Here's a thought, each area has objectives that can only be completed in a certain order (the main plot events). Once one of these are complete, every area in the game is rescaled to retain difficulty for your current level?
I would go into further detail, but find it kinda hard since this forum is not meant for spoliers.
What is the point of leveling?
Débuté par
spelldreamer
, janv. 26 2010 04:26
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#27
Posté 27 janvier 2010 - 12:04
merak43
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have anyone tryed the game and choose NOT to level up the char and and the npc:s played the entier game that way with out dying?
if that is possible the it is indead pointless
if that is possible the it is indead pointless
#28
Posté 27 janvier 2010 - 12:09
jo31
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i agree with op and dont like the concept of level scaling in general. its just a lazy way to make the game non linear. fwiw though, at least in DAO you still have some sense of progression, because at least enemies dont scale to the point where fights get harder as you gain levels (at least if you dont just click buttons when you level up).
the worst thing about the concept itself is, imo, that it takes away a lot of the appeal of rpg kind of games. you never get the chance to take huge risks to potentially be able to progress a lot faster later, it basically doesnt matter what you do and when you do it.
a simple example: imagine Orzammar would be a high level (15+) area. sure you wouldnt last long in the Deep Roads if you went there straight after the start of the game, but maybe at some point well before level 15 you might be able get there with lots of preparation/luck. in which case you could buy awesome stuff (provided you have the monies obv.) long before you´re "supposed" to.
so in short, imo level scaling removes lots of opportunities for players to feel they accomplished something special, which in the end makes the experience less memorable than it could be.
edit: possible spoilers removed
the worst thing about the concept itself is, imo, that it takes away a lot of the appeal of rpg kind of games. you never get the chance to take huge risks to potentially be able to progress a lot faster later, it basically doesnt matter what you do and when you do it.
a simple example: imagine Orzammar would be a high level (15+) area. sure you wouldnt last long in the Deep Roads if you went there straight after the start of the game, but maybe at some point well before level 15 you might be able get there with lots of preparation/luck. in which case you could buy awesome stuff (provided you have the monies obv.) long before you´re "supposed" to.
so in short, imo level scaling removes lots of opportunities for players to feel they accomplished something special, which in the end makes the experience less memorable than it could be.
edit: possible spoilers removed
Modifié par jo31, 27 janvier 2010 - 12:12 .
#29
Posté 27 janvier 2010 - 12:10
Coldcall01
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spelldreamer wrote...
When all your surroundings level with you. Would it perhaps not have been better to abandon levels instead. It seems silly to me.
Well it doesnt all level equally around you. Various quests have a minimum baddie level, so your character will have an easier/harder time depending on your level and and skills/talents/spells.
Anyways, no i think its a crap idea to take away levelling from an RPG, and DAO is an RPG, much more so that ME2 by the sounds of it.
Whats funny is i bought DAO to while away the time before ME2 was released but now I love DAO as a traditional style RPG, and seeing quite a bit of negative comments re ME2, i may not bother with it.
#30
Posté 27 janvier 2010 - 12:13
Coldcall01
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MprezdNZ wrote...
So you don't want a sense of progression?
What is it with you? Every time someone says something you answer back with a question which is totally irrelevant to their intial point. Do you have any concept of Greek logic?
If someone says something like "i hate bananas" you'll say "so you dont like to eat?".
Dont you see how stupid your straw man arguments are?
#31
Posté 27 janvier 2010 - 12:16
Coldcall01
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To the OP. For instance try Orzammar straight out of Ostagar on Hard, and I think you'll see why its important you manage your levelling.
#32
Posté 27 janvier 2010 - 12:56
Matshelge
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Well, lets not get ahead of ourselves.
The leveling-scaling system here is nothing like say, Oblivion.
There is a min-max scale used here, where min and max levels apply, and boss characters have other min max stats. So it balances out (Same system used in BG2 btw, so all you haters gotta respect)
And a lot of you have already said "sense of progression" and while that is true, it also has a lot to do with building your character. Making Alister into a tank is a choice, having that choice makes you feel more in controll, if he dies, you feel it's a mistake you can fix by focusing more on one stat over another, and not just "****ing game fault".
