476 réponses à ce sujet

[Efvie]

I don't argue, but this unfortunately ties back into the fallout regarding Anders.  If they opened back up the idea of companions hitting on the player first, they would probably do it with the gay male characters as well as the female characters.  Which I fully support.    After all, how would the characters know if you were straight or not?  Heck, I agree with you and so does David Gaider for that matter.  That was what was going through his mind when he wrote that Anders would hit on the player first.  He also thought it was a little silly to keep having the player make the first moves.

 

Actually, all it would really take is a Gameplay option to allow characters to make romantic overtures, defaulted to off. That, plus an extra line or two of dialogue for some characters.

 

Games have unlimited potential. It just needs to be harnessed.

[Elsariel]

What I would really like to see is a more realistic romance. Or well, believeable in this case. For example, why do I have to do the first step all the time? Why do I have to gather gifts and seduce my lover? Why can't the strong female in the group walk up to me and say "You. Me. My room. Now." ... just with more romantic words I guess.

 

As much as I would LOVE this in games, I know that there are quite a few people who don't care for romance in Dragon Age and wouldn't appreciate having to deal with it being sprung on them.  I remember waaay back when people were upset that Leliana "ninja romanced" them out of nowhere.  My guess is that they're trying to prevent that kind of outcry again.

[King Dragonlord]

DA2 had all potential LIs swing both ways, and tbh that seemed kind of stupid. Pandering to the player like that undermines characterization. A fleshed out character has to have defined traits that you just have to accept and deal with - just like a real person would. And sexuality happens to be a rather important trait in a game with prominent romance aspects.

 

edit: Scoff at the desire for "realism" all you like, but in a game with strong character focus, realistic characterization matters. It's what helps people suspend disbelief and treat (and feel about!) a digital manequin like an actual person.

 

 

Isabela- Flighty, flirty oversexed woman who lives for thrills, loves the ocean and sailing and loves getting down and dirty where its raw and real. Lives by the seat of her pants. Doesn't like being tied down but has a little too much conscience and compassion in her to be completely unfettered. 

 

Aveline - Strong morals, has trouble dealing with her emotions, particularly when it comes to love, but is flexible and reasonable when it comes to enforcement. She places doing the right thing over doing the legal thing but values both highly. Long suffering. 

 

Fenris- Angry brooding guy who can't move past his hate long enough to start thinking about how he might make a life for himself. 

 

Varric - Sly rogue with a gifted tongue. Likes to operate behind the scenes so he can do the backroom dealing and write the cool stories about other people's deeds. Tends to embellish.

 

Merrill - Kind gentle immature woman who is has a pride born of her innocence. Curious about everything to a fault. 

 

Carver - Impulsive young man with a chip on his shoulder, eager to prove himself. 

 

 

 

I could keep going. I'm not even that good at describing things but Dragon Age 2 didn't suffer from lack of characterization. It has some of the strongest and most distinct characters of the series even though all the LIs were bi. The most boring character of the bunch was DLC romanceable Sebastian and he was the only gender locked option. 

 

Did Morrigan being straight in the first game make her more interesting? Did Zevran being bi make him less? 

 

To put so high a value on sexuality is to have a very limited and base outlook on life. People are far more than their sexual urges. So why not let the players have what they want?

[phantomrachie]

Is this a good place to say how gutted I was by Cassandra's rejection? I knew she wasn't available to femQuiz, but I couldn't help taking those lovely flirt options anyway. Figured they'd just disappear after a while and she'd go through life blithely unaware of my pining, much like Aveline. And yet she kept giving me approval for flirting, and we were friends, and then she actually confronted me about it and I almost died of humiliation and hurt when she was listing her reasons for rejection: "you are the Herald of Andraste, and my leader... and a woman." (Found a video of the scene here)

 

Just... ouch. I don't necessarily mind gating in theory, but that one seemed deliberately misleading and hurtful. If I hadn't explicitly known beforehand that she was straight, I would have really thought I had a shot up till that point. I know not everyone is especially up-front and obvious about their sexuality, but it's a game, and I don't see the purpose in waiting until that cutscene to inform the player about Cassandra's preferences. It really did feel like a sucker punch to women who thought, based on game feedback, that Cass might actually return their interest.

 

 

I would actually use Cass's rejection as a reason to have companions with a set sexuality.

 

I thought it was great, heart breaking but great.

 

I love how nervous she was when referencing it, I love how she still wanted to be my friend afterwards. It added to her character. I also like all the other rejections in the game, it shows that the characters have preferences and that their sexuality is not just a tick the box exercise.

