476 réponses à ce sujet

[AEve1]

I agree. Having no gender restrictions would destroy immersion for me in regards to caring about the characters in-game. Having characters with their own opinions and sexual preferences is important for an RPG game to me.

What do you mean "sexual preferences"? The LIs in DA2 were all bisexual, as confirmed by Word of God from the writers. And they definitely had their own opinions.

 

Now, if you're saying that all romanceable characters should have different sexual preferences, that's an entirely different thing. However, if I'm told that a character lacking a gender or sex or race preference stops players from being able to care about that character... well, that's pretty disturbing.

[Tayah]

You're right that the obliviousness of Josie was presented to us by the wonderful threats from Liliana.  I still perceived the situation not matching the qualities of the character.  Even by the end,  she couldn't make a connection of my motives but she could on my war table have an almost intimate understanding of what moves and persuades nations.  Just created a disconnect I couldn't escape from.

 

When you state that her romance felt more like a hetero romance and less like a bi romance actually underlines exactly what I'm trying to express why bi relationship writing feels off.  We picked up on two completely different issues but relatively came to the same conclusion and this very well could stem from our orientation.  I remain convinced that the only way to solve bi characters is to have aspects of the story needs to be entirely re-written based on the sex of the person initiating the romance.  It is true that my connection to Cass grew out of having spent more time with her and creating a foundation for better understanding and thus a more fulfilling relationship for my inquisitor.  By comparison Josie's felt horribly shallow which is unfortunate for anyone interested in that potential romance.

Yes I agree that there definitely needs to be some changes based on pc gender and in some cases race where that would be important for a bi character, I can understand Bull not caring about race that's obvious in his merc band and as a Qunari to some degree but Josephine is a human noble and head of her house so a romance with a pc of any non-human race ought to acknowledge that could create a scandal at least and a relationship with a female character has other issues as well so to make the character believable they do need to be addressed. I would say that being an advisor might impact on Josie's development but Cullen is also an advisor and his romance though race gated is apparently well liked so that suggests it could be done well for an advisor but perhaps in being straight it means less needs to be added to make the romance work because you have less variables for who he can romance... female humans and elves.

 

When you state that her romance felt more like a hetero romance and less like a bi romance actually underlines exactly what I'm trying to express why bi relationship writing feels off.  We 

To be fair, despite your initial 3 (Cass, Solas, and Varric),  everyone can be turned away. Those 3 are integral to the story.  I never felt it was 'the lesbian' being singled out.  I thought it was 'the brat' being singled out.  What of your complaints against Blackwall then who betrays your team?  There are clearly people on these forums who are upset at the thought of his character and some seem to have openly stated they left him to rot in a cell.  What of Vivienne who I believe to be hetero looks upon those she deems lesser than herself with derision.  We have options to never even let these people set foot in our band of misfits.  The only catch here is that it was Sera who happened to be the juvenile.  I suppose you can say this is almost a repeat of Jack all over again and perhaps that's the writers fault.  Sera represents more than Jack does however.  She is the rage against the machine.  She bucks the trend and my inquisitor even mentions that keeping her around keeps the inquisition grounded.  I may not like how she acts like a juvenile, but her usefulness is necessary.  As is Blackwall,  as is Vivienne. 

 

As far as changing the status quo and going with a Lesbian as a leading lady, I can only say that Bioware is a business.  I'm not saying it's the only way or right,  but neither are things like DLC'ing us into oblivion.  Their business means they need to reach out to as many people as possible without trying to offend anyone and that alone means they're going to offend someone. 

I think the problem is that Sera is the only one with a persistant option to kick out at any time while with the others you can only kick them out at certain points. I'm one of those people that don't like Blackwall and didn't even before I found out his twist. If I have the option to kick out Sera at any moment why can't I have the same option with Blackwall?

 

I'm realist enough to know I'm unlikely to see a lesbian leading lady any time soon but I'd still like to see a lesbian/bi character be more developed and have more significance to part of the main plot even if they're not going to get Cass, Alistair, Morrigan level development and significance.