Giving the player this sort of controll is what makes DA:O a western RPG, and not the run of the mill JRPG. Control, choices, consequenses ... another word starting with c, thats what makes DA:O so good.
The leveling-scaling system here is nothing like say, Oblivion.
There is a min-max scale used here, where min and max levels apply, and boss characters have other min max stats. So it balances out (Same system used in BG2 btw, so all you haters gotta respect)
And a lot of you have already said "sense of progression" and while that is true, it also has a lot to do with building your character. Making Alister into a tank is a choice, having that choice makes you feel more in controll, if he dies, you feel it's a mistake you can fix by focusing more on one stat over another, and not just "****ing game fault".
Giving the player this sort of controll is what makes DA:O a western RPG, and not the run of the mill JRPG. Control, choices, consequenses ... another word starting with c, thats what makes DA:O so good.
#33
Posté 27 janvier 2010 - 02:38
fluxcage
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merak43 wrote...
have anyone tryed the game and choose NOT to level up the char and and the npc:s played the entier game that way with out dying?
if that is possible the it is indead pointless
People have played and won Baldur's Gate (the original) without gaining a single experience point (and clearly never leveling up)!
Not meaning to attack your post, but I wouldn't say Baldur's Gate is pointless.
#34
Posté 27 janvier 2010 - 03:01
merak43
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fluxcage wrote...
merak43 wrote...
have anyone tryed the game and choose NOT to level up the char and and the npc:s played the entier game that way with out dying?
if that is possible the it is indead pointless
People have played and won Baldur's Gate (the original) without gaining a single experience point (and clearly never leveling up)!
Not meaning to attack your post, but I wouldn't say Baldur's Gate is pointless.
i did not mean baldursgate i just meant that all those that play DAO should try and play the entier game without levelup anyone and see if it is possible, if they have an easy time with it then yes it is pointless, but i suspect it is realy hard to do this. making it not pointless to level up.
#35
Posté 27 janvier 2010 - 03:02
Gipp3r
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fluxcage wrote...
merak43 wrote...
have anyone tryed the game and choose NOT to level up the char and and the npc:s played the entier game that way with out dying?
if that is possible the it is indead pointless
People have played and won Baldur's Gate (the original) without gaining a single experience point (and clearly never leveling up)!
Not meaning to attack your post, but I wouldn't say Baldur's Gate is pointless.
Wohw, completing BG1 without ever leveling, thats impressive.
However just because someone can complete the game without leveling dosen't meen the levelsvaling is broken, it just means that that one person is extremly good at the game.
I personaly think the scaling in DA workd beautifully, espacially compared to Oblivion, that game severy crippled itself, sinve it was actually easier if you didn't level up.
In DA it works differently, sure, there's level scaling, but the game will not be easier if you choose not to level up
#36
Posté 27 janvier 2010 - 03:06
Krocsyldiphic
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If you don't want level scaling, you need different gamerules.
You need a rules that are more real-worldish.
That means, a few arrows shot by anyone will bring even the best fighter down. That means, if 5 fighters with llittle experience gang up on a super experienced warrior, he will go down. Simply because he can't defend all 4 sides of his.
In this case, where a level 20 fighter can not defeat 50 level 10 fighters, you don't need level scaling. Because each encounter will be partially challenging, no matter the level difference.
You will have it easier in some reasons and you will have it harder in others.
Basically, it's high fantasy vs low fantasy characters. If you use low fantasy characters that are very realworldish and can't burn down armies every 10 seconds, you don't need to scale.
Actually, I like this kind of gameplay. Where you improve your character very, very slowly. Where two level 10 characters are a real challenge for one level 20 character.
You need a rules that are more real-worldish.
That means, a few arrows shot by anyone will bring even the best fighter down. That means, if 5 fighters with llittle experience gang up on a super experienced warrior, he will go down. Simply because he can't defend all 4 sides of his.
In this case, where a level 20 fighter can not defeat 50 level 10 fighters, you don't need level scaling. Because each encounter will be partially challenging, no matter the level difference.
