476 réponses à ce sujet

[RINNZ]

Speak for yourself. My husband is allergic to cats and we aren't having kids.

Sorry, lady. But if he's allergic to cats then you gotta let him go.

[RINNZ]

And that changes the point of Tayah's post...how? The post just pointed out that it seems odd that Vivienne, who is a rather divisive character, cannot be kicked out. Cole, another divisive character, cannot be kicked out after a certain point in the game. Same with Blackwall, excepting his personal quest.

It doesn't settle very well with some players that the first lesbian companion that BioWare has ever done, regardless of LI status, can be kicked out at any time in the game. I honestly thought it was a bug at first, until some posters corrected that assumption.

Eh. I guess.

[daveliam]

......I realise that sexuality is important to teenagers and teenagers are the demographic that they are aiming at........

 

Huh?  Sexuality is important to many people, not just teenagers.  And I think it's fairly obvious that, given the M rating, teenagers aren't their intended demographic, or they have a very narrow view of their intended audience.  I mean, logically, this statement doesn't even make sense.

 

My own personal opinion is that Bioware dilutes the their characters by defining them by their sexuality. I realise that sexuality is important to teenagers and teenagers are the demographic that they are aiming at, but most mature, emotionally developed people are so much more than just their sexuality. This should be especially true amongst a group of characters coming together to fight a 'great evil' and save the world. 

 

 

Have you played the game?  That's a serious question.  I'm not sure how anyone who has played the game could seriously make the argument that any of the characters are 'defined by their sexuality'.  It's a silly suggestion, unless someone is speaking second hand and has not actually played the game.

 

 

I am not saying that all characters should be bisexual and romancable by all genders. I am saying that a romance option should be something rather special and unusual amongst the characters who you control. By all means have a romance, but make sure it is relevant to the story rather than some tacked on dating sim mini game. Make it heartbreaking in places, warm in others, filled with character interaction rather than titilation. I would much rather they kept it tasteful and discreet.

 

I agree that it would be better to see the romances better integrated into the main story.  As it here, I'm not seeing it.  They feel a bit like 'side stories', with the exception of Solas.  To be honest, I would also like to see less romance options, if it meant that they were more integrated into the main story.  With the exception of Anders and Kaidan, I can't think of a single m/m romance option that doesn't feel like a 'side story'.  It would be nice to get more m/m romances that are more like Carth, Bastila, Morrigan, Alistair, Liara, Miranda, etc.  Romances that directly impact the main story a bit.  

[Fandango]

It doesn't settle very well with some players that the first lesbian companion that BioWare has ever done, regardless of LI status, can be kicked out at any time in the game.

What's the problem exactly?

[Gileadan]

I think the "kick out Sera" option is not there because of some malicious intent, but because dialogues are written by different writers. There are subtle difference to "standard dialogues" everywhere - you can ask almost everyone about their opinion concerning your other companions, but the dialogue structure is different. Sometimes you ask about specific companions or advisors to get an opinion, sometimes you simply get to ask "What do you think of our advisors", for example, and the reply will concern a randomly picked advisor (Blackwall), sometimes you can ask another question, sometimes that question ends the dialogue (Vivienne).

 

I don't know enough about the writing and implementation of dialogue process, so I have no idea whether standard dialogue options like those get much peer review. Just food for thought.

 

Of course, I do realize it is unfortunate and looks odd that the first lesbian companion has the kick out option, but I really don't think BioWare would do that on purpose.

[Fandango]

Aye, it should absolutely go without saying that the whole falling out with Sera arc has less than nothing to do with her sexuality. Come on now peeps!

[syllogi]

Aye, it should absolutely go without saying that the whole falling out with Sera arc has less than nothing to do with her sexuality. Come on now peeps!

 

It's not even about falling out with her, it's having to make sure I don't accidentally kick her out of the party every single time I talk to her, because that option is right above "Investigate" on the dialogue wheel.  And why does it go without saying that it has nothing to do with her sexuality?  I obviously enjoy Bioware's games, but that doesn't mean they're above criticism, or questioning their motives for certain decisions.