[Taura-Tierno]

Isabela- Flighty, flirty oversexed woman who lives for thrills, loves the ocean and sailing and loves getting down and dirty where its raw and real. Lives by the seat of her pants. Doesn't like being tied down but has a little too much conscience and compassion in her to be completely unfettered. 

 

Aveline - Strong morals, has trouble dealing with her emotions, particularly when it comes to love, but is flexible and reasonable when it comes to enforcement. She places doing the right thing over doing the legal thing but values both highly. Long suffering. 

 

Fenris- Angry brooding guy who can't move past his hate long enough to start thinking about how he might make a life for himself. 

 

Varric - Sly rogue with a gifted tongue. Likes to operate behind the scenes so he can do the backroom dealing and write the cool stories about other people's deeds. Tends to embellish.

 

Merrill - Kind gentle immature woman who is has a pride born of her innocence. Curious about everything to a fault. 

 

Carver - Impulsive young man with a chip on his shoulder, eager to prove himself. 

 

 

 

I could keep going. I'm not even that good at describing things but Dragon Age 2 didn't suffer from lack of characterization. It has some of the strongest and most distinct characters of the series even though all the LIs were bi. The most boring character of the bunch was DLC romanceable Sebastian and he was the only gender locked option. 

 

Did Morrigan being straight in the first game make her more interesting? Did Zevran being bi make him less? 

 

To put so high a value on sexuality is to have a very limited and base outlook on life. People are far more than their sexual urges. So why not let the players have what they want?

I think the most important thing is to create good characters. If you end up with a set of romanceable characters where it fits to have all of them bi, I think that's great. If some of the characters would end up fitting better as being gender-locked (or race-locked) I think that's fine as well. As long as the characters are good, and there's variety in the LIs (e.g. that there are options for both opposite and same-sex romances, etc). 

I agree that DA2 had some of the best characters Bioware has made.

[DaemionMoadrin]

I don't argue, but this unfortunately ties back into the fallout regarding Anders.  If they opened back up the idea of companions hitting on the player first, they would probably do it with the gay male characters as well as the female characters.  Which I fully support.    After all, how would the characters know if you were straight or not?  Heck, I agree with you and so does David Gaider for that matter.  That was what was going through his mind when he wrote that Anders would hit on the player first.  He also thought it was a little silly to keep having the player make the first moves.

 

While there were folks that were really upset by the rivalry hit (meh,) and those that thought male Hawke came off sounding too much like a jerk (can't argue too much there,) there was sadlyenough protest against the idea of a male character ever hitting on the male PC that Gaider said at the GDC panel in 2013 that he isn't going to have the companion make the first move in the foreseeable future.

 

As I mentioned earlier, I can't see BioWare doing this again until maybe DA5.

 

As for your second ideas about the people of Skyhold, that would be a Word Budget killer.  The writers only have X amount of words that they can have for the entire story.  A small portion of that is dedicated to romances.  A lot of this comes down to how much needs to be animated and voiced and then tested.  This was the reasons Gaider as well as Patrick Weekes gave for not having a polyamorous relationship among characters.   They tried, but it exceeded the word budget and then some.

 

As to your third, I feel like I've gotten that one already, but YMMV.  Could you elaborate further?

 

I had no problem whatsoever with Anders being flirty, how could he have known? I just wish that there had been an option to let him down more gently. Personally I do not see an issue with gay characters making their interest in me known.

 

Well, word budget is a good argument but I wonder how that budget would change if they were given more time to finish their games properly. BioWare tried to copy Skyrim, why not copy that part as well?

 

Well, despite all that is being said, in the end your companions are still somewhat player-sexual. For example, Cassandra is straight so as long as I am male and win her approval on mostly political subjects, she'll fall in love with me and sleep with me. If it was that easy in RL, then I'd never be single again.

I would like to have a companion whose "type" I am but who just isn't attracted to me. For example, how about a Dorian who just wants to be friends? Or a Josephine who thinks I'm wonderful but doesn't love me? You know, like how you can be friends with a "sexually compatible" man or woman in RL? Sometimes there just isn't any attraction there. No chemistry.

I am not sure how one could implement this, perhaps a start would be to define your sexuality during character creation?

 

I think that would give them a bit more depth. I always felt it was a bit weird to be given options. "Do I seduce A or B? C is really cute, too." Meh. I'd prefer if they had lives on their own, without depending on me and my desires. Tali and Garrus hooking up was brilliant, they are a much better match than either one of them and my Shepard. The only flaw there was that the game waited until you made it clear that neither one of them was an option to you any longer.

