Common goal, we can kill eachother later.
Okay, Mede.
Uh, the enemy's already at your borders as Mark of the Assassin makes VERY clear. You just decide whether you can use them or not.
It's nowhere near comparable. Willingly giving quarter to the enemy in my fortress is not the same as spies being in the south. There will always be spies.
I don't trust the qunari.
So Chargers it was.
I saved the Chargers because I succumbed to the emotional blackmail the game presented to me after the hanging around scene at the tavern.
I saved the alliance. The qunari are not my enemy. At least not yet.
In the mean time, I have a very real enemy I'm waging war with, a mutual enemy with the qunari, and they're offering me the full support of their naval power and intelligence network to help bring this enemy down.
As much as I love the Chargers, I can't justify picking them over that. They're soldiers, they knew the risks going in, and sometimes you have to make hard decisions.
So the chargers die, and Tallis and my agents stop a Venatori plot to burn Denerim to the ground. I'd call that a win.
Gah! "Now is precisely the time for ideals." I save the chargers, every time. What can I say, I am just too much of a softy.
Although wouldn't the "higher ideals" choice be to save all of the people on the dreadnaught?
Of course, they'll pull a Mass Effect and screw the people who took the hard 'save more people choice'. (My Paragons all chose "Concentrate on Sovereign," figuring the lives of all the troops in the attack ships were a bigger deal than three replaceable councillors. Of course, in ME2 they had to then make the Council's ship have more people on it than the others combined... Just wait for it to be revealed that the entire hill was dug out and full of Chargers and that the ship was piloted by a single qunari.)
Although wouldn't the "higher ideals" choice be to save all of the people on the dreadnaught?
Of course, they'll pull a Mass Effect and screw the people who took the hard 'save more people choice'. (My Paragons all chose "Concentrate on Sovereign," figuring the lives of all the troops in the attack ships were a bigger deal than three replaceable councillors. Of course, in ME2 they had to then make the Council's ship have more people on it than the others combined... Just wait for it to be revealed that the entire hill was dug out and full of Chargers and that the ship was piloted by a single qunari.)
To be fair, there is a lot of dialogue and even a few codex entries early on in the game about just how massive the Destiny Ascension is and how large it's crew is. There's also a lot about how it's guns are more numerous and powerful than any and all of those attack ships. Namely, from a tactical standpoint, I saved it because it had the biggest gun to maybe be able to dent Sovereign.
Also, am I the only one who actually sees the benefits of the Qun? We can harp about freedom but chances are we're not jobless shmucks living in the street. Those beggars and whatnot? I'm pretty sure many of them would sign on for the Qun since it gives them a stable job, three meals a day and, if Iron Bull is to be believed, free sex whenever they need it.
I acknowledge the Qun's failures - their treatment of Mages is abhorrent and taking kids away is disgusting - but they have their benefits as well. Freedom for all is good in theory, but in practice less than half succeed and those that don't are trampled underfoot. Solas even cows to it: How many servants go out to be authors? Almost none, but the world wouldn't oppose them....actually, yeah, they would since the rich, powerful and naturally talented would still be picked over the servant.
The failure of one society does justify embracing the failures of another society.
F**k the Qun. Nothing they offer is worth what the ask you to give up.
As someone has already mentioned, playing as a Vashoth mage, I would have a hard time seeing how that character would trust the intentions of the Qunari, so from that angle it was less a choice to save the Chargers than it was to not take any losses in the service of an alliance that's suspect to begin with.
And at a meta level, the exchange between Adaar and Bull that can follow it (the "You don't have to say Tal Vashoth like it's an insult" one) is one of my favourite bits of dialogue in the game, so I'd hate to have missed those lines.
As someone has already mentioned, playing as a Vashoth mage, I would have a hard time seeing how that character would trust the intentions of the Qunari, so from that angle it was less a choice to save the Chargers than it was to not take any losses in the service of an alliance that's suspect to begin with.
And at a meta level, the exchange between Adaar and Bull that can follow it (the "You don't have to say Tal Vashoth like it's an insult" one) is one of my favourite bits of dialogue in the game, so I'd hate to have missed those lines.
I all-around love the fact that you could play a Qunari who hated the Qun. I especially loved being able to tell Gat he could go back to Seheron and tell the Qun leadership the Inquisitor thought their society was disgusting. It's gonna be hard to top playing an Adaar for me.
To be fair, there is a lot of dialogue and even a few codex entries early on in the game about just how massive the Destiny Ascension is and how large it's crew is. There's also a lot about how it's guns are more numerous and powerful than any and all of those attack ships. Namely, from a tactical standpoint, I saved it because it had the biggest gun to maybe be able to dent Sovereign.
The dialogue options though give a non-metagaming reason to think you're making the strategic choice at the time. In general they seemed to great take pains to cover any potential drawbacks of Paragon choices.
To me the Chargers were the proven asset. An alliance with a power that is largely unknown and hostile to your current way of life is a shaky alliance at best. Proven Assets or Shaky alliance. Another Drink with the Chargers!!!
I think it's one of the better quest in this game. It really sums up Bull's struggle for duty and individuality quite nicely. He, like the player, knows the moral superiority of saving more lives, but he just can't let his men die. Similarly, holding our own individuality above the common good is selfish and ultimately unproductive, yet we chose to do it anyway because just can't let it go.