[General TSAR]

Yeah, just like the DA 2 cast minus the majority of them.  You know, like Anders, Fenris, Isabela, and Merrill, whose preferences meant that they had no preferences.

 

Never change BSN.

They were playersexual hence pandering. 

[Fandango]

It's not even about falling out with her, it's having to make sure I don't accidentally kick her out of the party every single time I talk to her, because that option is right above "Investigate" on the dialogue wheel.  And why does it go without saying that it has nothing to do with her sexuality?  I obviously enjoy Bioware's games, but that doesn't mean they're above criticism, or questioning their motives for certain decisions.

Are you serious?

[Grieving Natashina]

Sorry, lady. But if he's allergic to cats then you gotta let him go.

Sorry, but no.  If you find someone to be with, and you've clocked over a decade and still love/sexually attracted to the person, then hold onto to them.  Besides, I like basset hounds more than cats anyway.  

 

 

It's not even about falling out with her, it's having to make sure I don't accidentally kick her out of the party every single time I talk to her, because that option is right above "Investigate" on the dialogue wheel.  And why does it go without saying that it has nothing to do with her sexuality?  I obviously enjoy Bioware's games, but that doesn't mean they're above criticism, or questioning their motives for certain decisions.

This.  I never thought that BioWare did this because Sera is a lesbian.  It just feels a little odd to some of the lesbian players that you could kick her out at anytime.  Nothing more, nothing less.

 

 

Are you serious?

Why wouldn't they be?  We're allowed to be critical, and we're allowed to speculate.  Relax, I don't see any torches and pitchforks being broken out.   I haven't accused BioWare of doing this on purpose and I haven't seen anyone else at least in this thread do so either.  We're allowed to apply a bit of a critical eye here though.  I think that if you can kick out Sera at any time, the same should go for the rest of the companions.  

 

I find the "Well, she's a Jenny" bit a little tough to swallow myself.   If I can't kick out the creepy kid/spirit thing at any point; if I can't do that to the guy that lies about being a Warden; the power-hungry but lovely mage; the Tevinter mage; or the guy that admits that he's a spy for a potential enemy of most of Thedas (the Qunari,); then I think we shouldn't be able to kick Sera out either.  

[daveliam]

They were playersexual hence pandering. 

 

Thank you TSAR.  I'm glad that you are here to correct the writers about their own work.  I know that they have said that the characters are bisexual, but it's good that you are here to remind us that you know better and that they are actually playersexual, despite the fact that there is literally zero in game evidence to support that claim.  Thank you, citizen!  Keep up your good work!

[Erudius]

The gender gating is good and it makes sense. Why should everyone be bisexual. Dorian personal quest and his somewhat exile would not make sense.

I do wish there were more female options for my male Inquisitor though... Harding would have been fine... if her romance had been developed.

[Fandango]

Why wouldn't they be?  We're allowed to be critical, and we're allowed to speculate.  Relax, I don't see any torches and pitchforks being broken out.   I haven't accused BioWare of doing this on purpose and I haven't seen anyone else at least in this thread do so either.  We're allowed to apply a bit of a critical eye here though.  I think that if you can kick out Sera at any time, the same should go for the rest of the companions.  
 
I find the "Well, she's a Jenny" bit a little tough to swallow myself.   If I can't kick out the creepy kid/spirit thing at any point; if I can't do that to the guy that lies about being a Warden; the power-hungry but lovely mage; the Tevinter mage; or the guy that admits that he's a spy for a potential enemy of most of Thedas (the Qunari,); then I think we shouldn't be able to kick Sera out either.

I'm relaxed enough Natashina, I'm just struggling to understand why people think that Sera's sexuality is in any way relevant when it comes to her leaving the party. Or why uniformity when it comes to the narrative treatment of very different NPC's is a good thing. Care to explain?

[syllogi]

Are you serious?