Imagine them having a drunken one-night stand in ME1 and then listen to their banter during ME2 before they become a loving couple in ME3. Wouldn't that be great? I mean, except for the people who wanted an adorable quarian in their bed. I still have no idea how kissing Garrus would work btw. He doesn't have lips.

Watching and helping Aveline to get her happy end with Donnic was so much fun, I'd like to see stuff like that more often.

 

You could go even further. Perhaps the person you fell in love with is flirting with someone else. Or is already in a relationship. Now you have the option to try to win them over and possibly upsetting your friends or to wish them happiness and watch over them. Perhaps they do break up later, who knows?

 

Yes, I am aware that these things are next to impossible to implement. I can still dream though.

[Tayah]

Chiming in late because I just found the topic but oh well, here goes.

I *do* like the idea of having a sweet, uncomplicated, "traditional" romance, with a female character, but the way it's implemented, yeah, I wish they could have done *something* to show that Josephine likes women.  Even once the romance has started, I've been trying to find out if there's any dialogue that shows how her family feels about her romancing a woman...I mean, it doesn't have to be disapproval, maybe they're accepting, that would be nice to show too.  Does the man dueling the Inquisitor for Josephine's hand react differently if it's a female character?  That seems like an obvious place to put different dialogue based on gender.

 

As far as I know there is no difference with the duel. I'm conflicted about that.

 

On the one hand, I love that I got to be all romantic & dashing which may not have happened if the romance was different for female Inquisitors. On the other hand, it would be nice if there were some differences.

 

I mean Joesphine is the head of her family, I at the very least expected a conversation about who would carry on her family name if she didn't have children. I know she has siblings, but the oldest having kids can be important in lines of succession so I'd liked a reference to that.

The problem with the duel for me is that in a f/f romance in Thedas it doesn't work because the lore states that marriage is supposed to be about inheritance and heirs so there's absolutely no reason for Otranto to duel a woman for Josephine. In another post Phantom mentioned the possibility of Josephine being expected to marry and produce heirs and I think from a lore perspective she would have been expected to marry Otranto, have at least one child/heir and just have the female inquisitor as her lover (probably discreetly) because that's how the lore is set up, I would imagine Otranto would have been fine with it because inquisition resources and connections would have benefited him sooner or later and her family would have felt like they get the heir and the influence of Otranto and the inquisition so everyone else seems like that's what they'd expect and I'd have hated it because I wouldn't want to share my love with anyone. And that leads me to this:

 

Really seemed to me that Josephine's romance was centered around being a male human PC, felt strange to me that someone so obsessed with making her family respectable in Orlais again happily told my female mage elf she loved her & then made out with her publicly in the countries capital even tho it would be seen as a scandal as a human noble/elf relationship

I agree and while I could be wrong I almost feel as though her romance was written before the addition of races and originally as a straight romance rather than bi which would explain the lack of reaction to both race and gender impacting or even getting a discussion in her romance. Romancing her as a female I had the jarring impression as soon as the betrothal occured that she wasn't really a f/f romance and that without races a human male noble might have been able to propose marriage which makes the romance very much the Disney princess style I've seen it described as elsewhere. 

 

The annoying thing is up until the duel I really liked the romance and regardless of the duel I actually really like the character it's just that the f/f romance feels like an afterthought in her case. And she makes out happily with my 'oxman' female qunari in the middle of the plaza where even public displays of affection (pda) are frowned on in straight human relationships... that's why they have special walkways and even there you're not supposed to be too affectionate.   Oh the scandal!

[jlb524]

I can't say I'm interested in trying Josephine's romance.

I did YouTube it and I can say the fireplace scene is nice but the rest of it is not my cup of tea.

[MrSnoozer]

What I would really like to see is a more realistic romance. Or well, believeable in this case. For example, why do I have to do the first step all the time? Why do I have to gather gifts and seduce my lover? Why can't the strong female in the group walk up to me and say "You. Me. My room. Now." ... just with more romantic words I guess.

 

Why are we even limiting it to our companions (and a token female)? If this was truly an open world, then I could perhaps find someone among the hundreds of people in Skyhold. What about Fiona? Lysette? Perhaps the librarian? The lonely guard down in the dungeons who has to watch permanently empty cells because of a bug? There are also countless nobles visiting and I can go to Val Royeaux anytime I want.

 

Wouldn't it feel more real if you just aren't into your companions or they just liked you as a friend?

