107 réponses à ce sujet

[Poledo]

I'm a little surprised people are diving so deep into the "Justinia in the Fade" mystery. I never wondered what she was, and once I was out of the Fade, I just forgot about her. If anything, I'd say she was merely a spirit; Justinia's spirit who got stuck in the Fade. I believe someone in the game explained how some people, when they die, they linger in the Fade for one reason or another. I agree with this person.

 

I 1000% don't believe it is Andraste. Why the flippin hell would Andraste be in the damn Fade. She should be at the side of the Maker, wherever he is.

 

Which is exactly why it would be Andraste - what people believe, Bioware likes to turn on it's head and say "See it's not what you thought! Hah!".

 

I think they actually have no real future set in stone - they are reading commonly accepted theories and how people interpret the game events and are going to make it the exact opposite of that.

[songsmith2003]

Silly people. The figure at the beginning (and possibly during the nightmare) was a shape-changed Flemeth! You know she's always involved. Always. /nods sagely

[John32692]

I simply believe it was a spirit of faith. Divine Justinia, as head of the chantry is supposed to be a symbol of Faith to all of Thaedas. Through dialogue, the 'spirit' constantly makes hints about Faith. Leliana refers to Justinia as the Makers most faithful. Easily explaining How she was able to disable the Nightmare.

[Serelir]

I'm a little confused about Justinia and the timeline. In Asunder, it's implied that she was very young for a Divine, or at least much younger than the prior Divine. But in the Fade in DAI, she (or the spirit mimicking her) is depicted as very old:

Spoiler

 

 

and in DA2, which was only seven years before:

 

Spoiler

[9TailsFox]

I'm a little confused about Justinia and the timeline. In Asunder, it's implied that she was very young for a Divine, or at least much younger than the prior Divine. But in the Fade in DAI, she (or the spirit mimicking her) is depicted as very old:

Spoiler

 

 

and in DA2, which was only seven years before:

 

Spoiler

Red lyrium maybe. Looks same as Leliana after just one year. Or simple like all timeline and number problems. Bioware don't know how to count.

Spoiler

[Rinshikai10]

Could also be stress and self neglect. I can't imagine Justinia sleeping, or eating well after everything that has happened.  

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Retcon.

[Ariella]

I'm a little confused about Justinia and the timeline. In Asunder, it's implied that she was very young for a Divine, or at least much younger than the prior Divine. But in the Fade in DAI, she (or the spirit mimicking her) is depicted as very old

 

 

I don't remember her showing up except in DAO Leliana's song, which is 11 years prior to DAI.

 

But take a look at a picture of the past several recent American Presidents. All of them aged while in office. There's an interiew Clinton did with Rodger Ebert just before he left office. It was about favorite films or something as I recall, but he looked like he aged 20 years. It's pretty much the same for all of them. The weight of the office, and I can't expect beig Divine is easier.

 

Also I've noticed they haven't quite got wrinkles down in general. Flemeth was rather... bumpy.

[Serelir]

I don't remember her showing up except in DAO Leliana's song, which is 11 years prior to DAI.

 

But take a look at a picture of the past several recent American Presidents. All of them aged while in office. There's an interiew Clinton did with Rodger Ebert just before he left office. It was about favorite films or something as I recall, but he looked like he aged 20 years. It's pretty much the same for all of them. The weight of the office, and I can't expect beig Divine is easier.

 

Also I've noticed they haven't quite got wrinkles down in general. Flemeth was rather... bumpy.

She changed her name from Dorothea to Justinia when she became Divine (which is why I didn't remember her either). I'd love for her premature aging to be plot-related, but I have a feeling it's simply because people are used to pope-like figures being elderly - maybe it makes her a more sympathetic figure? 

 

You're spot on about the complexions though - I felt like character creator had very little between youthful freshness and agèd gnarl. Then again, people are always getting blasted with fire and lightning in Thedas, not to mention sand.

[Gold Dragon]

I don't remember her showing up except in DAO Leliana's song, which is 11 years prior to DAI.

 

 

Try about 15 years before.  Adaia is also in Leliana's Song, And Referenced in City Elf Origins as having been dead a few years.

 

Also, Leliana herself mentions having spent a few years in Lothering's Chantry, and even backed up by Marjorlaine.

[andy6915]

Silly people. The figure at the beginning (and possibly during the nightmare) was a shape-changed Flemeth! You know she's always involved. Always. /nods sagely

 

I simply believe it was a spirit of faith. Divine Justinia, as head of the chantry is supposed to be a symbol of Faith to all of Thaedas. Through dialogue, the 'spirit' constantly makes hints about Faith. Leliana refers to Justinia as the Makers most faithful. Easily explaining How she was able to disable the Nightmare.

 

Both of these sound plausible to me.

