Greagoir says: "Thus spoke the Prophet Andraste as she cast down the Magisters of the Tevinter Imperium."
But Andraste didn't cast them down, she was burned at the stake because of Maferath's treachery. Her actions greatly weakened the Imperium and gave rise to the Chantry but she was not there to see the fall of the Imperium. In fact, Archon Hessarian was the first one converted, when he put his sword through her heart while she was burning as an act of mercy.
Am I missing something here?
Not really, Andraste may have been a real person but the legend of her exploits has clearly grown over time. I suppose it might be fair to say that the end result of Andraste's revolt against the Imperium did weaken them and in all likelihood cost them both influence and lands.
Basically the best way to read the Chantry is to imagine that just about everything they say does have a fairly strong basis in fact but that they also pick and choose which facts to focus on in order to make the point that best serves their own political power; just the way everyone else in Thedas does.
Gregoir says: "Thus spoke the Prophet Andraste as she cast down the Magisters of the Tevinter Imperium."
But Andraste didn't cast them down, she was burned at the stake because of Maferath's treachery. Her actions greatly weakened the Imperium and gave rise to the Chantry but she was not there to see the fall of the Imperium. In fact, Archon Hessarian was the first one converted, when he put his sword through her heart while she was burning as an act of mercy.
Am I missing something here?
The Imperium never has really "fallen." But they no longer cover the known world, and while that's partially because they lost a lot of military power fighting off the Blights, Andraste did more to weaken them than possibly any other one person. (Unless we either have one Arishok to point to who was responsible for most of the damage the Qunari wrought on Tevinter, or choose to label the Qun as an organism.)
True. Though the quote Greagoir brings is from the Chant of Light itself. So the Andraste may have actually said those words. But the circumstances should've been quite different than what Greagoir makes them to be. I expected a more firm grasp on Chantry teachings by the Knight-Commander of the Ferelden's Circle of Magi
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^ I think you're taking what he's saying out of context. The Magisters of Tevinter had conquered and enslaved most of the known world at the time. While the Blights had weakened them, Andraste and her influence over her husband and her followers exploited their weaknesses better than anyone before or since then. They broke Tevinter's iron grip on the world, and freed about half the territories under their grasp. This snowballed into Tevinter losing yet more of their territories, until the Imperium now makes up only about 1/5th of the Thedas map instead of the majority of it.
Andraste "cast down the Magisters of the Tevinter Imperium" in that she cast them down from being the rulers of the known world. The fact that most of Thedas follows the Chantry's anti-magic sentiment over Tevinter's "magic is might" way of life speaks volumes about how much the world has changed and how much Andraste succeeded in casting them down. (At least, during that time and place in Origins.)
Ah, I see, so he by "cast down" he means "undermined their power greatly". I don't know, maybe my knowledge of English betrays me here, but I got the impression that it was a line said at a certain decisive victory. Mostly that impression comes from the part "as she cast down" because I think that refers more to a specific key event, rather than prolonged fighting against the Imperium. And I don't know of such events.
Ah, I see, so he by "cast down" he means "undermined their power greatly". I don't know, maybe my knowledge of English betrays me here, but I got the impression that it was a line said at a certain decisive victory. Mostly that impression comes from the part "as she cast down" because I think that refers more to a specific key event, rather than prolonged fighting against the Imperium. And I don't know of such events.
I can see where it's open to that interpretation, but I get the impression in context that it's meant to be a rallying cry she repeatedly used to rally her troops (probably including some mages, since her victory {limited though it is} becomes a tough sell if she doesn't have any) over a long campaign.
I've found the relevant part - Canticle of Transfigurations 1:2
I've found the relevant part - Canticle of Transfigurations 1:2
Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.Foul and corrupt are theyWho have taken His giftAnd turned it against His children.They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones.They shall find no rest in this worldOr beyond.So, you're saying that the first line (or first 4 lines) was the rallying cry Andraste used and Chantry added the next three lines to affirm its power over mages? That sounds interesting, and I can see that happening
That could actually all be part of an extended manifesto for Andraste's movement, rather than something tacked on when the Chantry started doing the Circles; "foul and corrupt" sounds like a decent description of what Andraste was fighting and wanted both mundanes and other mages to fight. Besides which I don't think the Chantry was doing much of what modern day Thedas does by the time that verse came into use. (I think the first Divine used it as part of her rationale for what a maleficar is, and I think it was only a later Divine who created the Circles.) Finally, if taken literally without considering the context of how it was eventually interpreted none of that supports what the Chantry is doing; it means that mages shouldn't bully people with magic, not that they should be subject to the Chantry any more than anyone else is.
I just looked over the whole Chant of Light. It's presented in a way like it was Andraste herself writing her thoughts down. Perhaps it is true, perhaps not, but there is no mention of the apostates in the Chant of Light.
