like a bi romance and more like a straight romance opened up to females as well without accounting for the differences that should lead to. Considering I also find Sera... difficult to like, it leaves me either pursuing a character I don't like or a character I actually really like but who's romance feels like it's supposed to be with a guy because the duel at the centre contradicts bioware's own lore, (marriage is about inheritance and heirs not love so no s/s marriage even thought of) at least that's my take on it.

 

I think the other weakness for Josephine compared to Cass is because Cass has a lot to add to the plot and if you travel around with her (and you're not struck by the banter bug) you get banter and more development from Cassandra in general (that's how it feels from a friendship path with her anyway). I got to a point where I virtually couldn't talk to Josie because she had nothing to say and I was still side-questing thinking I might need higher levels to finish the game. If you do a lot of the side stuff it really interferes with the rhythm of romance or friendships to varying degrees at least for me it did. Dorian and Josie seemed to have less to say but every time I took Dorian with me I got banter so he felt like more was still going on with him. At least that's my perception and it left me wishing for more companion content long before I finished the game first time around. 

 

To clarify I have no problem accepting Cass is straight I just want the bi character to make sense within the game world when romanced by a PC of the same gender.  It would also be nice if the bi and gay characters were as plot heavy as straight characters or at least a little more closely tied than they tend to be at the moment.

 

@DetcelferVisionary I personally didn't think your post callous, I thought it added an interesting perspective to the discussion, thank you.


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#239
SpiritMuse

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I had trouble buying into whatever writing they had for Josephine which I've talked about in other threads but I'll summarize here.   Josephine has stated to have had sexual experiences,  who is an esteemed and crafty diplomat,  I found her lack of understanding that I was flirting with her unconvincing and contradictory to everything she has stated and represented.  It was simply poor writing.  How could she of all people,  someone who is socially intelligent not see my advances for what they were?  It just doesn't add up.

  

I got the impression Josie played at being a bard for a very short time and as a noble in reality she wasn't really trying to be the full on bard like a Leliana or someone who has to be a bard to survive so she simply didn't experience the sexual side of it. Leliana tells you that Josie is an innocent when it comes to love and actually when I talked to Josie after that conversation with Leliana she basically said words to the effect that she thought my flirting was not meant seriously and wasn't taking it as such to keep things from getting awkward (I was playing a fem qunari) so I didn't have a lot of issue with that part of her romance.


That was my impression as well, flirting seems to be the standard in the Orlesian and Antivan noble circles, so it would make sense that she wouldn't realize you were actually being serious. Also, you'd be surprised how blind people can be when it comes to themselves.

I love flirting with Cass as a female. My current quizzy and her are having whatever the female equivalent of a bromance is and I am loving it.
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#240
King Dragonlord

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You know, I just saw the Sera scene, and can't speak for any sexualities other than my own, but any straight males complaining about lack of options, there's you one. Play a femquisitor and enjoy some girl on girl. Its got the most female nudity of any of them.

 

I still like Cassandra's romance better because I find her cheesy basic notion of what romance should look like to be endearing. Us modern cynics might mock it as being a bit cliche but she says "you know what? I want it and I don't care what anyone thinks. Candles poetry and flowers."  And she's so earnest about that. 


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#241
Beanstalk

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It is a part, unless it is made significant through experience. Being left-handed is (mostly) inconsequential, but it wouldn’t be if people were persecuted because of it.

 

The insistence that sexual orientation is completely defining is nothing but the trauma of this patriarchal, persecuting, oppressive, repressive society. I think there is a need to tell those stories, too, to have relateable characters. But there’s no reason that a character can’t be convincing, believable, fleshed-out… and have an undefined sexuality. Gender identity is yet another matter, because its effect is intrinsic, through dysphoria, rather than extrinsic like acceptance of sexual orientation.

 

Like I said, if you want realism, then at the beginning of the game there’s a random die that determines 1:6 companions, max, to take an interest in you—without your control beforehand.

 

Signed,

  Not that it’s any of your business, but Q/B.

First, if DA:I existed in a vacuum, you'd have a point. But it doesn't, it exists in the heavily discriminatory world you mention. Because of this, representation matters.

 

Second, you are assuming that the world of Thedas is not persecuting, oppressive, etc. when it comes to sexuality. It might seem that way because it is barely mentioned (however, pay attention to some of the conversation options available to the Inquisitor when talking to/about Krem when the subject comes up), but given how oppression is a major theme in the main storyline, I'm having trouble imagining that in a world where many people will happily assume that all mages do blood magic and are Abominations waiting to happen, and even features a country where you can get ostracized for being unfashionable at a ball, no one will bat an eyelash at deviating from the sexual norm. (also, iirc Krem even hints at being discriminated against in Tevinter)

So I'm going to assume that the fact it is barely mentioned is do to Bioware not wanting to open that particular can of worms, not because it isn't there.



