476 réponses à ce sujet

[Ceoldoren]

No, I dislike this idea. When I want to romance someone then I want that character to be straight.

...Why ? What's your issue with bi characters ? 

[syllogi]

Bisexual guy here.

 

I wasn't annoyed that they we're bisexual. I was annoyed because it didn't really make sense for all 4 of them to be bi. It just seemed out of place. 

 

Why out of place?  I mean, I live in NYC.  When I was a teenager, I went to a small magnet school, but somehow I managed to find two other gay people to be best friends with.  Right now, my best friend at work is a gay guy, and I tend to be closer with gay or lesbian co-workers.

 

I'm not out looking for LGBT friends, or turning away friendships with people who are straight, but I think it's natural that common experiences and outlooks would lead me to have more friends who would be open about their sexual orientation and be more relaxed about talking about my personal life with people who understand things like, me being bisexual doesn't mean I want to bang everybody I meet, or that my friend being gay doesn't mean that I need to introduce him to every other gay man I've ever met.  It's just nice.  

 

Why can't characters in a game have the same kind of friendships?

[Ceoldoren]

Why out of place?  I mean, I live in NYC.  When I was a teenager, I went to a small magnet school, but somehow I managed to find two other gay people to be best friends with.  Right now, my best friend at work is a gay guy, and I tend to be closer with gay or lesbian co-workers.

 

I'm not out looking for LGBT friends, or turning away friendships with people who are straight, but I think it's natural that common experiences and outlooks would lead me to have more friends who would be open about their sexual orientation and be more relaxed about talking about my personal life with people who understand things like, me being bisexual doesn't mean I want to bang everybody I meet, or that my friend being gay doesn't mean that I need to introduce him to every other gay man I've ever met.  It's just nice.  

 

Why can't characters in a game have the same kind of friendships?

Firstly, please don't act like I don't understand that being bi doesn't mean you want to sleep with everyone. I learned that long ago.

 

It just makes more sense for some of them to be straight, or gay, or bi. Everyone being Bi just doesn't fit to me. 

[General TSAR]

No thanks OP, I prefer to have characters with their own preferences, not digital sex toys like the DA2 cast minus sibling, Seb, Varric, and Aveline to an extent.

[syllogi]

Firstly, please don't act like I don't understand that being bi doesn't mean you want to sleep with everyone. I learned that long ago.

 

It just makes more sense for some of them to be straight, or gay, or bi. Everyone being Bi just doesn't fit to me. 

 

Oh brother, I was using two examples of how straight people can make assumptions, even when you're friends, that I don't find with my gay/lesbian friends.  I don't know how you saw that as an attack on you.

 

Four people being bisexual out of everyone we met in that game didn't seem that crazy to me.  If I could deal with enemies falling from the sky, or Orsino's endgame freakout, I could handle four bisexual people in the same place at the same time.

 

Personally, as seen in my posts in this thread, I really just want *better* representation, if they're going to do it at all, and especially if they're going to brag about it.  I'd like to see gay or bi romanceable characters who are part of the main plot, and I don't want LGBT characters who can be dismissed or completely erased from the game, because it feels like the gay toggle they've claimed they're completely against.  

 

But I will defend how the DA2 romanceable characters were written, whenever it comes up, because I really don't see how they were made worse, unrealistic, or interchangeable, simply because they were bisexual.  I realize I'm not going to change minds of the people who hated DA2 and everything it stands for, but oh well.

[day83]

I enjoyed flirting with everyone being turned down by some.

[daveliam]

No thanks OP, I prefer to have characters with their own preferences, not digital sex toys like the DA2 cast minus sibling, Seb, Varric, and Aveline to an extent.

 

Yeah, just like the DA 2 cast minus the majority of them.  You know, like Anders, Fenris, Isabela, and Merrill, whose preferences meant that they had no preferences.

 

Never change BSN.

[DetcelferVisionary]

 

I got the impression Josie played at being a bard for a very short time and as a noble in reality she wasn't really trying to be the full on bard like a Leliana or someone who has to be a bard to survive so she simply didn't experience the sexual side of it. Leliana tells you that Josie is an innocent when it comes to love and actually when I talked to Josie after that conversation with Leliana she basically said words to the effect that she thought my flirting was not meant seriously and wasn't taking it as such to keep things from getting awkward (I was playing a fem qunari) so I didn't have a lot of issue with that part of her romance.

