459 réponses à ce sujet

[Rekkampum]

Not exactly the best argument considering the USA and Russia nearly destroyed the world with nuclear holocaust during the Cuba crisis. That alliance was good back then, but look at what happened later.

It's simply a case of not trusting the Qunari at a long term. I for one don't deny the alliance for the sake of the Chargers alone. If the alliance was with an more honorable organization, I would contemplate it.

 

Not to mention they'd actually lost some of their missiles for a while during that fiasco.

[congokong]

Not exactly the best argument considering the USA and Russia nearly destroyed the world with nuclear holocaust during the Cuba crisis. That alliance was good back then, but look at what happened later.

It's simply a case of not trusting the Qunari at a long term. I for one don't deny the alliance for the sake of the Chargers alone. If the alliance was with an more honorable organization, I would contemplate it.

The Cuban Missile Crisis was not related to the Soviet alliance in WWII. Your argument that the Soviets became a threat, and thus the qunari might be, is additionally devalued by the fact that the US was bullying Cuba during that time. It would be naive to suggest the Soviets were "the bad guy" when that occurred. Hell, Kruschev took the political fall by agreeing to withdraw to prevent conflict while JFK was trumped as a hero.  /end history lesson

[Rekkampum]

The Cuban Missile Crisis was not related to the Soviet alliance in WWII. Your argument that the Soviets became a threat, and thus the qunari might be, is additionally devalued by the fact that the US was bullying Cuba during that time. It would be naive to suggest the Soviets were "the bad guy" when that occurred. Hell, Kruschev took the political fall by agreeing to withdraw to prevent conflict while JFK was trumped as a hero.  /end history lesson

 

The difference here though, is that we know for a fact that the Qunari will eventually invade and resume their crusade once the timing is right. It's inevitable.

[congokong]

The difference here though, is that we know for a fact that the Qunari will eventually invade and resume their crusade once the timing is right. It's inevitable.

We don't know that for a fact. Nothing is certain. Philosophically of course that's their end-game but many nations have had similar end-games that have never once come to pass. Rome was the closest. Therefore, shunning their help because of philosophical differences against a present threat is foolish. I'm sure many nations who align wouldn't object to conquering the other if they had the means to.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Why exactly should the Inquisitor be concerned if society, whether for the Vints or the Qunari, implode up north? The Inquisition's jurisdiction is down south, more fighting up north means less fighting down south.

Another point is, the Chargers are like the Inquisition's mvp commando team. They've won battle after battle and uncovered conspiracy after conspiracy for the Inquisition. In a chess analogy, it would be exchanging a queen piece for a hint on openings of the opponents pieces. That's great if the Inquisition can deliver a checkmate for the Venatori or vints but then you weaken your organization and are dependent on a foreign power for intelligence. It's like an opponent so consumed with checkmating one opponent that they leave themselves vulnerable to other opponents, whether that be the qunari or some other nefarious organization seeking to take down the Inquisition.

 

The longevity of the Inquisition will be put into question if it is dependent on unreliable alliances. The people who fight under your banner, who you can hold accountable, inspire, direct- they are the ones who win the Inquisition's wars and keep the organization stable;not foreign intelligence. If people die, then they die. The Inquisition should be accumulating power and influence to combat the threat, and the people will be avenged. A queen piece is better than pawns.

[Rekkampum]

We don't know that for a fact. Nothing is certain. Philosophically of course that's their end-game but many nations have had similar end-games that have never once come to pass. Rome was the closest. Therefore, shunning their help because of philosophical differences against a present threat is foolish. I'm sure many nations who align wouldn't object to conquering the other if they had the means to.

 

This isn't a philosophical debate. They've already tried before -hence the Exalted Marches against them - and even Sten alluded to an eventual invasion likely happening. I suspect the only reason they haven't yet is because they're in a war with Tevinter currently and having problems dealing with the Venatori. It's simply not in their best interest to attempt.

 

I happen to like the Qunari and admire the complexity of the Qun, although there are flaws like any system that can use reform. But this is a well-established aspect of their history and I suspect will be an unavoidable conflict in the future.

[Bad King]

Unfortunately, that environment doesn't program them to be "people" in the usual sense. They think more like an organism, a collective. The people are like cells and body parts. The organism as a whole is the Qun. They even label themselves as body and head and soul.

 

It's just the Borg, basically. Without the nanotech. It isn't some diverse mix of attitudes. 

 

They're still individuals, just ones who put aside a greater amount of their individuality in order to improve their society. Sten, the Arishok, Tallis, Iron Bull and Gatt are all clearly very different to each other yet they all share many core principles that push them to comply with a strict code of conduct, which nevertheless doesn't force them to completely abandon their individuality. The difference between qunari society and everyone else's societies is a difference of degree rather than kind.