[DetcelferVisionary]

I think the problem is that Sera is the only one with a persistant option to kick out at any time while with the others you can only kick them out at certain points. I'm one of those people that don't like Blackwall and didn't even before I found out his twist. If I have the option to kick out Sera at any moment why can't I have the same option with Blackwall?

 

I'm realist enough to know I'm unlikely to see a lesbian leading lady any time soon but I'd still like to see a lesbian/bi character be more developed and have more significance to part of the main plot even if they're not going to get Cass, Alistair, Morrigan level development and significance.

 

I sorta find it strange that none of the DA2 relationships seem to count and neither does Liara from ME.  Am I mistaken?  

 

I felt that the reasoning for allowing Sera to get booted is due out of all the characters,  she'll probably be the most antagonistic.  She is arguably one of thee most amoral characters of the bunch.   There seems to be general consensus on these forums, that is only a guess from looking at the total number of pages on the "lets hate sera" thread, which I may or may not have commented on...   I plead the fifth.  

 

At any rate, it appears Bioware was aware of this and provided a way out.  I just don't have a bone to pick I guess because I'm not even remotely invested in anything to do with the character.  I suppose if the only heterosexual was a complete buffoon who rubbed everyone wrong and Bioware offered an immediate "get the hell off my lawn" option that would be deeply unsettling, more so do to my privileged upbringing and being unable to imagine living in a world where being straight is demonized. I literally can't picture it and I imagine that if it were me on the receiving end it would turn me into a hateful little troll...  not something I'm proud of,  but honest about at any rate.  

 

I don't find the idea of a lesbian or bi lead character all that strange,  especially if a female character.  I think in the minds of most it was already achieved with Liara who had a major roll in 2 of the 3 ME titles.  What is one more LGBT lead at this point?  It's very difficult for me to see an issue because I'm not the one being offended.  I feel that due to bi options even being available to begin with somehow satisfies straight, gay and  lesbian in a way. Just not in a quality fashion.  I had to settle for such in DA2 and although I thought those relationship were complete S***, I was never feeling that I got slighted because there was no straight relationships to be had. 

[Spirit Keeper]

Look,  the problem is simple,  bi-option relationships suffer in quality writing.  I tried Josephine and it was,  for me,  my least favorite relationship thus far.  Where as,  when I tried Cass,  it was a night and day difference.  

 

If they truly want to solve this problem,  then separate dialogue needs to be set for both.  But why bother?  Not being able to romance everyone under the sun really shouldn't be that big of a deal, right?  At the end of the day,  it's just a game.  I'm not sure if I want the writers focusing more on relationships at this point.  There is a host of other bits that could use more attention.

It's funny, I tried Dorian's romance I didn't like it. Iron Bull however has a lot more quality and overall content for his romance. So I don't think it's the sexuality of the relationship that determines the overall quality of it.

[Tayah]

I sorta find it strange that none of the DA2 relationships seem to count and neither does Liara from ME.  Am I mistaken?  

 

I felt that the reasoning for allowing Sera to get booted is due out of all the characters,  she'll probably be the most antagonistic.  She is arguably one of thee most amoral characters of the bunch.   There seems to be general consensus on this on the forums though that is only a guess from looking at the total number of pages on the "lets hate sera" thread which I may or may not have commented on...   I plead the fifth.  

 

At any rate, it seems Bioware was aware of this and provided a way out.  I just don't have a bone to pick I guess because I'm not even remotely invested in anything to do with the character.  I suppose if the only heterosexual was a complete buffoon who rubbed everyone wrong and Bioware offered an immediate "get the hell off my lawn" option that would be deeply unsettling, more so do to my privileged upbringing and being unable to imagine living in a world where being straight is demonized. I literally can't picture it and I imagine that if it were me on the receiving end it would turn me into a hateful little troll...  not something I'm proud of,  but honest about at any rate.  

 

I don't find the idea of a lesbian or bi lead character all that strange,  especially if a female character.  I think in the minds of most it was already achieved with Liara who had a major roll in 2 of the 3 ME titles.  What is one more LGBT lead at this point?  It's very difficult for me to see an issue because I'm not the one being offended.  I feel that due to bi options even being available to begin with somehow satisfies straight, gay and  lesbian in a way. Just not in a quality fashion.  I had to settle for such in DA2 and although I thought those relationship were complete S***, I was never feeling that I got slighted because there was no straight relationships to be had. 