#242
EmpressEmmie

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I liked the options in DA2. No matter who you were interested in, they were "available" to be romanced. I wasn't limited to ...say only Blackwall or Bull because I'm a dwarf female. I could have ANY male ...or female ...or both. Removing gates means opening up choices. Why? Because it's a game and that's the BEST part of being a gamer. Being able to control the fantasy. :wizard:

 

Fantasy works best when it's just real enough to be immersive ...but unrestricted enough to be player controlled. In fantasy games ...it shouldn't matter if you're an elf, dwarf, human, qunari, male or female or even a half elf like Alistair. If you take the time to get to know the LI and wander through the wastes performing their personal quest ...you should get to romance the sassy elf girl ...or swashbuckling Tevinter ...or handsome knight commander.  ;) Why is that such a controversial and argumentative concept?  :unsure:

 

As for the text/dialogue limits, that's easily fixed with gender neutral terms of endearment like: dearest, sweetheart, love or lover. They could even use more DA created words like when Bull says "Kadan" ...it's unique to him and all the more special because only he uses it ...and he only uses it for me.  :wub:  But that word isn't male/female so the voice actor/scripting wouldn't have to be added or change.

 

Bioware's strongest attribute is the stories that they tell and the way they allow us to be a part of those stories. IMHO gating is restricting and I'd rather have 4 solid LI without gates, than 8 weak ones with gates.



#243
syllogi

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 I had trouble buying into whatever writing they had for Josephine which I've talked about in other threads but I'll summarize here.   Josephine has stated to have had sexual experiences,  who is an esteemed and crafty diplomat,  I found her lack of understanding that I was flirting with her unconvincing and contradictory to everything she has stated and represented.  It was simply poor writing.  How could she of all people,  someone who is socially intelligent not see my advances for what they were?  It just doesn't add up.

 

Cassandras relationship stems from her desire to be swooned by a classical romance of flowers and poetry.  This does not mean that any other form of sexual orientation does not desire these same things,  but these are IMO classical in romances for heterosexuals.  I can't speak for the LGBT because I'm not LGBT.  So yes,  I identified right away with this plot more so than however Josephine was written.  Perhaps it was subtleties as well from the animations,  to the physicality of it,  to the choice words...  something simply didn't line up for me and therefore I did not enjoy it as much as I did Cass.

 

I've watched my wifes relationships in game and very much enjoyed most of them.  Josephine felt the weakest.  I disliked Seras because frankly I dislike Sera in general.  I enjoyed Dorian's relationship from watching videos even though I would never personally pursue it for obvious reasons.   

 

To be fair DA2 had all bisexual characters and I thought those were the weakest relationships thus far out of the Bioware games.  Now was this due to having to compromise because they had to be bi?  Not sure entirely but I feel that is part of it.  However,  I believe DA2 in general had weaker writing.  So perhaps it was a mixture of both?  

 

My comments probably come off as callous but they're not meant to.  I believe Bioware has an obligation to make the LGBT community feel at home in their games... but as a business,  I'd be surprised if they would ever cater to making a leading lady lesbian for example without alienating the fan base.  I suppose if they did that I would actually be in full support.  Why not?  But can you imagine the fall out?  I don't honestly believe that there is a larger LGBT group of people playing the game over heterosexuals and I doubt heterosexuals in general would be all that understanding.  That is more self criticism than anything.   I could very well be wrong about all of this and wish to keep an open mind.

 

I don't think you're being callous, just honest from your perspective, but from mine...

 

First off, let me introduce you to the wonderful world of Lesbians and Poetry!  The words lesbian and sapphic both come from the ancient Greek poet Sappho, who came from the island of Lesbos, and is kind of a big deal.  Emily Dickinson, is also very well known for her poetry, and also her isolation through her life, but what's not as well known is that she sent and dedicated hundreds of love poems to her sister in law.  There are many other lesbian poets throughout history, but the point is that just because Cassandra likes the idea of romance and poetry, that doesn't have to mean that she's obviously heterosexual.  

 

I feel much the same way about Josephine's romance, but for me, it's especially frustrating that just TALKING about why the duel scene is important to a female Inquisitor, and what it means to Josephine, would have changed it completely, from what appears to be a carbon copy of the male romance with pronouns changed, and no more meaningful than a mod that lets you romance a gender gated character, to something else entirely...a subversion of a traditional romantic trope, and something really special.  They were SO close, but so far away.  sigh.

 

As for Sera, I actually like her, but I feel like she was made specifically to be an ingame troll, and she reminds me a LOT of Mass Effect 2's Jacob Taylor in her extreme and inexplicable emotional shutdown.  I can like Jacob and Sera for what they show to the player, but I would have to headcanon TONS in order to romance them.  I don't want to have to do that.  And then there's the whole thing about how Sera is so easily erased from the game, that makes me both want to protect her character and also mad that she was written with the intention of pissing people off to the point that they would want to kick her out.  WHY does it have to be the one and only lesbian?