 

My problem is that her romance is also designed around a classical hetrosexual romance where the guy duels for her hand and wins the girl hence some refer to it as the Disney romance. Personally it's not something I enjoy though others do and there are others who feel that from a f/f perspective it's fine because they get to play that fantasy too... more power to them but to me the duel makes it feel less like a bi romance and more like a straight romance opened up to females as well without accounting for the differences that should lead to. Considering I also find Sera... difficult to like, it leaves me either pursuing a character I don't like or a character I actually really like but who's romance feels like it's supposed to be with a guy because the duel at the centre contradicts bioware's own lore, (marriage is about inheritance and heirs not love so no s/s marriage even thought of) at least that's my take on it.

 

I think the other weakness for Josephine compared to Cass is because Cass has a lot to add to the plot and if you travel around with her (and you're not struck by the banter bug) you get banter and more development from Cassandra in general (that's how it feels from a friendship path with her anyway). I got to a point where I virtually couldn't talk to Josie because she had nothing to say and I was still side-questing thinking I might need higher levels to finish the game. If you do a lot of the side stuff it really interferes with the rhythm of romance or friendships to varying degrees at least for me it did. Dorian and Josie seemed to have less to say but every time I took Dorian with me I got banter so he felt like more was still going on with him. At least that's my perception and it left me wishing for more companion content long before I finished the game first time around. 

 

To clarify I have no problem accepting Cass is straight I just want the bi character to make sense within the game world when romanced by a PC of the same gender.  It would also be nice if the bi and gay characters were as plot heavy as straight characters or at least a little more closely tied than they tend to be at the moment.

 

@DetcelferVisionary I personally didn't think your post callous, I thought it added an interesting perspective to the discussion, thank you.

 

You're right that the obliviousness of Josie was presented to us by the wonderful threats from Liliana.  I still perceived the situation not matching the qualities of the character.  Even by the end,  she couldn't make a connection of my motives but she could on my war table have an almost intimate understanding of what moves and persuades nations.  Just created a disconnect I couldn't escape from.

 

When you state that her romance felt more like a hetero romance and less like a bi romance actually underlines exactly what I'm trying to express why bi relationship writing feels off.  We picked up on two completely different issues but relatively came to the same conclusion and this very well could stem from our orientation.  I remain convinced that the only way to solve bi characters is to have aspects of the story needs to be entirely re-written based on the sex of the person initiating the romance.  It is true that my connection to Cass grew out of having spent more time with her and creating a foundation for better understanding and thus a more fulfilling relationship for my inquisitor.  By comparison Josie's felt horribly shallow which is unfortunate for anyone interested in that potential romance.

 

 

I don't think you're being callous, just honest from your perspective, but from mine...

 

First off, let me introduce you to the wonderful world of Lesbians and Poetry!  The words lesbian and sapphic both come from the ancient Greek poet Sappho, who came from the island of Lesbos, and is kind of a big deal.  Emily Dickinson, is also very well known for her poetry, and also her isolation through her life, but what's not as well known is that she sent and dedicated hundreds of love poems to her sister in law.  There are many other lesbian poets throughout history, but the point is that just because Cassandra likes the idea of romance and poetry, that doesn't have to mean that she's obviously heterosexual.  

 

I feel much the same way about Josephine's romance, but for me, it's especially frustrating that just TALKING about why the duel scene is important to a female Inquisitor, and what it means to Josephine, would have changed it completely, from what appears to be a carbon copy of the male romance with pronouns changed, and no more meaningful than a mod that lets you romance a gender gated character, to something else entirely...a subversion of a traditional romantic trope, and something really special.  They were SO close, but so far away.  sigh.

 

As for Sera, I actually like her, but I feel like she was made specifically to be an ingame troll, and she reminds me a LOT of Mass Effect 2's Jacob Taylor in her extreme and inexplicable emotional shutdown.  I can like Jacob and Sera for what they show to the player, but I would have to headcanon TONS in order to romance them.  I don't want to have to do that.  And then there's the whole thing about how Sera is so easily erased from the game, that makes me both want to protect her character and also mad that she was written with the intention of pissing people off to the point that they would want to kick her out.  WHY does it have to be the one and only lesbian?