[congokong]

This isn't a philosophical debate. They've already tried before -hence the Exalted Marches against them - and even Sten alluded to an eventual invasion likely happening. I suspect the only reason they haven't yet is because they're in a war with Tevinter currently and having problems dealing with the Venatori. It's simply not in their best interest to attempt.

 

I happen to like the Qunari and admire the complexity of the Qun, although there are flaws like any system that can use reform. But this is a well-established aspect of their history and I suspect will be an unavoidable conflict in the future.

This is a philosophical debate. You're arguing of the threat their philosophy poses to the extent that an alliance should be shunned because of it. It's the inevitability of their philosophy that you find intimidating. It's certainly not the wish of every qunari to invade. Ex: Iron Bull.  Some, like Sten, might relish in invading and firmly believe they will soon. That could be deluded pride though. Sten is clearly more devout than some with his arrogant "certainty" of the qun.

[Rekkampum]

This is a philosophical debate. You're arguing of the threat their philosophy poses to the extent that an alliance should be shunned because of it. It's the inevitability of their philosophy that you find intimidating. It's certainly not the wish of every qunari to invade. Ex: Iron Bull.  Some, like Sten, might relish in invading and firmly believe they will soon. That could be deluded pride though. Sten is clearly more devout than some with his arrogant "certainty" of the qun.

 

I'm not arguing about their philosophy. It's a fact that there were no less than three Exalted Marches against Qunari invaders in the Steel and Storm ages. THREE. Them attempting to invade again in light of that fact is practically guaranteed. Iron Bull violated many aspects of Qun life - heavy drinking, reckless sex, among other things - and practically lived as a Tal-Vashoth. The only difference in this case, being that he's more moderate than other Qunari and that his position as a Benn-Hassrath gives him more flexibility.

 

Also, Sten was sent as an envoy to investigate the Blight with his company; he wasn't just a random Qunari and obviously had a significant role; he also becomes the Arishok. I find it highly unlikely that he was speaking from pride when he talked about an eventual invasion.

[congokong]

I'm not arguing about their philosophy. It's a fact that there were no less than three Exalted Marches against Qunari invaders in the Steel and Storm ages. THREE. Them attempting to invade again in light of that fact is practically guaranteed. Iron Bull violated many aspects of Qun life - heavy drinking, reckless sex, among other things - and practically lived as a Tal-Vashoth. The only difference in this case, being that he's more moderate than other Qunari and that his position as a Benn-Hassrath gives him more flexibility.

 

Also, Sten was sent as an envoy to investigate the Blight with his company; he wasn't just a random Qunari and obviously had a significant role; he also becomes the Arishok. I find it highly unlikely that he was speaking from pride when he talked about an eventual invasion.

And what? You want to shun their help out of spite because of the "inevitability" of another invasion, even if their aid might be the difference between victory and defeat? Sure, meta-gaming you know Inky always wins but in real life military leaders don't have that luxury and almost always choose to align with a nation they may not like/see as a future threat for a common cause.

 

EDIT: I also don't believe Sten becoming Arishok is canon; especially in my case since he dies in that cage. It was done for story-telling purposes for the novel.

[Rekkampum]

And what? You want to shun their help out of spite because of the "inevitability" of another invasion, even if their aid might be the difference between victory and defeat? Sure, meta-gaming you know Inky always wins but in real life military leaders don't have that luxury and almost always choose to align with a nation they may not like/see as a future threat for a common cause.

 

Their aid, in light of all the other things I've already mentioned, is not decisive. One of the biggest obstacles in this situation - the Breach - has already been solved. Had it been so essential to the main conflict it would not have been a minor loyalty sidequest. Even story-wise, it's not presented as essential, although it is a first for the Qunari.

I like you use "spite" as though I'm refusing an alliance to stick it to them somehow. And please, let's not talk about military leaders making "tough choices", especially given my homeland's current status with said military leaders. But that's another discussion.

[congokong]

Their aid, in light of all the other things I've already mentioned, is not decisive. One of the biggest obstacles in this situation - the Breach - has already been solved. Had it been so essential to the main conflict it would not have been a minor loyalty sidequest. Even story-wise, it's not presented as essential, although it is a first for the Qunari.

I like you use "spite" as though I'm refusing an alliance to stick it to them somehow. And please, let's not talk about military leaders making "tough choices", especially given my homeland's current status with said military leaders. But that's another discussion.

Stopping Corypheus is still a major priority; one where failing could result in the world's destruction. The Ben-Hassrath's aid could very well be decisive in stopping him. Even ignoring that, choosing five mercenaries over hundreds of qunari (ignoring the potential Ben-Hassrath aid that would save further lives) just because they're qunari hardly seems moral. Is your argument statistically sound? How little do you value qunari lives? Is one Charger worth more than 1000 qunari? 10,000? How much do philosophical differences devalue someone?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

EDIT: I also don't believe Sten becoming Arishok is canon; especially in my case since he dies in that cage. It was done for story-telling purposes for the novel.