 

So you think that even questioning the motivation of Bioware when it comes to certain characters (let's be real, they play favorites, and also make decisions about characters based on perceived fan reaction) is beyond belief?  

 

You can be incredulous all you want, but if they want the accolades for LGBT representation, they also should be open to dialogue about what they got right and what could be better.

 

I get the feeling that there are people out there who are annoyed by any discussion of this kind at all.  We wouldn't have had bisexual love interests in DA:O or other than Liara in the ME franchise if it weren't for fan feedback on the subject.  If you don't care, fine, but I don't accept the label of "bad fan" just because this is a subject I'm invested in.

[Felya87]

I think (and maybe is just me) that the option for exclude Sera from the companion is just there because she can be quite annoyng as a character. (she sometimes grate my nerves quite a lot, and that icon is quite tempting. expecially if you have romanced a certain elf and you have "lost" a tatoo)

But let's just remeber that in DAO characters like Leliana or Sten (maybe winnie and Shale too? can't remember) had the option to make them leave always present. Is not a noveltry.

[Fandango]

So you think that even questioning the motivation of Bioware when it comes to certain characters (let's be real, they play favorites, and also make decisions about characters based on perceived fan reaction) is beyond belief?  
 
You can be incredulous all you want, but if they want the accolades for LGBT representation, they also should be open to dialogue about what they got right and what could be better.
 
I get the feeling that there are people out there who are annoyed by any discussion of this kind at all.  We wouldn't have had bisexual love interests in DA:O or other than Liara in the ME franchise if it weren't for fan feedback on the subject.  If you don't care, fine, but I don't accept the label of "bad fan" just because this is a subject I'm invested in.

I'm the last person to hold BioWare beyond reproach syllogi and I welcome discussion, so please don't go there! I'm just struggling to understand the progress of your argument when you claim that Sera's sexuality factors into her leaving the party.

Help me understand. Why is this a LGBT issue?

[King Dragonlord]

I'm relaxed enough Natashina, I'm just struggling to understand why people think that Sera's sexuality is in any way relevant when it comes to her potential exit from the party. Or why uniformity when it comes to the treatment of very different NPC's is a good thing. Care to explain?

Exactly. In a party of big important people, Sera is the person always mocking big important people and engaging in disruptive immature behavior. At least the antics Cole engages in around camp all have pure intentions centered around bringing happiness.

Sera is annoying, the writers knew that, and they also knew that no real life organization would tolerate her childishness. Including a perpetual kick out option was smart and the right thing to do.

[Fandango]

Exactly. In a party of big important people, Sera is the person always mocking big important people and engaging in disruptive immature behavior. At least the antics Cole engages in around camp all have pure intentions centered around bringing happiness.

Sera is annoying, the writers knew that, and they also knew that no real life organization would tolerate her childishness. Including a perpetual kick out option was smart and the right thing to do.

I found Sera to be hugely entertaining King, but I understand why others might dislike her so. You know - come to think of it - that she is such a polarising figure is testament to the great work that went into creating her. Terrific character.

[Grieving Natashina]

I'm relaxed enough Natashina, I'm just struggling to understand why people think that Sera's sexuality is in any way relevant when it comes to her potential exit from the party. Or why uniformity when it comes to the treatment of very different NPC's is a good thing. Care to explain?

Do I think BioWare treating one character different because of her sexuality?  No, not me personally.  I did state a sentiment I saw in the forums, but it is not one I share.

 

The only "uniformity" I'm asking for is to be able to kick other party members too.  Plenty of folks could rightly consider Blackwall, Cole, the Iron Bull, and Vivienne as being:

 

Too deceitful

Too potentially dangerous

Too risky since he's a spy for a huge enemy of Thedas.  

Too power hungry.  

 

The only excuse I'd heard about Sera was, "Well, she's a Jenny."  Which is pathetic, considering who/what we travel with in this game.   

[Elsariel]

I'm the last person to hold BioWare beyond reproach syllogi and I welcome discussion, so please don't go there! I'm just struggling to understand the progress of your argument when you claim that Sera's sexuality factors into her potential exit from the party.