 

What actually would happen if the "leading lady" of a Bioware game was bisexual or (gasp) lesbian?  Or for that matter, a plot relevant male character like Alistair or Solas?  The people who are sneering at Bioware right now for including LGBT characters at all in their games aren't appeased by how easily characters like Dorian, Sera, and Iron Bull can be dismissed from the game.  Who cares what those people would think about gay/bisexual characters who can't be chased away (or completely missed)?


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#244
Panda

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The not so nice side of set sexualities (and also race-gating) that it takes away players changes to roleplay. I wanted to romance Cullen as qunari mage, that was my first plan for Inquisitor and I had it like half year before race-gating was announced. Not a happy day.

 

I guess I'd prefer if instead of giving info of LI's in little pieces, BW would just declare the sexualities of them and race-gatings same moment. Lot less broken hearts :P That way set sexualities would interfere my roleplaying less though it would still limit what kinda characters I can do so I can romance the LI I want.


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#245
Ceoldoren

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Modders can do it. They did it for a lot of other games, too. Origins for example.

Yeah, when they had a toolset and an engine that was fairly moddable. Frostbite 3 is really hard to mod, and they don't have any tools to make **** like that.

 

So basically the best you're ever going to get is probably some retextures and maybe new hairstyles. 



#246
Ceoldoren

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I saw a vid of Dorian with low approval and he says he won't leave until the enemy is defeated. You only can choose if he stays until then or leaves now.

 

At least they stay with you until the enemy is defeated, even on low approval. Sera? Lolnope, you kick her out anytime you want. <_<

Then just...don't kick her out ? 

 

You can kick Sera out because she's damn near insane and reckless. Everyone else in the Inquisition is pretty levelheaded, But Sera is a loose cannon and I could see why someone would make her leave.

 

So I feel it made sense.



#247
Ceoldoren

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Yeah, it's a statement that I do feel sad that people seem to feel that the DA2 characters are worse off for being effectively, if not defined as, bisexual, and somehow many players find it lacking and unsatisfying.  When you've been told for most of your life that you're not good enough because of your sexuality, and then you get representation that is deemed not good enough, it's hard not to take it personally.  I will freely admit that it's something that hits close to home.

 

I don't think the DA2 love interests were limited as much by their sexual orientations as how companion stories were doled out in DA2, but that's a story for another thread.

 

Josephine (and Iron Bull indirectly) are relevant to this thread because the OP isn't all that thrilled by Josephine's romance, and would rather romance Cassandra with a female character.  I've just been talking about my own experiences with the same sex romances in this game that are available to female Inquisitors, and I feel that the supposed representation that came from "set" sexualities is pretty much non-existent for Sera and Josephine, so I'm agreeing with the OP that Cassandra could have been bisexual and pretty nothing about her story needed to be changed, if that's how they're treating female same sex love interests.

Bisexual guy here.

 

I wasn't annoyed that they we're bisexual. I was annoyed because it didn't really make sense for all 4 of them to be bi. It just seemed out of place. 


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#248
AEve1

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There's another aspect of DAI's romance-gating that we haven't really talked about, which is that the romance path in this game feels like it has a lot more exclusive content than it did in previous ones, especially now that gift-giving is (mostly) romance-only. When you miss that content, you're at least missing out on characterization, and potentially missing something plot-crucial.

For example, why wouldn't Solas

Spoiler

There's nothing quite so important in Cassandra's romance (well, that I know of - I haven't played it), but you do miss out on smaller bits of information, like her fondness for poetry, or Regalyan's death at the Conclave. And while I was really touched by Dorian's assertion that my Femquisitor was his best friend, it didn't feel earned. I'd barely interacted with him except to take him to meet his father. At least you have to get him his amulet to start a romance.

 

The restrictions on romance wouldn't be so annoying if they were replaced by something that felt equally meaningful.

 

(PS: DA2 had the best relationships and most meaningful companion interactions of any Bioware game, and yes, this is the hill I am willing to die on.)


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#249
XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX

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What actually would happen if the "leading lady" of a Bioware game was bisexual or (gasp) lesbian?  Or for that matter, a plot relevant male character like Alistair or Solas?  The people who are sneering at Bioware right now for including LGBT characters at all in their games aren't appeased by how easily characters like Dorian, Sera, and Iron Bull can be dismissed from the game.  Who cares what those people would think about gay/bisexual characters who can't be chased away (or completely missed)?


That probably won't happen, it'll likely continue the trend of "straight = main character non straight = skippable character" out of fear of the backlash a gay/lesbian character whose character & romance is plot important would bring, they already get "BW are pushing the gay agenda in my face" complaints & thats just for creating optional LGBT characters, a mandatory character would likely create more rage that they'd rather avoid

#250
Ceoldoren

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Im not interested in realism in my games, any of them, i play games to escape all that 

 

It would be, probably, to late now to say "ok switch your all PS" given how some of the companions are written, but if they had just kept the model that they had in DA2, well the writing wouldnt have been as obvious.

 

Forcing ppl into a gender to experience a romance is one of the better things they got rid of in DA2

So all the romance options should just be willing to bang you regardless of who you are ? And that doesn't seem a little weird to you ?


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