 

ME want SNU SNU!!!

[Sarah223]

Wait!! you CAN atleast  FLIRT with Cassandra as female human or elf.. but not romance her.

 

Also, you can flirt with Dorian as female. There are flirt Options!

 

I would love to have the DA2 romance Options back (no race striction)...

[MrSnoozer]

Imagine romancing Dorian/Sera.

 

Do personnal Quest , where you get to talk about it

 

Female Inq : Was/is it because of me? When did you know ?

 

Dorian : Ive always Been Gay

 

Now the player is wondering why is he Gay when we've been bumping uglies , It just doesn't fit the story.

 

People want realism in games but when it comes to LI oh boy you better make sure they are receptive to everything and anything. You can be a spawn of Cthulhu and Dorian had better ****** LOVE ME!!!!

[Grieving Natashina]

Imagine romancing Dorian/Sera.

 

Do personnal Quest , where you get to talk about it

 

Female Inq : Was/is it because of me? When did you know ?

 

Dorian : Ive always Been Gay

 

Now the player is wondering why is he Gay when we've been bumping uglies , It just doesn't fit the story.

 

People want realism in games but when it comes to LI oh boy you better make sure they are receptive to everything and anything. You can be a spawn of Cthulhu and Dorian had better ****** LOVE ME!!!!

 

 

 

Okay, I've read this post three times now and I still can't make sense of it.  Is someone willing to translate this for me?

[dreamgazer]

Like I said another topic why isn't it possible just to fall in love whatever the gender is ?
I saw stories of straigh people becoming bxisesual because they fell in love or because they wanted to experiment new things.
 
It's in human nature to be able to change/adapt, don't talk about being unrealistic if you deny that fact.

Fact: people have preferences, and "human nature" isn't going to change that for every single person.

I'm glad they brought back gender restrictions. Good on BioWare.

[MrSnoozer]

Okay, I've read this post three times now and I still can't make sense of it.  Is someone willing to translate this for me?

Bumping uglies = sex

 

And the point was how does it fit the narrative that Dorian or sera prefer lovers of the same sex when they can be romanced by the opposite and have sex? How does it fit the narrative that they are gay/lesbian if they can and choose to have sex with anyone?

[Grieving Natashina]

I know what bumping uglies is. _{Thanks to my dad, for teaching me that expression.} 

 

So, from what I gather you're saying, is that it doesn't make sense to Sera or Dorian fall for the Inquisitor if they are acting like a tyrant?  Kinda like how it's weird that a blood mage Hawke can be together with Fenris, and that is still hunky-dory?

 

 I don't argue if that's the case, but I want to make sure that I'm not misunderstanding you here.  

[MrSnoozer]

Im not interested in realism in my games, any of them, i play games to escape all that 

 

It would be, probably, to late now to say "ok switch your all PS" given how some of the companions are written, but if they had just kept the model that they had in DA2, well the writing wouldnt have been as obvious.

 

Forcing ppl into a gender to experience a romance is one of the better things they got rid of in DA2

I can agree with you on the 'forcing gender experience' but the other side of me says : Good stories characters tend to have traits , in this case being Homosexual or straight. Its just part of the story.

[MrSnoozer]

I know what bumping uglies is. _{Thanks to my dad, for teaching me that expression.} 

 

So, from what I gather you're saying, is that it doesn't make sense to Sera or Dorian fall for the Inquisitor if they are acting like a tyrant?  Kinda like how it's weird that a blood mage Hawke can be together with Fenris, and that is still hunky-dory?

 

 I don't argue if that's the case, but I want to make sure that I'm not misunderstanding you here.  

 

Tyrant? No i meant it doesn't make sense for them to be with the Inq of the opposite sex , it would be ok if part of the story of them being non straight was not invovled but it plays a major part.

 

I Just don't see how it would fit story wise. They wanted to insert a gay character in the world so that it felt normal (until a certain quest where you are made to feel uncomfortable for asking) so being Gay means they need to stick with it throughout the game or the point of 'Being Gay is normal in Thedas' is lost.

[King Dragonlord]

Imagine romancing Dorian/Sera.
 
Do personnal Quest , where you get to talk about it
 
Female Inq : Was/is it because of me? When did you know ?
 
Dorian : Ive always Been Gay
 
Now the player is wondering why is he Gay when we've been bumping uglies , It just doesn't fit the story.
 
People want realism in games but when it comes to LI oh boy you better make sure they are receptive to everything and anything. You can be a spawn of Cthulhu and Dorian had better ****** LOVE ME!!!!