I agree Sera is pretty antagonistic but Viv is also fairly polarising and can't be kicked out. I only feel it's a problem because only one character was singled out as a kick out any time character and she's the lesbian. If they all had it or none had it then that would be fine. Don't get me wrong I'm not a Sera fan and I don't necessarily hate Viv and want her gone, others find Cole incredibly creepy and would probably like to be able to kick him out any time too judging from some other threads but since different people are going to like different characters and perhaps not like others if you want to give everyone the same chance it makes sense for it be an all or none approach... except for the fact that would probably show the vital story companions because you couldn't have an option to kick them out I suppose.

 

In DA2 yes Anders is plot important but you can actually skip Isabella and Fenris altogether, just never recruit them at all. Merrill is important to finishing Flemith's quest and joins you after that quest but doesn't significantly impact the plot later. Now since I always recruit and romance Isabella I agree that she brings a lot to the plot in Act 2 and I think it's better having her there but she wasn't made essential to the plot either. Also I think the fact DA2 was so rushed severely impacted the quality of the romances in that game too.

 

As for Liara it's complicated by the fact she was written straight initially and left in for femSheps (they recorded every line regardless of gender so there are maleShep/Kaiden audio files and femShep/Ashley files to some degree apparently), but the devs on ME then said that Liara was not a lesbian/bi romance because she was mono-gendered and despite the Asari always being referred to as female she didn't count as an "lgbt romance". I think of her as a female romance but a lot of people were upset by the comments and the controversy it lead to at the time and I admit I found it very confusing as well.

 

Personally I like Liara and she's an example of how it could work with a bi lead character but she wasn't intended that way... and it would be nice to have it work with a character the devs don't back away from. Also I don't feel slighted by the romances in these games, if I gave that impression it wasn't intended. Bioware is one of the few companies to let me play a lesbian character at all. I'd just like my options to be as varied, important and interesting as the straight ones, and that doesn't mean there has to be the same number, just that my choices make sense in the game world and at least one is fairly likeable please.  

[Efvie]

As for Liara it's complicated by the fact she was written straight initially and left in for femSheps (they recorded every line regardless of gender so there are maleShep/Kaiden audio files and femShep/Ashley files to some degree apparently), but the devs on ME then said that Liara was not a lesbian/bi romance because she was mono-gendered and despite the Asari always being referred to as female she didn't count as an "lgbt romance".

 

I think you’re conflating two things. The asari and by extension Liara were always pansexual, and intended for both M! and F!Shep. The fact that they tried to backpedal the nomenclature to appease Fox News or whoever is an entirely different matter.

 

This is, however, probably veering off topic. In case anyone had anything to talk past others still.

[RINNZ]

I agree Sera is pretty antagonistic but Viv is also fairly polarising and can't be kicked out. I only feel it's a problem because only one character was singled out as a kick out any time character and she's the lesbian. If they all had it or none had it then that would be fine. Don't get me wrong I'm not a Sera fan and I don't necessarily hate Viv and want her gone, others find Cole incredibly creepy and would probably like to be able to kick him out any time too judging from some other threads but since different people are going to like different characters and perhaps not like others if you want to give everyone the same chance it makes sense for it be an all or none approach... except for the fact that would probably show the vital story companions because you couldn't have an option to kick them out I suppose.

In DA2 yes Anders is plot important but you can actually skip Isabella and Fenris altogether, just never recruit them at all. Merrill is important to finishing Flemith's quest and joins you after that quest but doesn't significantly impact the plot later. Now since I always recruit and romance Isabella I agree that she brings a lot to the plot in Act 2 and I think it's better having her there but she wasn't made essential to the plot either. Also I think the fact DA2 was so rushed severely impacted the quality of the romances in that game too.

