1. The Qun is *insert puking noise here* and that's all I have to say about that.
2. I like the Wheel of Fortune card more than the Ten of Swords card.
3. Saving the Chargers allows Iron Bull to become Tal-Vashoth, therefore no longer *insert puking noise here*.
4. Tal-Vashoth Bull gets to play mental chess with Solas.
5. Also, like me, my Inquisitor is a sentimental fool. Who in their right minds put her in charge in the first place?
I'm not trying to save a society. I am trying to save Thedas, and that includes the Qunari.
And yes, they are my men. And I expect my men to complete the mission, knowing that doing so may well cost them their own lives.
The Chargers knew that. They didn't break ranks, they didn't run. They died with their horns up.
That's fine. I said as much. But it's not the only way to see the scenario, which was what you maintained.
The way I saw it is that the Qunari had bad intel on the number of forces they wanted help with, and now my (very valuable) men were going to die to maintain a dubious alliance with a society I hated and would rather die than give more power to.
So I called the retreat.
Also: F**k the Qunari.
I'm not trying to save a society. I am trying to save Thedas, and that includes the Qunari.
And yes, they are my men. And I expect my men to complete the mission, knowing that doing so may well cost them their own lives.
The Chargers knew that. They didn't break ranks, they didn't run. They died with their horns up.
There is a quote from Risen 2 that I think is appropriate with what you just said.
"When it comes to saving the world, it means saving all of it, and not just the parts that you agree with."
They have loved ones. They just don't have sex with them.
Didn't one of the Bioware writers for Dragon Age say they hated those choices because everyone always took that option instead of the lesser choices? I think it was Gaider talking about the Redcliffe choice but don't quote me on that. It's early and it probably never happened.
Are you talking about the choice with Leandra in DA2? They originally had it so that it was possible to save Hawke's mother, but they changed it so that she always dies. There's a thread where David Gaider talks about it. He said the problem wasn't so much that people always chose that option, but that people would reload to make sure they saved her if they didn't, meaning they thought that was the "right" way to play it.
Gaider has also talked about being disappointed by the fact that there are no costs/consequences for choosing the "best" solution for Redcliffe in Origins (i.e. saving Conor by getting help from the mages).
"When it comes to saving the world, it means saving all of it, and not just the parts that you agree with."
Unless it means saving the Templars, in which case to hell with those guys.
I'm kidding around. My point is that one could argue that they aren't just trying to save the current world, but also trying to make the world better, which in their opinion could entail ... fewer followers of the Qun.
I like Krem, I'd rather he didn't die.
But really, I was an archer last playthrough. Those guys were within range, hell I've shot people further away. I could have evened the odds of that fight. -w-
Are you talking about the choice with Leandra in DA2? They originally had it so that it was possible to save Hawke's mother, but they changed it so that she always dies. There's a thread where David Gaider talks about it. He said the problem wasn't so much that people always chose that option, but that people would reload to make sure they saved her if they didn't, meaning they thought that was the "right" way to play it.
Gaider has also talked about being disappointed by the fact that there are no costs/consequences for choosing the "best" solution for Redcliffe in Origins (i.e. saving Conor by getting help from the mages).
I see it in the forums all the time, it seems. There are a lot of players (not saying they are wrong, just that they have a different playstyle than me) that aren't interested in emergent gameplay. They just want to know how to get the "best" outcome and will meticulously manipulate their playthrough so they can get the outcome they want, rather than organically deal with the consequences of their actions.
It's probably part of the reason that this game feels like you cannot fail. Because fewer people choose to accept failure, so why bother to make it an option.
There is a quote from Risen 2 that I think is appropriate with what you just said.
"When it comes to saving the world, it means saving all of it, and not just the parts that you agree with."
The fact that the Qunari and ******* countries like Tevinter are saved by me saving the world is a price I can live with. Doesn't mean I need to go out of my way to do so. I'm also saving rapists, murderers and tax evaders too, does that mean I need to be pro- tax evasion?
Didn't one of the Bioware writers for Dragon Age say they hated those choices because everyone always took that option instead of the lesser choices? I think it was Gaider talking about the Redcliffe choice but don't quote me on that. It's early and it probably never happened.
Haha, jokes on them, I kill Isolde every time. Every. Time.
TEAGAN! TEEEGAAWWWN!
Also I save the chargers. I have no idea what an alliance with an orthodox religion like the Qun entails, but as the Inquisition belongs to another religion, I don't think the relationship could be anything other than short term at best.
Also the whole "saving the world angle" is a joke right? I can easily not save that battleship and still save the world from Corypheus.
My Inquisitor was a Vashoth mage. The only reason she even entertained the idea of the alliance was because she trusted Bull. But when push came to shove, she knew the Chargers and she knew Bull. That was enough for her.
She ordered the retreat and the chargers survived.
I don't regret it either. Most alliances in the game didn't feel like they amounted to much if anything. There wasn't a clear count of "War Assets" like in ME3 where I knew where I was and where I needed to be for a "good ending." If they garnered more than influence and the occasional item I more often than not sold, than maybe I would reconsider. Maybe. With a different character though. Not the Vashoth mage.