 
I don't want realism. I want fantasy. This is a fantasy rpg is it not? When you start trying to drag real world stuff or allegory into a game, that takes me out of the experience and reminds me "oh yeah. This is a game written by writers and they have Things To Say^TM" 

 

This series has had much more interesting stuff going on than "my family doesn't like that I'm gay." 

 

Besides, its not like its in any way at all vital to the experience. I haven't even run Dorian's side quest* and I've played through this game twice. (saw it on YouTube eventually). And Dorian is the strongest case for it. If he doesn't hold up, none of them do.

 

*Not singling him out. I haven't done any of Vivienne's or Sera's stuff either. And YouTube has confirmed that I wasn't missing anything. 

[MrSnoozer]

 
I don't want realism. I want fantasy. This is a fantasy rpg is it not? When you start trying to drag real world stuff or allegory into a game, that takes me out of the experience and reminds me "oh yeah. This is a game written by writers and they have Things To Say^TM" 

 

This series has had much more interesting stuff going on than "my family doesn't like that I'm gay." 

 

Besides, its not like its in any way at all vital to the experience. I haven't even run Dorian's side quest* and I've played through this game twice. (saw it on YouTube eventually). And Dorian is the strongest case for it. If he doesn't hold up, none of them do.

 

*Not singling him out. I haven't done any of Vivienne's or Sera's stuff either. And YouTube has confirmed that I wasn't missing anything. 

And i agree , i dislike certain aspects of the game being too realistic. I like big fancy shiny armour for example...

 

But its not like when you start the game you go 'Ok so i'l have Dorian as straight/Bi this time by ticking a box. Dorians sexuality is set in stone for everyone.

 

My point isn't that i don't think you shouldn't be allowed to romance everyone , my point is they tried to fit a character for gay people to relate to (note the word tried because not every gay person is similar or has the same tastes) its like those T-shirts celebreties wear 'I'm gay get over it' or something similar. They tried to implement something like that in my opinion. Am i 100% happy that Dorian is gated like that? no but i can understand why they did it

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

I'm personally relieved that BioWare has chosen to go forward with more complete, and representative characters. I think that's more important than catering to the audience that seeks personalized romance options.

[Grieving Natashina]

I never got a "I'm gay, get over it" vibe from Dorian.  I did do his personal quest, but you know what?  He doesn't talk about being attracted to men prior to that unless you flirt with him.  Even then, he'll playfully flirt back in a friendly manner and then politely tell the lady Inquisitor that she isn't his type and why.  He's actually really respectful about it.

 

And the Dragon Age team didn't just add non-hetero characters to check off some sort of "inclusion" box.   Although please, do tell them what you just told us.  Politely contact them on twitter, with a PM or with an email and let them know that you think they added Dorian and Sera for that purpose alone.

 

And post the reaction, should they decide to give you one.  

[Sartoz]

I don't see the problem with the restriction(s).

 

I'm hetero. I romance the ladies, either with a male avatar or female one. My preference is rolling a female avatar 'cause I prefer watching a female butt while exploring, than a male's. 

 

Sadly, this game hides everything....

 

 

[Br3admax]

 
I don't want realism. I want fantasy. This is a fantasy rpg is it not? When you start trying to drag real world stuff or allegory into a game, that takes me out of the experience and reminds me "oh yeah. This is a game written by writers and they have Things To Say^TM" 

Because like most fantasy rpgs, this one magically appeared out of thin air to cater to my...I mean our, universal preferences. It's not about what the writer had to say; it's about what I want to hear. 

[MrSnoozer]

I never got a "I'm gay, get over it" vibe from Dorian.  I did do his personal quest, but you know what?  He doesn't talk about being attracted to men prior to that unless you flirt with him.  Even then, he'll playfully flirt back and then politely tell the lady Inquisitor that she isn't his type.  He's actually really respectful about it.

 

And the Dragon Age team didn't do add non-hetero characters to check off some sort of "inclusion" box.   Although please, do tell them what you just told us.  Politely contact them on twitter, with a PM or with an email and let them know that you think they added Dorian and Sera for that purpose alone.

 

And post the reaction, should they decide to give you one.  

By ticking the box i meant , how you affect the game by changing settings sort of thing

 

Also this seems to be the problem with the internet and misunderstandings. 'the gay get over it' part is just that they wanted people to know it was a design choice. i.e they made a gay character its fine he acts like anyone else , there is nothing different to having him in the party. If they didn't promote it to the high heavens i'd never know he was gay until the quest.