The way I see it, maleficarum (in Andraste's world view) are mages who use their power to rule over others. It might include blood magic for direct manipulation of thoughts and actions and it also might not, like if magic is used to create fear in the hearts of the people or trick them into liking the leader. Her words were focused against oppression by the mages in general. The Chant of Light does not oppose blood magic, it opposes those who are obsessed with its power. It seems she thought very much alike Solas - "Magic is magic. It matters only in how it's used." and "... it's extremely powerful. Provided it remains a tool. Not a crutch... Nor a passion."
Interestingly, it was a former Tevinter magister who created the first Circle of Magi (according to the World of Thedas). But over time the Chantry twisted the Chant of Light to suit their own agenda. Maleficarum began to be equated with blood mages, apostate term appeared out of nowhere... The Tevinter Imperium rule was cruel but the Chantry attributed that cruelty entirely to the magic that the magisters used.
Thoughts?
I don't think that there is any doubt that the Chant, like all religious texts has evolved and grown from whatever the original form was, but unless I'm misremembering I could've sworn that we are flatly told that the Chant was adapted from Andraste's teachings and she didn't write it herself.
As for whether or not Andraste would agree with the Circle of Magi ... you know, considering that she is depicted as an escaped slave who led a rebellion against Trevinter AND that we are told that the Chantry basically forbidding all magic except for "keeping the enternal flames burning and maybe dusting the rafters" as one of the reasons the Mages demanded the Circles being formed I have a very hard time imagining even the early Chantry being "pro-mage". --- After all, the Chantry and Templars would have had to been policing the mages somehow for the foundation of the Circles story to make any sense at all.
That's where it gets confusing. On one hand we have History of the Circle describing mages being oppressed and pushing for independence. On the other hand, we have Nevarran Accord, based mostly on David Gaider's interviews and comments, which claims that "After the first Blight, the Chantry recognized the mages’ value in helping protect humanity and so sought a better solution". I think it would've been royally stupid to force mages to light candles after all the spells they unleashed upon the darkspawn in the First Blight. It is also weird because the Circles in Tevinter are prestigious academic institutions and not places of seclusion for mages.
As for Andraste herself, her views might've been quite different from that of even the early Chantry. According to the World of Thedas, Prima Guide and Sister Justine:
"A cult known as the Cult of the Maker grew out of the legend of Andraste's martrydom. The cult had no central leadership and its followers were oppressed. The clerics had to hide their lore from Tevinter magisters by way of ciphers and encoded scrolls. In -130 Ancient, cult practitioners organized Andraste's teachings into hymns, creating the Chant of Light and the cult popularity spread. The cult remained fragmented until it was formalized into the Chantry by Kordillus Drakon, the first Emperor of the newly formed Orlesian Empire".
After all that time, the views and texts could've been changed a lot of times. I base my thoughts on the Chant of Light itself, it doesn't condone magic or magic users per se but rather the oppression of magic and its hold over mages' minds.
I suppose I can see where you are coming from based off of the in-game lore, but I'm not sure that I get the same vibe from the Chant as you do, when I see the lines about magic and mages I see mostly condemnation and at best luck-warm tolerance as one from expect from a former slave of the Tevinter.
However, as you have rightfully pointed out, the early Chantry was just as fragmented as early Christianity was and it is entirely possible that Andraste's original message ... or even if she had one could have been twisted or lost.
Religious texts can rarely be taken at face value anyway.
Perhaps, but in Dragon Age one runs into the problem that a lot of the elements in the chant can be verified ... we know that Andraste was a historical person ... we know that the Black City exists ... and we know that the "miracles" described in the Chant are achievable through magic in effect if not in scale.
--- Now granted, we also know through some of our favorite immortal characters that the chant isn't the pure unvarnished truth either ... was the Black City already blighted before Trevinter? ... are the Blights much, much older then we think? ...
I just looked over the whole Chant of Light. It's presented in a way like it was Andraste herself writing her thoughts down. Perhaps it is true, perhaps not, but there is no mention of the apostates in the Chant of Light.
The way I see it, maleficarum (in Andraste's world view) are mages who use their power to rule over others. It might include blood magic for direct manipulation of thoughts and actions and it also might not, like if magic is used to create fear in the hearts of the people or trick them into liking the leader. Her words were focused against oppression by the mages in general. The Chant of Light does not oppose blood magic, it opposes those who are obsessed with its power. It seems she thought very much alike Solas - "Magic is magic. It matters only in how it's used." and "... it's extremely powerful. Provided it remains a tool. Not a crutch... Nor a passion."
Interestingly, it was a former Tevinter magister who created the first Circle of Magi (according to the World of Thedas). But over time the Chantry twisted the Chant of Light to suit their own agenda. Maleficarum began to be equated with blood mages, apostate term appeared out of nowhere... The Tevinter Imperium rule was cruel but the Chantry attributed that cruelty entirely to the magic that the magisters used.
Thoughts?
The chantry doesn't teach that magic is 'evil' or a 'sin' but that it was the pride of magisters that caused the downfall of man. A sin not just mages suffer from.
A line from Inquisition, in response when asked about a Mother's stance on magic (overheard speaking to a soldier--she tells him it's no more evil than his sword).
I think that quote shows a disconnect between "official dogma" and "practical teachings" ... especially considering the historical references that we have.
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