 

What actually would happen if the "leading lady" of a Bioware game was bisexual or (gasp) lesbian?  Or for that matter, a plot relevant male character like Alistair or Solas?  The people who are sneering at Bioware right now for including LGBT characters at all in their games aren't appeased by how easily characters like Dorian, Sera, and Iron Bull can be dismissed from the game.  Who cares what those people would think about gay/bisexual characters who can't be chased away (or completely missed)?

 

 

To be fair, despite your initial 3 (Cass, Solas, and Varric),  everyone can be turned away. Those 3 are integral to the story.  I never felt it was 'the lesbian' being singled out.  I thought it was 'the brat' being singled out.  What of your complaints against Blackwall then who betrays your team?  There are clearly people on these forums who are upset at the thought of his character and some seem to have openly stated they left him to rot in a cell.  What of Vivienne who I believe to be hetero looks upon those she deems lesser than herself with derision.  We have options to never even let these people set foot in our band of misfits.  The only catch here is that it was Sera who happened to be the juvenile.  I suppose you can say this is almost a repeat of Jack all over again and perhaps that's the writers fault.  Sera represents more than Jack does however.  She is the rage against the machine.  She bucks the trend and my inquisitor even mentions that keeping her around keeps the inquisition grounded.  I may not like how she acts like a juvenile, but her usefulness is necessary.  As is Blackwall,  as is Vivienne. 

 

As far as changing the status quo and going with a Lesbian as a leading lady, I can only say that Bioware is a business.  I'm not saying it's the only way or right,  but neither are things like DLC'ing us into oblivion.  Their business means they need to reach out to as many people as possible without trying to offend anyone and that alone means they're going to offend someone. 

[Efvie]

   My current quizzy and her are having whatever the female equivalent of a bromance is and I am loving it.

 

Like… a friendship marred by the constant need to assert manliness and neglect, because feelings and attachment are girly things?

[Efvie]

First, if DA:I existed in a vacuum, you'd have a point. But it doesn't, it exists in the heavily discriminatory world you mention. Because of this, representation matters.

 

That’s exactly what I said.

 

Second, you are assuming that the world of Thedas is not persecuting, oppressive, etc. when it comes to sexuality. It might seem that way because it is barely mentioned (however, pay attention to some of the conversation options available to the Inquisitor when talking to/about Krem when the subject comes up), but given how oppression is a major theme in the main storyline, I'm having trouble imagining that in a world where many people will happily assume that all mages do blood magic and are Abominations waiting to happen, and even features a country where you can get ostracized for being unfashionable at a ball, no one will bat an eyelash at deviating from the sexual norm. (also, iirc Krem even hints at being discriminated against in Tevinter) So I'm going to assume that the fact it is barely mentioned is do to Bioware not wanting to open that particular can of worms, not because it isn't there.

 

You’re assuming more than I am. I’m assuming based on the lore, the codex, and the in-game events and reactions that sexual orientation is—with some exceptions—unimportant. As such, it is not character-definingly formative. There could be a gay Collin with exact same lines as the straight Cullen and you’d think both equally well realized.

 

It’s understandable to have trouble imagining it. It’s a deep trauma in the modern world.

[syllogi]

 

To be fair, despite your initial 3 (Cass, Solas, and Varric),  everyone can be turned away. Those 3 are integral to the story.  I never felt it was 'the lesbian' being singled out.  I thought it was 'the brat' being singled out.  What of your complaints against Blackwall then who betrays your team?  There are clearly people on these forums who are upset at the thought of his character and some seem to have openly stated they left him to rot in a cell.  What of Vivienne who I believe to be hetero looks upon those she deems lesser than herself with derision.  We have options to never even let these people set foot in our band of misfits.  The only catch here is that it was Sera who happened to be the juvenile.  I suppose you can say this is almost a repeat of Jack all over again and perhaps that's the writers fault.  Sera represents more than Jack does however.  She is the rage against the machine.  She bucks the trend and my inquisitor even mentions that keeping her around keeps the inquisition grounded.  I may not like how she acts like a juvenile, but her usefulness is necessary.  As is Blackwall,  as is Vivienne. 