Help me understand. Why is this a LGBT issue?

I'm also confused as to why it is automatically an LGBT issue. Perhaps it's a bug? Perhaps it's her personality? Seeing as we don't get the kick-out-at-any-time option for Dorian, I'm inclined to think it's not an LGBT issue specifically. Now, if he and Sera were the only two you could kick out at any time, I'd definitely get on the bandwagon.

Edit: a word

[LiquidLyrium]

This ended up being a long post.

 

My main issue with Cassandra is that she reads as bi. She talks about f!Hawke in the same dreamy tone as she does m!Hawke if you take the duel option with the Arishok. When my f!Adaar flirted with her, I got ALL THE SAME REACTIONS from her. The same chemistry, the same approvals, etc, etc etc. Up until she ran up to me and turned me down. Which actually really hurt because I kept expecting her to shut me down fairly quickly. Cullen at least had the decency to turn me down in the second conversation I ever had with him. 

 

Like, at no point does Cass ever indicate that she's not interested.  It took her a good.... 30+ hours of gameplay to finally getting around to rejecting my character and then, frankly, it felt incredibly strange. Because up until that point it played out EXACTLY the same as it would have with a male Inquisitor. (And frankly she tries to break it off at that point with the m!Quisitor too so like. 

 

And then there's the continual problem that Bioware seems to have with making the traditionally moral/religious LIs straight. (Leliana isn't quite an exception to this rule, in my opinion, because she also has the whole 'shady rogue spymaster bard ruthless killer' past going on.)

 

Sebastian, Ashley, Cullen, Cassandra, Alistair. These are all very much "white knight/morally upstanding" types of characters whose faith is central to their character. (I mean and even here, in DAI I felt like Leliana's faith took a backseat to things, which felt kind of strange, given that she can end up as Divine. And the fact that the first time we met her in DAO she introduces herself as "Hi the Maker has spoken to me, I must help you!" She did have a bit of a crisis of faith, and there were conversations that touched on it, but it just didn't feel like it mattered as much to Leliana in this game?)

 

I am not religious myself, nor particularly theistic or faithful, but there are members of the MOGAI/LGBTQUIA+ spectrum who are and it is already hard enough with people in real life trying to put restrictions on either their faith, themselves, or both, and it just seems... unnecessarily hurtful to reinforce that in fictional worlds as well.

 

I also really liked DA2's system, although I do wish they had come out and said the LIs were bisexual 3 years ago, instead of coining the term "playersexual" or whatever. We have had to deal with such BS since then. 

 

And it kills me, personally, that Sera is one of two f/f options, because I really can't stand her to be perfectly honest, and even if I could, it still seems like a step backwards to me. 

 

DAO you had 2 LIs for the Warden, one potentially of the same sex. In DA2, you had 4 LIs, 2 of which were potentially the same sex. (With the exception being Sebastian who added one more for f!Hawkes.)

 

in DAI, there are 8 LIs, but depending on who you are (and what race you play) the number of available romances varies wildly. F!Lavellans have the potential to pick from 6 LIs but only two of those are potentially f/f (or nb/f). If you wanted to play m!Cadash you have 4 options and the split is 2 and 2 there. If you want to play an f!Adaar you have 4 options which again breaks down to only two are going to be f/f.

No matter what race or gender you play, you only have two s/s options for romance, and given how many LIs there are in this game, that just seems... odd to me.

Frankly, I would have liked to see more bi LIs in addition to Dorian and Sera.

 

(also it was supposed to make "super story sense" that Solas was only into f!Lavellan. And given what we find out about him

Spoiler

why would a god being/demon/godlike thing/etc why would he care what gender Lavellan was? And given that the Dark Ritual 2.0 never happened, and the relationship is also being interpreted as ace in some parts of the fandom, I don't see why the devs felt it necessary to keep the information Solas has secret from m!Lavellans either. But you know, I thought it was weird that the aliens in ME were pretty much strictly hetero too. Dating outside my species??? Just fine! But you better fall in a certain place on the human gender spectrum!!