You will have it easier in some reasons and you will have it harder in others.
Basically, it's high fantasy vs low fantasy characters. If you use low fantasy characters that are very realworldish and can't burn down armies every 10 seconds, you don't need to scale.
Actually, I like this kind of gameplay. Where you improve your character very, very slowly. Where two level 10 characters are a real challenge for one level 20 character.
#37
Posté 27 janvier 2010 - 03:18
Ygolnac
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In my opinion the problem is not lvl scaling, is to keep the fights interesting throughout the whole game. DA:O is thge only game i know is more difficult in the first quarter thatn in the last. Some battles in the ishal tower might be more diffucult than the final boss itself in Hard or Nightmare mode.
While this is good becouse you feel you made progression it makes the game a bit boring for replay issues.
By fortune you can download many mods that increases the difficulty and improves enemy AI that really saved the day in replayability regards for me.
While this is good becouse you feel you made progression it makes the game a bit boring for replay issues.
By fortune you can download many mods that increases the difficulty and improves enemy AI that really saved the day in replayability regards for me.
#38
Posté 27 janvier 2010 - 03:21
DreGregoire
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Leveling gives people a sense of accomplishment in a personal way, if your issue is that everything should be easier. Well... isn't that the purpose of the difficulty level? If you want battles that are easier play on the lowest setting if you want them harder torc it up. 
I was pleasantly surprised when I started with a higher level character and I saw that everybody else had leveled up too, it was fun to see the how the different NPC's had different level armor. My purpose of leveling up was simply to have access to a wider range of abilities, earlier on in the game. So for my purposes having a game that levels up with me and still allows me the freedom to go where I want is idea without the restriction of getting creamed because I chose the wrong area to go to first
I was pleasantly surprised when I started with a higher level character and I saw that everybody else had leveled up too, it was fun to see the how the different NPC's had different level armor. My purpose of leveling up was simply to have access to a wider range of abilities, earlier on in the game. So for my purposes having a game that levels up with me and still allows me the freedom to go where I want is idea without the restriction of getting creamed because I chose the wrong area to go to first
Modifié par DreGregoire, 27 janvier 2010 - 03:25 .
#39
Posté 27 janvier 2010 - 03:25
Yxiomel
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Granularity - the higher your level, the greater the degree of control you have over your character. Enemies may have the same power potential, but as your level increases, your capacity to optimise your power distribution makes you more effectively powerful.
That said, this does fall down in DA, on Warriors in particular, who have too few talents; making builds degenerate to weapon choice.
That said, this does fall down in DA, on Warriors in particular, who have too few talents; making builds degenerate to weapon choice.
#40
Posté 27 janvier 2010 - 04:24
icewind123
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I don't like level scaling, it's stupid seeing 4 level 10 standard mobs being as strong as one Level3 ogre.
I don't see much of a progression or suspense if my character doesn't meet enemies who are either vastly superior or vastly underpowered. I can play the game in one rush, there's no need to backtrack or use all avaiable resources to get past a point.
The first thing I did with Oblivion was to shelf it until mods came out to make up for the retarded level system which scaled even wild life to levels, encounter a bear with level 1 and some time later with 10 and he would be 4 times stronger.
I really liked the Gothic series for that. The weakest enemies (Scavenger) would be able to kill you in a pair and you had be really careful because like every other monster would kill you with two hits. Once you got some equipment and experience you would try on a little stronger mobs, e.g. Bloodflies and survive with a bloody nose.
Getting that previously hard enemy to fall with tactics and earned equipment+experience, that was satisfaction. Imagine seeing that guard in the farm forcing you to share out water for the farmers as a noob every new day, beating you and robbing you of your stuff if you didn't comply.
Then one day you would have kicked the hell out of him because you've gotten stronger, bought some armor and nice weapon, learned some new sword tricks.
And even then there would always be mobs kicking you back to oblivion if you weren't prepared.
In DAO I can kill the main boss with level 10, what sort of challenge is that? None.