 

As far as changing the status quo and going with a Lesbian as a leading lady, I can only say that Bioware is a business.  I'm not saying it's the only way or right,  but neither are things like DLC'ing us into oblivion.  Their business means they need to reach out to as many people as possible without trying to offend anyone and that alone means they're going to offend someone. 

 

My point about the way you can turn away these particular party members is that so far, in the two DA games that had gender gating on romances, the ones that are plot relevant with characters who can't be completely chased away (at least for the majority of the game, Morrigan comes back after the Landsmeet no matter what, and Alistair can't go away until that point) are straight.  I don't think it's a coincidence, and I'd really like Bioware to take the risk and have at least bisexual, if not gay/lesbian, plot relevant love interests next time around.

 

The difference between Blackwall (who I don't have a major problem with, actually, I'm not sure if you meant *me* when you said something about a complaint against him), and Sera, as an example, is that once you recruit Blackwall, you don't actually have the choice to kick him out until the big reveal.  With Sera, the dialogue says "Sera will join your party FOR NOW" and you have to be careful not to kick her out of your party every time you talk to her and want to choose the "investigate" option.  To me it sends a message to me that Bioware made this character with the idea that she's going to upset people and she's disposable.  Yeah, it bothers me that they chose someone that they think can be thrown away to be the only lesbian character, and when considering that Josephine doesn't seem capable to even acknowledge that she's in a same sex relationship, it actually is pretty disappointing that I'm told that Cassandra is too...something...to be bisexual.  I don't even know.

 

Mass Effect as a franchise didn't seem to be hurt by having Liara as a "leading lady" character, even though they appeared to be loathe to label her as bisexual.  I don't see the issue with doing something similar in Dragon Age.  I have to admit, I really don't see the attraction in Solas, for example, but I wouldn't be shocked and appalled by the idea that he was interested in male elves as well as ladies.

[AWTEW]

Bioware do have a plot-relevant bi-sexual, and her name starts with L.

[syllogi]

Bioware do have a plot-relevant bi-sexual, and her name starts with L.

 

Now Leliana is plot relevant, when she has no dialogue indicating her sexuality unless you make it so in Dragon Age Keep, but back in DA:O, you could easily turn her down in Lothering and never see her again.

 

I do think the devs like Leliana as a character, which is why she got a DLC, cameo in DA2, and big role in this game, but her role in the main plot of DA:O, when she was romanceable, was pretty much non-existent.

[daveliam]

Bioware do have a plot-relevant bi-sexual, and her name starts with L.

Agreed. Leliana is certainly plot relevant. It is interesting to note that she only became plot relevant in the second game, when she became an NPC and no longer an LI. Probably not significant, but it is interesting nonetheless.

[Steelcan]

Agreed. Leliana is certainly plot relevant. It is interesting to note that she only became plot relevant in the second game, when she became an NPC and no longer an LI. Probably not significant, but it is interesting nonetheless.

the plot armor she wears is mighty indeed

[Farangbaa]

the plot armor she wears is mighty indeed

 

Plot armor is one of those video game skills I'd love in real life.

 

Just like new game+

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Mass Effect as a franchise didn't seem to be hurt by having Liara as a "leading lady" character, even though they appeared to be loathe to label her as bisexual.  I don't see the issue with doing something similar in Dragon Age.  I have to admit, I really don't see the attraction in Solas, for example, but I wouldn't be shocked and appalled by the idea that he was interested in male elves as well as ladies.

Ugh...i remember that, was pretty dumb IMO how BW tried their hardest to convince people the FemShep/Liara romance wasn't a real lesbian relationship just cos asari have 1 gender

[Sully13]

question dose it fukin matter who you can and cant shag?

i mean that dose the characters gender, sexyality or even eye colour deminish there character or impact the story?

[SpiritMuse]

Like… a friendship marred by the constant need to assert manliness and neglect, because feelings and attachment are girly things?

...No?

The female equivalent, not the opposite.

[Sully13]

Ugh...i remember that, was pretty dumb IMO how BW tried their hardest to convince people the FemShep/Liara romance wasn't a real lesbian relationship just cos asari have 1 gender

still pissed of Fox though.