[Rocknife]

There are some details that attracted my attention while playing.

 

1) why Corypheus needed to sacrifice the Divine to become a God and not another person?

2) There's Leliana's relationship with Justinia and the way Justinia saved Leliana by sending her subordinates.

3) When Inquisitor asks why Leliana cannot join to his party, Leliana says if she leaves her post she'd be "bound and blinded" without her spies.

4) Leliana heard voices and saw visions that once told her to follow the Warden.

 

Needs more explaining? Here;

 

1) I think Justinia was carrying Andruil (The Elven Goddess of Sacrifice and Hunting) in her just as Flemeth carried Mythal in her. In Elven Legends it is said Ghilan'nain the God of Halla (later we find out she was actually god of all animals) was once a mortal woman. She rose to Godhood after making sacrifices to Andruil and to the other Gods with the help of Andruil so other Gods did not object either. Sacrifice, Andruil and becoming a God.

 

2-3) It is said, Ghilan'nain was once captured by a hunter but Ghilan'nain cursed hunter so he couldn't kill/hunt anything anyomre in order to save herself. After trying and failing to kill Ghilan'nain or any of the animals, hunter got angry and "bound and blinded" Ghilan'nain and left her to die. Ghilan'nain cried for help and Andruil sent her hares and they chewed through the ropes that bound her, but Ghilan'nain was still wounded and blind, and could not find her way home. So Andruil turned her into a halla (the symbol of purity). In DAO: Leliana's Song, Leliana was captured and put in a dark prison after being betrayed by Marjolaine. Divine Justinia sends her the cloistered sisters to get her out of that prison but Leliana was still a rogue, an assassin so she was "blind". Justinia told her about the chantry and the maker and turned her into a cloistered sister. So, she sacrificed all other abilities and talents (rogue, bard, assassin abilities like killing, seducing, lying) of her other than her purity, just like Ghilan'nain sacrificed all other animals other than Halla to become a God.

 

Another interesting detail; Andruil and Ghilan'nain were said to be "close". Justinia and Leliana are said to be "close" as well. When Inquisitor asks Leliana if they were close in a romantic way, she says something like "people always think of it when they hear two people are close, we were more than friends in another way,"

 

4) The voices Leliana heard and the visions she saw probably came from Ghilan'nain. We know that souls of gods and spirits/demons that people carry can whisper to them and show them visions.

 

 

So what we saw in the Fade might be the soul of Andruil, mimicking her last vessel. That would explain why Corypheus wanted to "sacrifice" the Divine to unlock the Orb and become a God. Even Fenharel couldn't unlock the Orb since he was recently awakened, I don't think just a spirit of faith could, in any way, unlock it.

[TheKomandorShepard]

There are some details that attracted my attention while playing.

 

1) why Corypheus needed to sacrifice the Divine to become a God and not another person?

 

Because of his foolish pride?

 

It is nowhere said Corypheus needed to sacrafice the divine.

 

Corypheus wasn't good at doing sensible things ,like for example not creating something that can turn off your immortality.

[Rocknife]

Mhm, just for his foolish pride and nothing else? Why not killing in public rather than sacrificing then? It is obvious that Corypheus is not half as smart as the Architect but he's not ignorant. He's a magister.

 

And he clearly says "keep the sacrifice still" and points the orb at her, see the video below. He intended to use Divine Justinia as a sacrifice to unlock the Orb's power. He probably knew that the Divine carried Andruil within her and intended to use her power to unlock the Orb or to open a huge rift.

 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Mhm, just for his foolish pride and nothing else? Why not killing in public rather than sacrificing then? It is obvious that Corypheus is not half as smart as the Architect but he's not ignorant. He's a magister.

 

And he clearly says "keep the sacrifice still" and points the orb at her, see the video below. He intended to use Divine Justinia as a sacrifice to unlock the Orb's power. He probably knew that the Divine carried Andruil within her and intended to use her power to unlock the Orb.

 

He could just kill her or he could kill her sacrificing her achieving 2 in 1 move.

As for architect being smart it is debatable because he never did anything exceptionally clever in fact he did a lot of dumb things.

 

Corypheus already proved he is capable doing rather dumb things because of his pride like creating dragon on the image of old gods.

 

In fact there is nothing that supports she was Anduril as well you could have claim she was maker or old god.I doubt corypheus knew about elven gods and especially who is one if he knew he could pretty much do it with solas.

[Rocknife]

*Andruil. And I never claimed her to be the maker, I just think that thing we see in Fade could be Andruil. Solas was the one who gave the orb to Corypheus and I explained why he may have chosen the divine and Andruil above, in another post. And if you look at the numer 2-3-4 I wrote in the previous posts, you'll see that there are many things that supports this theory.

 

As for Architect being smart or not, I'm sure you have not read DA: The Calling.