I don't see much of a progression or suspense if my character doesn't meet enemies who are either vastly superior or vastly underpowered. I can play the game in one rush, there's no need to backtrack or use all avaiable resources to get past a point.
The first thing I did with Oblivion was to shelf it until mods came out to make up for the retarded level system which scaled even wild life to levels, encounter a bear with level 1 and some time later with 10 and he would be 4 times stronger.
I really liked the Gothic series for that. The weakest enemies (Scavenger) would be able to kill you in a pair and you had be really careful because like every other monster would kill you with two hits. Once you got some equipment and experience you would try on a little stronger mobs, e.g. Bloodflies and survive with a bloody nose.
Getting that previously hard enemy to fall with tactics and earned equipment+experience, that was satisfaction. Imagine seeing that guard in the farm forcing you to share out water for the farmers as a noob every new day, beating you and robbing you of your stuff if you didn't comply.
Then one day you would have kicked the hell out of him because you've gotten stronger, bought some armor and nice weapon, learned some new sword tricks.
And even then there would always be mobs kicking you back to oblivion if you weren't prepared.
In DAO I can kill the main boss with level 10, what sort of challenge is that? None.
Modifié par icewind123, 27 janvier 2010 - 04:33 .
#41
Posté 27 janvier 2010 - 04:48
Paromlin
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icewind123 wrote...
In DAO I can kill the main boss with level 10, what sort of challenge is that? None.
And what's even more ridiculous is that many enemies in DA become even harder to defeat as you level up.
***
People should stop saying how Oblivion's level scaling is oh so awful and DA's is something.. ah beautiful and well balanced. <roll eyes> When in practice they're the same thing. I'll attribute this misconception about DA's level scaling to indoctrination from Bioware and co.
Do you have any idea of the scaling ranges in DA? Lothering's scaling range is 5-15 (!) Lothering...
It makes the vast majority of encounters scale exactly to your level, just like in Oblivion.
#42
Posté 27 janvier 2010 - 05:04
Ratnix
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icewind123 wrote...I don't like level scaling, it's stupid seeing 4 level 10 standard mobs being as strong as one Level3 ogre.
And that right there is just the fact that they just don't have hundreds of differents mobs.
If they would have made it so you had Mob A from lvl range 1-3 then taken the same Mob A, gave it a new skin, and a new name with the increased skills for levels 4-5, it would have seemed like there was some progression.
But as it seems to me from the complaints I have been reading, people don't like the fact that they fight the same mob A at level 1 as they do at level 20 just with increased skills.
I'm not a programer or have anything to do with the computer industry, but it seems to me, aside from making a game linear, trying to make a game that had all those different mobs, even if they are the same just with new skins and names, and making the game place those mob approprately where you are at, at your level, would just be a nightmare to program.
#43
Posté 27 janvier 2010 - 06:32
Sadinar
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Leveling allows you to use a wider range of abilities among all of your party members and combine them in more creative ways to deal with more interesting and difficult encounters. If the game stayed the same from level one to twenty, then leveling really would be meaningless and the game would be quite dull. Fortunately, leveling is not pointless and the game is rather enjoyable. That said, I'm pretty sure most people saying leveling is pointless just want to either argue for the sake of arguing or troll.
#44
Posté 27 janvier 2010 - 06:35
Kwonnern
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You get more options with each level, improving skills and abilities.
#45
Posté 27 janvier 2010 - 06:44
spelldreamer
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I dont think that it would be very tough to have a lot of different mobs with different strenghts....most of the RPG's out there have precise that.
By the way I think this has become a good thread, and I will make sure in the future not to buy games with levelscaling.
4 reasons while levelscaling is useless.
1: There more or less is no such thing as a strong or a weak mob. You cannot go tell your friends. I just fought and defeated an ogre it was awesome, because you can do that as level 3 or as level 25, it does not matter.
2: Almost all feeling of improving your character disappears with levelscaling.
3: There will never be very easy or impossible fights, they will all be average, maybe some of them a little harder than average and some a little easier than average...but avarage none the less.