It's canon. The Iron Bull has a banter with Varric about it. 

[Rekkampum]

Stopping Corypheus is still a major priority; one where failing could result in the world's destruction. The Ben-Hassrath's aid could very well be decisive in stopping him. Even ignoring that, choosing five mercenaries over hundreds of qunari (ignoring the potential Ben-Hassrath aid that would save further lives) just because they're qunari hardly seems moral.

 

This has gotten circular. I've clearly pointed out that ending an alliance with the Qunari is based on more than ideological differences and a consideration of alternate resources numerous times, and you continue to focus on the Chargers as if that's the only thing I or anyone else is considering. As I said earlier; I've sacrificed them before; in other situations, I haven't. They aren't the only political power with influence in Thedas, and knowing what Corypheus is planning gives the Inquisition an avenue they would have regardless of whether they allied.

 

So yeah, more power to you for choosing what you did, and respect to those who didn't.

[congokong]

So yeah, more power to you for choosing what you did, and respect to those who didn't.

I can't respect a decision to shun an alliance that could save the world in addition to exchanging hundreds, if not thousands, of lives to save five hit-men. This isn't like me respecting someone for preferring to play a warrior while I prefer playing a mage.

[congokong]

It's canon. The Iron Bull has a banter with Varric about it. 

You know I heard that about the new Arishok not having horns yet I knew Sten died in my playthrough. You have considered the possibility that the same dialogue could reference Sten or merely another hornless qunari, yes?

[MisterJB]

Qunari are the enemy and a constant threat to every person in Thedas.
Só long as they are a threat, their lives are, by definition, worthless and the sinking of a dreadnought is cause for celebration.

[The Baconer]

How little do you value qunari lives?

 

My answer is probably too offensive to post.

[Rekkampum]

My answer is probably too offensive to post.

 

Not worse than the trolls who post in the Elven support threads, I'm sure.

[congokong]

Qunari are the enemy and a constant threat to every person in Thedas.
Só long as they are a threat, their livres are, by definition, worthless and the sinking of a dreadnought is cause for celebration.

I can see the reasoning and the reality of it in the real world and it's a sad truth of philosophical differences; largely resulting from place of birth. The same occurs with culture and religion.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You know I heard that about the new Arishok not having horns yet I knew Sten died in my playthrough. You have considered the possibility that the same dialogue could reference Sten or merely another hornless qunari, yes?

Yes, I have considered that. Drop the condescending tone please.

The Qunari they are referring to as the new Arishok is the character we know as Sten.

 

As for you being sure that he is dead, Bioware has retconned deaths in the past, like Leliana, Anders, etc. They did the same with Sten. It may not even be a retcon since we never see him die in that cage. 

[Jaison1986]

I can't respect a decision to shun an alliance that could save the world in addition to exchanging hundreds, if not thousands, of lives to save five hit-men. This isn't like me respecting someone for preferring to play a warrior while I prefer playing a mage.

 

Dude, you are the one being spiteful now. We don't shun them, as if "I hate the Qunari and hope they have an bad day". We reject an alliance that can result in an future betrayal that BTW is very likely considering their history. What exactly would you do if one day they backstab you and screw you over because you trusted them? Just say "whopsy!"?

[congokong]

Yes, I have considered that. Drop the condescending tone please.

The Qunari they are referring to as the new Arishok is the character we know as Sten.

 

As for you being sure that he is dead, Bioware has retconned deaths in the past, like Leliana, Anders, etc. 

There was no condescending tone intended. You imagined it from my wording.

 

Bioware may have retconned his death even after curiously asking me in the Keep of his fate. Or it might an example of them being lazy and having one dialogue option for both the Sten-is-alive and Sten-is-dead players. Note that they don't specifically mention his name, working with the Hero of Ferelden, etc.

[Rekkampum]

Yes, I have considered that. Drop the condescending tone please.

The Qunari they are referring to as the new Arishok is the character we know as Sten.

 

As for you being sure that he is dead, Bioware has retconned deaths in the past, like Leliana, Anders, etc. 

 

Yeah. Bioware has their own established canon for their franchises. In their canon, the Warden was a Dalish Elf who sacrificed their life and there was no DR done; Alistair also became king. And it's clear that Sten also survived in their canon as well.

[congokong]

Dude, you are the one being spiteful now. We don't shun them, as if "I hate the Qunari and hope they have an bad day". We reject an alliance that can result in an future betrayal that BTW is very likely considering their history. What exactly would you do if one day they backstab you and screw you over because you trusted them? Just say "whopsy!"?

That's not the definition of spite. The terms are they're aligning solely to work against Corypheus. They aren't making the south their new home and would obviously be under scrutiny.