[DaemionMoadrin]

still pissed of Fox though.

 

There is no way you can avoid that. Fox News is always looking for something to complain about, that's their entire reason for existing. Even if they praise something now, they might rip it apart next year just because they can use it to rile up more people.

Every tiny little issue is being blown out of proportion, it's the end times, people!

[DetcelferVisionary]

My point about the way you can turn away these particular party members is that so far, in the two DA games that had gender gating on romances, the ones that are plot relevant with characters who can't be completely chased away (at least for the majority of the game, Morrigan comes back after the Landsmeet no matter what, and Alistair can't go away until that point) are straight.  I don't think it's a coincidence, and I'd really like Bioware to take the risk and have at least bisexual, if not gay/lesbian, plot relevant love interests next time around.

 

The difference between Blackwall (who I don't have a major problem with, actually, I'm not sure if you meant *me* when you said something about a complaint against him), and Sera, as an example, is that once you recruit Blackwall, you don't actually have the choice to kick him out until the big reveal.  With Sera, the dialogue says "Sera will join your party FOR NOW" and you have to be careful not to kick her out of your party every time you talk to her and want to choose the "investigate" option.  To me it sends a message to me that Bioware made this character with the idea that she's going to upset people and she's disposable.  Yeah, it bothers me that they chose someone that they think can be thrown away to be the only lesbian character, and when considering that Josephine doesn't seem capable to even acknowledge that she's in a same sex relationship, it actually is pretty disappointing that I'm told that Cassandra is too...something...to be bisexual.  I don't even know.

 

Mass Effect as a franchise didn't seem to be hurt by having Liara as a "leading lady" character, even though they appeared to be loathe to label her as bisexual.  I don't see the issue with doing something similar in Dragon Age.  I have to admit, I really don't see the attraction in Solas, for example, but I wouldn't be shocked and appalled by the idea that he was interested in male elves as well as ladies.

 

I wasn't stating the Blackwall mention as a personal accusation. I was pointing my hook like Captain Hook in the movie Hook to the BSN crew of members.    The Leliana reference from previous posts I think is valid so I'll just throw that up as an example that Bioware hasn't forsaken your cause and desires.  I also think Liara fits but you may disagree.  I don't blame Bioware for testing these waters slowly and I admit, Liara was rather creative in that respect in an attempt to soften the blow for the... fragile mind.

 

With all due respect,  I find fault with your line of suggesting that Sera is being picked on due to her sexuality as the primary reason. You're a defender of your ilk of which I totally understand but I've seen plenty of hetero villains and team members who I disliked and so did many others.  I'm not trying to dismiss that lesbians have not been singled out in the past, because they have.  One person who semi joins your crew in ME was Diana Allers who I wanted to jettison into space immediately.  I don't actually know if she is bi,  but I never saw her that way.  She was an absolutely horrible romance option, coy, and manipulative.  There was a huge outcry over her character.  Should I feel the same way about her as you do about Sera?  I'm privileged in the sense that because I often have hetero characters to play with, I'm not easily offended when another hetero character is antagonistic.  Though, I would say Vivienne walks a fine line.  

 

 When gamers state (and typically they seem to be hetero) "I just don't want to deal with all this romance mumbo jumbo", I have a level of empathy.  With rare exception for fully fleshed out characters where the story feels completely canon as is the case with my character with Cassandra and my wifes character with Solas...   relationships in Bioware are often truly nothing more than a mini-game that ends with a sex scene as a reward. It's amazing to me that "mature and tasteful " gets stretched in this regard. To extrapolate further I was extremely pleased this time around that not all the characters have a sex scene lest they prove the statements which have all been said before...  that this is a perverts paradise to put it bluntly. Do we want a game that has a message to share or a game that suits sexual needs?  The fallout here in the end is that the relationships lack any meaning or value and as a result impedes upon the quality of the rest of the story. 

 

On one hand I think Bioware should just be allowed to write the stories that inspire them because it's their game.  ME3 unfortunately proved that this is not entirely the case.  On the other hand I see the need for people to want to feel represented as their personal social justice feels cramped.  I only draw the line when Bioware throws in characters to suit the whims of every single underrepresented sexual orientation out there into a single game.  It does sometimes feel a bit ridiculous.  The characters and their stories should have meaning and on that I think we can all agree.  Is there enough writers,  production crew, gameplay and whatever other bits that makes a Bioware game a Bioware game to support the wants of everyone in a single game? Are we going to be able to have characters we dislike without offending someones sexuality simply by association? 