The dialogue options though give a non-metagaming reason to think you're making the strategic choice at the time. In general they seemed to great take pains to cover any potential drawbacks of Paragon choices.
Idunno, I just went with Ashley's statement from the first time you see it "It has more firepower than the entire Earth Fleet." *shrug*
My spitefulness eclipses my concern for the Chargers, so f*** the Qunari. If letting the Dreadnaught explode stops Iron Bull from sending reports and spares me from ever having to read the word Tallis than I will take it about 80% of the time. Not to mention my Inquisitor at the time was a mage, and you just know they have a massive hard-on at the thought of cutting out your tongue (or just killing you, more likely).
Although wouldn't the "higher ideals" choice be to save all of the people on the dreadnaught?
Of course, they'll pull a Mass Effect and screw the people who took the hard 'save more people choice'. (My Paragons all chose "Concentrate on Sovereign," figuring the lives of all the troops in the attack ships were a bigger deal than three replaceable councillors. Of course, in ME2 they had to then make the Council's ship have more people on it than the others combined... Just wait for it to be revealed that the entire hill was dug out and full of Chargers and that the ship was piloted by a single qunari.)
That's another thing, there have got to be a couple hundred people on that Dreadnaught, people with lives, friends, loved ones, who are counting on the ground team to protect them.
Thinking back to DA2, dreadnaught was the same class ship the Arishok and his forces were in when they crashed at Kirkwall. They had 'a few hundred men', so assuming every member of the crew made it to shore, we're talking about at least three hundred qunari on that shp. Maybe the Arishok was traveling heavy due to the nature of his mission, but you're still probably looking at a hundred or more people on that crew.
And I'm supposed to save the six members of the chargers because... why? Because they know my name? Because we had drinks one time? That's the motivation for me to give them special exception and not hold them to the same standard I hold every other soldier under my command?
I don't think so.
How can I let the Chargers die after I shared drinks with them and got to know them? How can I let Krem die after seeing the look that Iron Bull gives him afterwards?
Sorry Qun, I don't care about the alliance when I have the chance to save my friends (or friends of my friends).
Btw the mission is quite stupid... Just few Venatori running to the hills where the Chargers are. A couple of arrows and a fireball can crash them! And the dreadnought? You send only one dreadnought? Besides, the alliance isn't that crucial for the result of the whole game.
Similarly, holding our own individuality above the common good is selfish and ultimately unproductive, yet we chose to do it anyway because just can't let it go.
Selfish? yeah, as a matter of definition. Ulitmately unproductive? Eh, as an American I'll just have to say productiveness is in the eye of the beholder. Many societies that put the common good above individual reward (and the motivation that brings) don't have super-good track records for productivity.
What is it with Bioware and not letting us have our cake and eat it too?!
The cake is a lie.
There is another question: Is Rob Stark King in Denerim? If so, of course you let Denerim burn. If not, then you screw over the Chargers.
.And I'm supposed to save the six members of the chargers because... why? Because they know my name? Because we had drinks one time? That's the motivation for me to give them special exception and not hold them to the same standard I hold every other soldier under my command?
I don't think so.
Because they're your men? because they have your loyalty and service, and you should in turn look out for them? Because the people in that ship are enemies of the societies your followers are trying to save and uphold, even if you yourself don't care about them?
I'm not saying treating it all as a numbers game isn't noble in it's own way. But their are some ways of thinking, and certainly some code of honor and ethics, that would consider leaving your men to die for a ship full of strangers from an enemy nation to be an honorless act.
Personally, I can't come up with a logical reason to save the Chargers.
The Qunari dreadnaught is filled with sailors depending on the Chargers to hold their position. Are their lives worth less than the Chargers? Even if you don't care for the Qunari alliance, there are more lives to be saved by saving the dreadnaught.
As for Bull personally, I think he still belongs in the Qun. And believe me, I am NO fan of the Qun. I find it repulsive and in most ways immoral from an individualistic viewpoint. But it's all Bull has ever known, even if he wasn't your typical Qunari. And belief in something, even if it's flawed and broken, is better than no belief at all. At least in my opinion.
Spoiler
Sorry, found that gif, had to post it somewhere. You my friend, had the honour.
Okay. 
Because they're your men? because they have your loyalty and service, and you should in turn look out for them? Because the people in that ship are enemies of the societies your followers are trying to save and uphold, even if you yourself don't care about them?
I'm not saying treating it all as a numbers game isn't noble in it's own way. But their are some ways of thinking, and certainly some code of honor and ethics, that would consider leaving your men to die for a ship full of strangers from an enemy nation to be an honorless act.
I'm not trying to save a society. I am trying to save Thedas, and that includes the Qunari.
And yes, they are my men. And I expect my men to complete the mission, knowing that doing so may well cost them their own lives.
The Chargers knew that. They didn't break ranks, they didn't run. They died with their horns up.
That's another thing, there have got to be a couple hundred people on that Dreadnaught, people with lives, friends, loved ones, who are counting on the ground team to protect them.
.
Friends, sure, but loved ones? The Qunari don't have parents or children or partners, and it's the society that supports its members, not the families, so killing one person is killing that person - any other nation or group and I'd be with you on that, but killing one person on a Qunari dreadnought isn't doing the same family-wide damage that it would for nearly any other group.
In a lot of ways I think that's to their society's credit, but it does change the sympathetic impact of a single death in a way that doesn't do them any favours if you're taking that social/familial piece into account.
They have loved ones. They just don't have sex with them.
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