[TheKomandorShepard]

*Andruil. And I never claimed her to be the maker, I just think that thing we see in Fade could be Andruil. Solas was the one who gave the orb to Corypheus and I explained why he may have chosen the divine and Andruil above, in another post. And if you look at the numer 2-3-4 I wrote in the previous posts, you'll see that there are many things that supports this theory.

 

As for Architect being smart or not, I'm sure you have not read DA: The Calling.

Where i said you have claimed she was the maker? What i said as well you could have claim she was the maker or old god.

 

As for points 2-3-4 those are not things that support it ,and far far from evidence and it ,pretty much those are just claims that bob likes pancakes and storms and zeus liked them to so that means bob is zeus.

 

As for point 4 or you could say it was the maker because he is a god thus can send visions as vailid argument as yours.

 

Not rly and kinda ,as i never finished it because book wasn't mine , but i don't recall him being very smart there either.  

 

LoL bioware did poor job with those "gods" thing as pretty much you can see fans claming that every character is a god using any comparison they can get to "support" it.

[Onmens]

Maybe not quite on topic, but she's obviously a Qunari. I mean, why else the hat, if not to hide the horns?

 

Also, it's Sandal.

 

Also also, why is the Inquisitor wearing his current equipment in the memories?

[Rinshikai10]

@Rocknife

 

The idea of Justinia being Andruil or the spirit in the fade being Andruil is possible.However, I'm still skeptical on the whole elven god thing though. I personally believe that the reason Cory tried to sacrifice Justinia was because it was symbolic. As Leliana said "If the Maker doesn't intervene to save the best of us. Then what good is he." Its my understanding that the Divine is believed to be the Makers chosen, and thus under his protection. (I could very likely be wrong about this) When she died at the conclave it was a symbolic meaning that the maker would not intervene even for his most faithful followers.That is a blow to the morale of people who followed her.

[Balek-Vriege]

@Rocknife

 

The idea of Justinia being Andruil or the spirit in the fade being Andruil is possible.However, I'm still skeptical on the whole elven god thing though. I personally believe that the reason Cory tried to sacrifice Justinia was because it was symbolic. As Leliana said "If the Maker doesn't intervene to save the best of us. Then what good is he." Its my understanding that the Divine is believed to be the Makers chosen, and thus under his protection. (I could very likely be wrong about this) When she died at the conclave it was a symbolic meaning that the maker would not intervene even for his most faithful followers.That is a blow to the morale of people who followed her.

 

Sacrificing her at the Temple of Sacred Ashes during the Conclave and ascending to the Golden City from it, would show his divine superiority over Andraste and the Maker as well.

 

Or there could be something powerful about people of importance/renown due to their impact on the world, dreams and by extension the Fade.  I forget who says it (maybe the Fade Divine), but the actions of the Herald and the dreams of those that follow him/her are causing huge ripples in the Fade and are gaining the attention of many spirits.  Maybe the blood of such figures is stronger and more powerful for use in Blood Magic rituals.  Instead of needing a whole bunch of elven slaves like he did previously, Corypheus could sacrifice one person that's the head of a religion for the same effect while making a symbolic statement.

[Rinshikai10]

That's an interesting idea Balek-Vriege. I like it.

[Lulupab]

Well Cole says "it was her, whatever she was".

 

We all agree it wasn't Justinia herself, but the spirit took her exact personality. Its quite safe to claim if it was actually Justinia in the fade, she would do the the things the spirit did. 

[Rinshikai10]

@Lulupab

 

You have an interesting point. However, this is just my opinion but if we can say that the spirit was not Divine Justinia. How can we also say that it was her in the fade?

 

I believe that Leliana says it. (there are not answers in the fade, only illusions, a warped mirror.) While a mirrors reflection may look and do exactly what we would, it is still not us.

 

Just my opinion.

[Urazz]

Yeah, I'm thinking that was a spirit of faith that was drawn to Justinia and ended up absorbing part of her before she died much like Cole did with the real Cole.

[SwobyJ]

Yeah, I'm thinking that was a spirit of faith that was drawn to Justinia and ended up absorbing part of her before she died much like Cole did with the real Cole.

 

So far, I'm basically going with that.

 

Though I'd add that the supposedly permanent nature of Thedas-reality might not be as permanent as it seems. Effectively, if we expand our theoretical understanding of the Fade, this 'spirit' very well MAY be Justinia. Especially given that she apparently died IN the Fade. The imprint and the flux-nature of this realm of the Fade very well could have transferred Justinia (not just 'copied what she is') into a new vessel of transcendence. Maybe. We can't tell.

 

But in the end, yes, the Justinia in the Fade is not the 'real' (HUGE QUOTES) Justinia. But she can just as well be Justinia anyway, from a POV.