I save the Chargers because the Masterwork Archon Staff is bad.
My character had serious doubts about the 'alliance' with the Qunari (being a noble from the Free Marches, I'm sure she has heard some nice stories about them, for example from their landing in Kirkwall), and was at first also very suspicious about Iron Bull. Having to choose between a - in her eyes - shaky alliance or a group of people you've learned to be trustworthy? And how could she know that the ship would explode instead of sink?
And for what it's worth: the first meeting with the chargers shows that there are more than just the six you get to drink with, as Krem reports that there are 5-6 wounded, and he mentions various groups on top of that.
I let the alliance burn like the Usher song.
I think that whole mission is poorly written. It's like we can literally take on those newbs ourselves - I mean, we are killing High Dragons and ish- and assist the Chargers but noooooo, BW has to shoehorn a "tough" choice into the equation. Gameplay-wise, it made no sense.
I happened to like the Chargers - especially Krem - and getting to know Iron Bull really showed how conflicted he is as a person with duties to the Qun and yet a personal conviction to the people he's attached to. I mean, being willing to become a Tal-Vashoth just so that he can be loyal to the people who truly matter to him is a very profound step thematically. So yeah, the first time I saved them. I probably will again. And again. Especially since my Qunari Inquisitor is already Tal-Vashoth, which likely means that Iron Bull and I even being involved let alone associated with each other may have some negative repercussions in the Qun.
I think the whole "alliance" thing really isn't implemented properly because it's hard to see how getting their support - or anyone else's - actually influences later decisions. It seems very superficial.
I'd rather have reliable skirmishers that are loyal to me and will follow orders than a fleet I can't really count on the moment they don't like something.
Have a merry kablooie, Qunari!
Screw those guys...
Such choices make for a far better experience though, two hard choices is better than three choices with one of the choices being the clear best option. I guarantee if you get your hands dirty you'll come out of the experience loving your character more, because those choices made him/her unique.
I'd rather that than a third option that is there just to make me feel good for the entire experience.
I wasn't about to Bull's friends die, and I am rather fond of the Chargers and their eccentricities (plus, Krem's cool), so yes, I let the dreadnought explode. The qunari might view their people as faceless cogs in a greater machine who can easily be replaced, but I don't share that particular viewpoint with them.
The Chargers are professional soldiers. They knew the risks.
The Inquisition needs allies, even the Qun, or we wouldn't have been on that mission to begin with. Fate of the world vs a couple of nice mercs? I'll raise my glass to the departed while trying to figure out why I can't kick that godawful bard out of my castle.
Reliable special forces, or unrealiable fleet...
Well... It's your call.
I save the Qunari every time. While it kills the Chargers and might not be the best for Bull, scuttling the alliance means the Venatori spy network continues and their plot to burn down half of Denerim succeeds. 6 guys versus an entire spy network and half of Denerim's population seems an easy choice. Though I wish there was an option for the Inquisitor and/or one ally to run to them and intercept the Venatori. I even had Dorian's focus haste ability and thought that would factor in.
Guest_Dandelion_Wine_*
Here' the thing.
1. You have no idea at the time what the Venatori are doing. So it's not a choice about Denerim.
2. You know the Chargers personally by this point.
3. Do you trust the Qunari after Cory is gone?
- For me the alliance wasn't as important to me than Bull and the Chargers. And even after the loss of Denerim, I wouldn't change my mind in a redo. However I do blame the Qunari for the loss of their ship and the Loss of Denerim.
Here's why, their intel was flawed on that beach, as such it was their fault the choice was made. As for Denerim they choose to withhold that intel which could have saved lives, hell if they were smart they would have saved Denerim and made sure everyone knew it.
1. It's not a choice about Denerim, but it is a choice about what you would be able to do with with qunari resources at your disposal, the lives you'd be able to save, the destruction you'd be able to prevent, and the damage you'd be able to do to your enemies. Denerim is the answer, but at the time of the decision, the hypotheticals are even bigger than that.
2. Yes. That's also irrelevant.
3. Again, irrelevant. I trust them so long as we have Corypheus as a common enemy. I'll have the luxury about worrying about what comes after when we get to that point. And I think that the possibility of trusting them afterwards is going to be a lot more viable if we actually work together in the mean time. They'll definitely be my enemies if I default on the deal, but if I uphold my end, they may just end up being my friends.
On one hand, I like the Chargers (Dalish, Grim, Krem, that Orlesian Elf were all cool) and I like Bull: I don't want his friends to die.
But in the Fade, you see his greatest fear is madness. Losing himself. The Qun can remind him what he is, what he is good at. It gives him order, directions, and purpose. He knows the Chargers were willing to die for him, and Cole let him know that Krem's final thoughts were "Horns pointing up."... He didn't die feeling betrayed. They all must have understood.
From a pragmatic point of view, a Qunari alliance is extremely beneficial. Not only will it not kill a dreadnought (And everyone on board, while also allowing Tevinter to win the skirmish) but it gives us access to a number of Tallis missions that would otherwise never be done: Causing tons of chaos in Denerim. So yeah, a lot of people get hurt if you save the Chargers. Small sacrifice for a good cause.
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