4: You never feel you really accomplished something by killing an enemy, because...well the enemy is adjusted to your strenght. Actually u did not kill an enemy...because there IS no (spoon) enemy. Just an opponent that is an reflection of your own strenght.
By the way I think this has become a good thread, and I will make sure in the future not to buy games with levelscaling.
4 reasons while levelscaling is useless.
1: There more or less is no such thing as a strong or a weak mob. You cannot go tell your friends. I just fought and defeated an ogre it was awesome, because you can do that as level 3 or as level 25, it does not matter.
2: Almost all feeling of improving your character disappears with levelscaling.
3: There will never be very easy or impossible fights, they will all be average, maybe some of them a little harder than average and some a little easier than average...but avarage none the less.
4: You never feel you really accomplished something by killing an enemy, because...well the enemy is adjusted to your strenght. Actually u did not kill an enemy...because there IS no (spoon) enemy. Just an opponent that is an reflection of your own strenght.
#46
Posté 27 janvier 2010 - 06:52
Paromlin
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Kwonnern wrote...
You get more options with each level, improving skills and abilities.
So do enemies in a level scaled system.
It's another thing that Bioware's AI sucks so enemies can't use their abilities to their fullest potential.
#47
Posté 27 janvier 2010 - 07:09
wonko33
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Paromlin wrote...
It's another thing that Bioware's AI sucks so enemies can't use their abilities to their fullest potential.
If they did people would whine about being stunned/frozen/knocked back all the time, while not bothering to use powers like indomitable.
#48
Posté 27 janvier 2010 - 07:14
RedSocialKnight
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There's an easy story justification for level scaling here: As time passes and your characters become stronger, the Blight is becoming more severe. So it makes sense that each area you explore has darkspawn stronger than the area before, whatever order you explored them in.
(This argument doesn't really work for non-Darkspawn enemies, though.)
(This argument doesn't really work for non-Darkspawn enemies, though.)
#49
Posté 27 janvier 2010 - 07:21
spelldreamer
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I think that is very flawed logic. That would be the same as saying that the more cats breed in the world the more dangerous they will be...at first like cats...but then suddenly the cats fight like lions.
and by the way the darkspawn dont get stronger as you explore areas...they get stronger as you get stronger.
and by the way the darkspawn dont get stronger as you explore areas...they get stronger as you get stronger.
#50
Posté 27 janvier 2010 - 07:27
Forest03
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The point of levelling is part of the adventure itself. Progression is the very soul of RPG's, be it for the narrative or for your character's power. What's the point in levelling? Well, what would be the point in giving a player all skill sets and all the best equipment right from the beginning? This goes completely against the concept of the adventure and the character development/growth.
If you want everything handed to you so you can simply kick butt in every direction, I suggest downloading the Warden's Arena mod. It starts you off at level 25 with all skills, your choice of party members from over two dozen NPC's, and a set of 9 *extremely* difficult (even for DAO veterans) arenas. But enough advertising...
As for linear vs. non-linear gameplay, there is a recommended sequence in which to visit each location. Even with level scaling, there is an upper and lower limit for the mobs in each region in DAO. Some bosses and unique creatures like dragons are the only exemption. You don't need to worry about coming across Genlocks that are as tough as Ogre Alphas.
If you find any too hard or too easy, then follow the suggested route. If things are still to easy, even on nightmare, there are mods for increasing difficulty.
Good luck.
If you want everything handed to you so you can simply kick butt in every direction, I suggest downloading the Warden's Arena mod. It starts you off at level 25 with all skills, your choice of party members from over two dozen NPC's, and a set of 9 *extremely* difficult (even for DAO veterans) arenas. But enough advertising...
As for linear vs. non-linear gameplay, there is a recommended sequence in which to visit each location. Even with level scaling, there is an upper and lower limit for the mobs in each region in DAO. Some bosses and unique creatures like dragons are the only exemption. You don't need to worry about coming across Genlocks that are as tough as Ogre Alphas.
If you find any too hard or too easy, then follow the suggested route. If things are still to easy, even on nightmare, there are mods for increasing difficulty.
Good luck.