Like... what "justification" was there for THAT? Characters do not need "justification" to be anything but straight. And frankly it's also really tiring to see people as only seeing bisexual characters as "valid" or "Really bisexual" unless presented in a certain way. "You have to do XYZ before you are a TRUE BISEXUAL. You must give a resume proving you have had relations with one or more genders, or else your preferences don't exist." Like is the fact that they are interested in the PC regardless of gender not enough "proof" on the matter??

 

Like I do not gaf about straight male tears, I will say that much, but it just seems odd to me that the fandom is pretending that "4 straight vs 4 nonstraight" LIs stacks up to something equitable when it clearly does not? Like, you better like your s/s options, because you're gonna get reaaaally familiar with them if you don't want to play a m/f romance. There are 6 options for m/f romances, 2 for f/f, and 2 for m/m. Like, how is that remotely the same?

 

 

And I honestly wish people would stop claiming that bisexuality is "unrealistic" or it's "unrealistic" to have so many bisexuals around, like, we actually exist thank you. Sometimes more than one of us occupy a single city of circle of friends.

[syllogi]

I'm the last person to hold BioWare beyond reproach syllogi and I welcome discussion, so please don't go there! I'm just struggling to understand the progress of your argument when you claim that Sera's sexuality factors into her potential exit from the party.

Help me understand. Why is this a LGBT issue?

 

It's a matter of who they chose to be the same sex female love interest.  As I said upthread, I've been playing out Bioware romances since 2001, and what I see is this: pretty much every single game of theirs that has romances lets the male player character romance the "leading lady" character, usually whom is very relevant to the plot, who can't be completely ignored or rejected, and who is very likely to return in future games.   Only now, in DA:I, we get a female, same sex only love interest, and I think it's perfectly acceptable, after the long tradition of writing love interests for male characters who are integral to the story, to ask why Sera is so easy to remove completely, and was written to be comic relief when she's not antagonizing.

 

It's not so much a broad LGBT issue as an issue of wondering if Bioware doesn't think it's worth their time or the risk of backlash to "share" a love interest like Cassandra, who has been the marketing face of the game even before we saw the Inquisitor, with female player characters, so they gave those who asked for a female same sex love interest the character that is most likely to be discarded after one conversation.

[DaemionMoadrin]

It doesn't settle very well with some players that the first lesbian companion that BioWare has ever done, regardless of LI status, can be kicked out at any time in the game.  I honestly thought it was a bug at first, until some posters corrected that assumption.

 

Sera is -not- the first lesbian companion. That honor goes to Juhani of KotOR, who was the only lesbian romance option.

[syllogi]

Sera is -not- the first lesbian companion. That honor goes to Juhani of KotOR, who was the only lesbian romance option.

 

How is the blink and you'll miss it dialogue that points to affection on Juhani's part (which FemRevan can't actually reciprocate) an actual romance?

[Fandango]

Do I think BioWare treating one character different because of her sexuality? No, not me personally. I did state a sentiment I saw in the forums, but it is not one I share.

The only "uniformity" I'm asking for is to be able to kick other party members too. Plenty of folks could rightly consider Blackwall, Cole, the Iron Bull, and Vivienne as being:

Too deceitful
Too potentially dangerous
Too risky since he's a spy for a huge enemy of Thedas.
Too power hungry.

The only excuse I'd heard about Sera was, "Well, she's a Jenny." Which is pathetic, considering who/what we travel with in this game.

Ok, I'm relieved to learn that you don't take BioWare's treatment of Sera to be a thinly-veiled jab at those who share her sexual orientation.

As for the rest of your post, I would say that Dragon Age has always done a wonderful job of providing player agency. I mean, consider the influence the player has had across all three games. Just take a moment to remember the things our protagonists have been able to do to Fenris, Isabella, Leliana, Blackwell, Anders and the rest before asking again whether it is in any way reasonable to focus on and complain about the treatment of Sera so.

The answer seems obvious enough to me. YMMV.