As for Liara it's complicated by the fact she was written straight initially and left in for femSheps (they recorded every line regardless of gender so there are maleShep/Kaiden audio files and femShep/Ashley files to some degree apparently), but the devs on ME then said that Liara was not a lesbian/bi romance because she was mono-gendered and despite the Asari always being referred to as female she didn't count as an "lgbt romance". I think of her as a female romance but a lot of people were upset by the comments and the controversy it lead to at the time and I admit I found it very confusing as well.

Personally I like Liara and she's an example of how it could work with a bi lead character but she wasn't intended that way... and it would be nice to have it work with a character the devs don't back away from. Also I don't feel slighted by the romances in these games, if I gave that impression it wasn't intended. Bioware is one of the few companies to let me play a lesbian character at all. I'd just like my options to be as varied, important and interesting as the straight ones, and that doesn't mean there has to be the same number, just that my choices make sense in the game world and at least one is fairly likeable please.

But....


Vivienne isn't even romancable.

[Grieving Natashina]

But....


Vivienne isn't even romancable.

And that changes the point of Tayah's post...how?  The post just pointed out that it seems odd that Vivienne, who is a rather divisive character, cannot be kicked out.  Cole, another divisive character, cannot be kicked out after a certain point in the game.  Same with Blackwall, excepting his personal quest.

 

It doesn't settle very well with some players that the first lesbian companion that BioWare has ever done, regardless of LI status, can be kicked out at any time in the game.  I honestly thought it was a bug at first, until some posters corrected that assumption.

[Tayah]

I think you’re conflating two things. The asari and by extension Liara were always pansexual, and intended for both M! and F!Shep. The fact that they tried to backpedal the nomenclature to appease Fox News or whoever is an entirely different matter.

 

This is, however, probably veering off topic. In case anyone had anything to talk past others still.

Could be, either way it ended up upsetting a lot of people though which is why I was originally not talking about her.

 

And that changes the point of Tayah's post...how?  The post just pointed out that it seems odd that Vivienne, who is a rather divisive character, cannot be kicked out.  Cole, another divisive character, cannot be kicked out after a certain point in the game.  Same with Blackwall, excepting his personal quest.

 

It doesn't settle very well with some players that the first lesbian companion that BioWare has ever done, regardless of LI status, can be kicked out at any time in the game.  I honestly thought it was a bug at first, until some posters corrected that assumption.

And yes thank you Natashina that's exactly what I meant. 

[DetcelferVisionary]

Personally I like Liara and she's an example of how it could work with a bi lead character but she wasn't intended that way... and it would be nice to have it work with a character the devs don't back away from. Also I don't feel slighted by the romances in these games, if I gave that impression it wasn't intended. Bioware is one of the few companies to let me play a lesbian character at all. I'd just like my options to be as varied, important and interesting as the straight ones, and that doesn't mean there has to be the same number, just that my choices make sense in the game world and at least one is fairly likeable please.  

 

Well I hope for you and others, you receive that story you can cherish.  

 

High five!

 

 

 

I wouldn't be too harsh on Bioware for not trying to start a S*** storm due to politics.  ...too late I suppose. They just want to make great games that everyone can enjoy.

[Dakota Strider]

And I think warriors and rogues should be able to use magic staffs, and cast fireballs and other cool magic stuff.  Its not faaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiir that only mages get to do those cool sparkly things.  I think mages and warriors should be able to pick locks. Its not faaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiir that only rogues get to do the cool sneaky things.  And I think that mages and rogues should be able to wear the heaviest armor and shields, and carry those big ass swords, axes and hammers.  Its not faaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiir that only warriors get to act so big and strong.

[Voragoras]

Disagree with gender-gating romances, agree with race-gating them. I find barriers born from race and culture far more interesting from a narrative perspective than a throw-away "sorry I don't like penis/vagina" that adds no depth to the character beyond a self-aggrandising rejection scene created solely to brag about how "realistic" the options are.

 

I can find no reason, from a writer's perspective, that creating a purely heterosexual/homosexual character adds more depth or believability to their personalities than if they were bisexual. If anything, it limits the possibility for exploring two characters whose personalities would be well-suited to a fascinating exploration of romantic entanglement, only to be prohibited by arbitrarily assigned sexualities.