 

I worry we'll dilute the quality if the purpose for every character is to be a representative.  Without trying to have a circular discussion, it is literally impossible to satisfy all, except perhaps in the long term. By that I mean in one game,  you may have your due and get to enjoy a lesbian in the lime light, while another game another representative gets their chance.  Everyone should feel their voice heard and have their time in the sun! ...but all in one game?  Perish the thought!  I want quality over quantity.  Then again, that is my want and luckily for me...  I'm not Bioware,  I don't have to sweat bullets worrying about trying to appease everyone's desires and somehow feel that I actually have any creative license at all without pissing someone off or stepping on any toes.

 

Perhaps I'm over reading your sentiments, but I'm sorry you feel attacked (for lack of better words) through the treatment of Sera.  I just want there to be characters I'm at complete or partial odds with.  Blackwall, Leliana, Vivienne, and Sera all rubbed me wrong at times but I LOVED that. For me,  their orientation was inconsequential.  I need that level of conflict within my band of misfits or I don't feel resistance to my beliefs, without which, I would lack conviction in those beliefs because it wasn't forged into steel through debates and confabulation with said characters and others.

[Sully13]

There is no way you can avoid that. Fox News is always looking for something to complain about, that's their entire reason for existing. Even if they praise something now, they might rip it apart next year just because they can use it to rile up more people.

Every tiny little issue is being blown out of proportion, it's the end times, people!

That reminds me i have to go kill a christmass tree.

My point was the Not real lesbian part. even if it wasnt two women your Shepard could still be a lesbian. only shaging a Alien Squidsmurf.

[syllogi]

With all due respect,  I find fault with your line of suggesting that Sera is being picked on due to her sexuality as the primary reason. You're a defender of your ilk of which I totally understand but I've seen plenty of hetero villains and team members who I disliked and so did many others.  I'm not trying to dismiss that lesbians have not been singled out in the past, because they have.  One person who semi joins your crew in ME was Diana Allers who I wanted to jettison into space immediately.  I don't actually know if she is bi,  but I never saw her that way.  She was an absolutely horrible romance option, coy, and manipulative.  There was a huge outcry over her character.  Should I feel the same way about her as you do about Sera?  I'm privileged in the sense that because I often have hetero characters to play with, I'm not easily offended when another hetero character is antagonistic.  Though, I would say Vivienne walks a fine line.  

 

I'm definitely not suggesting that Sera is being picked on because she's a lesbian character, I'm saying that Bioware created her to be comic relief, trollish, difficult to get along with, and made it easy to get rid of her or never meet her at all...and made her the only lesbian romance option seemingly as an afterthought.  

 

I worry we'll dilute the quality if the purpose for every character is to be a representative.  Without trying to have a circular discussion, it is literally impossible to satisfy all, except perhaps in the long term. By that I mean in one game,  you may have your due and get to enjoy a lesbian in the lime light, while another game another representative gets their chance.  Everyone should feel their voice heard and have their time in the sun! ...but all in one game?  Perish the thought!  I want quality over quantity.  Then again, that is my want and luckily for me...  I'm not Bioware,  I don't have to sweat bullets worrying about trying to appease everyone's desires and somehow feel that I actually have any creative license at all without pissing someone off or stepping on any toes.

 

That's a nice thought, but I've been playing Bioware games since 1999, and playing out their romances since 2001.  I've seen the "leading lady" type female deuteragonist be designated as the male player character's main love interest again, and again, and again.  I think it's worth pointing out the issues that players like me have with Sera and Josephine's romances, and asking them to take feedback into account for the future.

[Solace]

No thanks OP, I prefer to have characters with their own preferences, not digital sex toys like the DA2 cast minus sibling, Seb, Varric, and Aveline to an extent.

I agree. Having no gender restrictions would destroy immersion for me in regards to caring about the characters in-game. Having characters with their own opinions and sexual preferences is important for an RPG game to me.