 

Yes, it is arguably more "realistic", but this isn't real life. This is a game that supposedly values player choice, and if the argument for restricting player choice is that it adds narrative depth, I don't see it. It's certainly not taken advantage of in this game, where the restrictions seem purely random and offer no insight into the characters' histories or the relationships' futures based on those grounds.

[Eonetic]

I think BioWare should stop with the "romances" alltogether.

[Sully13]

would save on space on these forums what whith 600 threads bitching.

[Grieving Natashina]

would save on space on these forums what whith 600 threads bitching.

No, because there would be twice as many threads begging BioWare to bring romances back.  You think it's bad now?

[Sully13]

NoDA4 then easy solution... nah just more ugly people...

nah but then there would be no

 

[Solbranthius]

I'm very firmly in favour of future companions being bisexual. I think it's the best compromise, really. If you don't want to romance them then you don't have to and if you do want to romance them then the option would be there. At the end of the day the story is very flexible already and so having our companions sexuality be a flexible thing doesn't strike me as odd at all. It'd simply be in the hands of the player and allow everybody to do what they want to do.

[Panda]

I think BioWare should stop with the "romances" alltogether.

 

That would take a lot of replay value of the game away and pretty much degrade whole game experience. Not for all, but for many.

[wright1978]

I'm very firmly in favour of future companions being bisexual. I think it's the best compromise, really. If you don't want to romance them then you don't have to and if you do want to romance them then the option would be there. At the end of the day the story is very flexible already and so having our companions sexuality be a flexible thing doesn't strike me as odd at all. It'd simply be in the hands of the player and allow everybody to do what they want to do.

Yeah my stance is that the romance able companions should be bi-sexual/playersexuality. The non romanceable companions and npc's can then be used if you really want to tell a story that requires a companion to have a fixed or implied fixed sexuality

[Sully13]

Sod it we will all be like this.

[Grieving Natashina]

Speak for yourself.  My husband is allergic to cats and we aren't having kids.  

[Fandango]

I think David and his team did a terrific job with the companions and fully support Inquisition having a cast of characters with clearly defined romantic identities of their own. Long may it continue.

[Felya87]

I prefer the gender gated romance. That way, I can "force" myself to open my mind and try characters with a different sexuality. I know with the "all BI" I would never even try a S/S romance.

[DetcelferVisionary]

I think BioWare should stop with the "romances" alltogether.

 

I'm honestly ok with this.  Not because I think we should "let the whiners win" but I get less out of the romances and generally more out of the friendships and the story.  Even if it was perhaps only for one game.  Does every movie have to tell a romance?  No.  I think it should be perfectly acceptable for Bioware to ignore romances for a game,  if only to explore other ideas.  They can always return to them later.

 

 

No, because there would be twice as many threads begging BioWare to bring romances back.  You think it's bad now?

 

But would there be the same level of vitriol?  I'm willing there would be a LOT of complaints...  but NO ONE could ever convince me that romances are necessary for a game to be great or that somehow Bioware's game will be crap without it.  Obviously I can't speak for everyone - but I have faith people would build a bridge.  Seeing as this will never happen it's really quite moot, but fun for me to speculate.  In fact, I think my interest in the story would be peeked if I knew there wasn't going to be romancing.  I imagine they could create a lot more interesting dialogue and twists and turns in the story, instead of shoehorn in forced relationships.  

 

In fact, because of this status quo, they've now boxed themselves into a corner. 

[Vanth]

My own personal opinion is that Bioware dilutes the their characters by defining them by their sexuality. I realise that sexuality is important to teenagers and teenagers are the demographic that they are aiming at, but most mature, emotionally developed people are so much more than just their sexuality. This should be especially true amongst a group of characters coming together to fight a 'great evil' and save the world. 

 

I am not saying that all characters should be bisexual and romancable by all genders. I am saying that a romance option should be something rather special and unusual amongst the characters who you control. By all means have a romance, but make sure it is relevant to the story rather than some tacked on dating sim mini game. Make it heartbreaking in places, warm in others, filled with character interaction rather than titilation. I would much rather they kept it tasteful and discreet.